Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[Exterminas]

That was impressive.
Some well-made points that I would not have considered on my own in that well-defined phrasing.
Thank god for him.

 

[jmarquiso]

I wish we had an ACLU in England.

Wouldn't that be a BCLU or UKCLU?

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.

I am not getting aggressive. I am emphatic. I am not angry or upset with you at all. I am, in fact, enjoying the discussion.

Now, I get you saying it's insulting. The thing is though, if the worst thing society does to me as a privileged white male (and I agree with Lois CK when he says you really don't get a better starting hand than that) is remind me not to rape people, I think I can happily live with it. In a society where people are quick to imply a victim's fault in a rape, I dare say the reinforcement that the responsibility is the rapist's, not the victim's, is important.

Commercials like this actually do run in the UK, something I forgot to mention in the video. Often aimed at young, college-aged men, reminding them of the consequences of what they're doing, of how what may seem innocent to them looks terrible when viewed from an outsider's perspective. I think they are very useful reminders for the reasons I gave earlier. Sometimes, many times, rape is an insidious act, to the point where it risks being rationalized. While you may be totally immune to such rationalization, and while I may be, there are plenty who aren't.

 

[Ranzid]

Time to throw my 2 cents into the mix...


Jim seems to make the point that murder in games is quick , the enemy can fight back and once your dead you cant suffer.

there are more points but im going to focus on these.

In many games that ive played over the past 10 years you may choose how to kill someone, and if it will be quick or in some cases tortuously slow, games glorify the killing of people by either making it a sort of death porn where you kill people in new exciting ways with wave after wave of mostly harmless enemy's, or I focuses in upon the process and execution of a murder seeming to revel in its application.

Then their is the claim that in games the people/things you kill can fight back , I remember not to long ago the Modern warfare level of slaughtering an entire airport, and in most shoot-em-ups the lower level enemy's never really could threaten you, and in grand theft auto and saints row you can , and are often encouraged , to beat/shoot/kill random civilians.

Finally , and this point has been made already so ill skim, If you are murdered slow or quick then it is the end of your suffering , you cant feel anything more once your dead good or bad. Rape horrific as it is doesn't stop you from experiencing happiness in the future.

Rape is to me a pointless crime , if its a sexual thrill your after then there are far more fun ways to get it especially when the other party is willing to let you put your ***** in their ***** and tickle your ****** while your stroke their giraffe.

and if its the dominance over someone that does it for you , that to is covered by civil society in the form of BDSM and fetishes.

Games these days are as much about the story as they are about the gameplay ( the good ones anyway) and if the story is dark and a character does rape someone then im not going to turn it off in disgust and demand a refund , if the game is meant to illicit a repugnant feeling towards the character doing the rapeing then it worked.

that being said if I was playing a nice RPG and my nicely created character was put in a situation where I had to control him rape someone.. I think I would stop playing , just like if a game wanted me to abuse a child or hurt an animal ( not the 4 tusked jungle terror level 17) or do anything so far off the moral compass it would never find north.

so to summarise for all your TLDR'ers

Rape is not worse than murder, you can never do more than murder.
Rape in games as it is in movies should be carefully placed if at all.
To censor or ban rape in games would lead to a banning of anything considered morally wrong by anyone.

So that's my 2 cents , While I didn't agree with Jim hes still fun to watch rant about things like a bitter old uncle.

 

[jmarquiso]

To be honest, most game devs probably couldn't handle rape very well, and there'd be a huge media shit-storm. I mean, the sex in ME was consensual, and that riled a lot of feathers, imagine "rape simulator" accusations. Then again, how well is murder and war handled? Not very. It's glorified and human life trivialized, yet the outrage is nothing compared to a virtual rape.

It took a long time before rape was being handled in movies beyond implying the act and depicting the reaction to the act. It took a long time to handle it head on and graphically.

 

[Zydrate]

Finally, thank you. Now when people bring up the "But we murder lots!" fallacy, I can just link this video.

I especially loved the "Death is the equalizer" and "The other side is usually shooting at you" points.

 

[Terramax]

So Jim is saying that supposed self defense is what differentiates murder from rape? Well, that's a fair point in the real world, but that doesn't justify it in video games.

Video games, 99% of the time, allow us to kill for our own entertainment. It doesn't matter if you're playing the hero or villain. Either way, you paid for the enjoyment of killing something in a virtual world. We don't buy CoD and say 'if I come across an enemy, and he's firing at me, I'll fire back', but a case of 'I'm buying this product because I WANT to kill something'. Because it'll amuse me.

Rape, also, is a form of entertainment for the predator. Therefore, in videogames at least, I see them as one and the same.

Also, Jim feels that just because rape happens less often, it's less socially acceptable. This is possibly the most offensive aspect of this speech. That 'death' comes to us all eventually. However, there is a significant difference between 'death' in the natural sense, and 'murder', particularly meaningless death for pleasure.

And as for the psychological effects, no, death is not quick, for it haunts various other victims. A person dead is the trauma for a mother, father, siblings and friends. It can also be a burden for the killer.

Whilst I'm happy to agree that the two are different, trying to say that one is more justifiable than the other is ridiculous. Comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Eri]

You can't come back from being murdered.

You can, however, come back from being raped.

Life should be considered people's most prized possession.

I'm not gonna argue which makes a person worse for doing, but I will say I think anyone who would argue they'd rather be murdered than raped, is probably not in their right mind.

 

[soh45400]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

I agree completely with everything you have said but with one addition.
Those signs should be as tactful as you were in this video and not point fingers at ALL men and also tell men how to get over rejection and sexual repression because from whatever I have seen whenever rejection comes up in the media its usually women shown how to get over it.
Several countries just hang rapists(and rightly so) but don't offer any alternative or coping mechanism for anyone who might become one.

 

[Belated]

I agree with you a good bit on this one Jim, but let's get one thing straight: You absolutely misinterpreted Dave Chappelle. That joke was not about girls leading men to rape them. It was about girls leading men to flirt with them. There's a huge difference. Nothing personal, but that's Dave you're going after.

I'm glad you mentioned near the end that you still support a person's right to make their sick game, even if you don't agree with it. It's important that Free Speech stays absolutely neutral. And while games like Rapelay are sick, they do have a right to be created if someone so wishes to create them. And it was absolutely wrong for people to try to get the game banned [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapelay#Controversy] regardless of how offensive it is. Free speech must remain free for everyone, no matter what. Because of the incident surrounding Rapelay, I will certainly never donate money to "Equality Now", no matter how much good they do for other causes. As far as I'm concerned, they're an anti-free-speech movement. You can't try to ban somebody's speech and claim to be about "equality", no matter how badly you disagree with that speech, and no matter how offensive it is. As long as there are no real-life victims involved in the work, it should remain legal. But I digress.

Honestly, I'm still not sure you've sold me on rape being worse than murder. If you examine the crimes objectively, murder is still worse because it ends a person's life. Rape leaves them intact to live another day. And yes it may be traumatizing, but at least their body still functions. It's true that us spiritual people believe death is merely the beginning of something greater, but to atheists death is the absolute end to everything. Rape just FEELS worse than murder because of the way our culture treats the two. And although when you murder somebody in a video game, it's often a mutual combat situation, the same cannot be said for when you murder pedestrians in GTA who are running away from you. Murdering an innocent bystander is definitely worse than raping an innocent bystander. When you murder an innocent bystander, a life force leaves the body, a heart stops beating, several other bystanders lose a friend, and possibly a family member loses a relative. Rape doesn't take a person away from all the people who love him or her. And you can continue to live a happy life after you've been raped, even if it takes some healing.

 

[Stripes]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.

I am not getting aggressive. I am emphatic. I am not angry or upset with you at all. I am, in fact, enjoying the discussion.

Now, I get you saying it's insulting. The thing is though, if the worst thing society does to me as a privileged white male (and I agree with Lois CK when he says you really don't get a better starting hand than that) is remind me not to rape people, I think I can happily live with it. In a society where people are quick to imply a victim's fault in a rape, I dare say the reinforcement that the responsibility is the rapist's, not the victim's, is important.

Commercials like this actually do run in the UK, something I forgot to mention in the video. Often aimed at young, college-aged men, reminding them of the consequences of what they're doing, of how what may seem innocent to them looks terrible when viewed from an outsider's perspective. I think they are very useful reminders for the reasons I gave earlier. Sometimes, many times, rape is an insidious act, to the point where it risks being rationalized. While you may be totally immune to such rationalization, and while I may be, there are plenty who aren't.

Right, sorry its just when someone finds the caps lock it tends to suggest theyve hot the angry eyes on.

Anyway, I understand people need to be reminded what is and isnt rape, when they are getting their first few experiences with such situations, that doesnt mean all men need to be reminded not to rape, nor does it mean people in general need to be reminded not to rape. Most people wont realise what they are doing and might never realise they raped someone, there are probably people out there who have yet neither person realised it. There is a difference between knowingly and unknowingly doing something wrong, very few people will knowingly rape someone so dont need to be reminded not to. Besides the ones who would wont stop just because they got told not to.

 

[ADDLibrarian]

Jim, you have perfectly communicated my opinion as well on a controversial subject. Bravo on this episode. Thank God for you!

 

[Right Hook]

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Exactly, no means no, it doesn't mean try again in 30 seconds. Anything other than a very emphatic yes means no because taking advantage of someone or tricking them is just as sleazy as outright forcing them.

 

[AxelxGabriel]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Again, Dentistry can be justified. You dont NEED to go to a dentist.

Rape is not. There is no justification for Rape, period.

it's called the cycle of abuse not that it justifies rape but if child is raped over x amount years by a predator then turns around and does the same because he or she never got help for the abuse then it goes in cycle that needs to addressed. No there is never a just cause for rape however given a person's weak state of mind and enduring amount of abuse he or she might of took it's understandable why the person would repeat the cycle, to make some-one hurt or feel bad as they do.

So I'm supposed to feel sorry for a guy who rapes today because he was raped 20 years ago? That is a piss poor excuse and it gets no sympathy from me.

 

[Alterego-X]

- I've read a lot of posts about rape in videogames. But at the end it's mostly a japanese thing, isn't it? I would like to understand why for the japanese rape is not an absolute tabu on a cultural level.

I guess it's mostly caused by Japanese culture's concept of honne and tatemae attitudes. These mean the two facets of someone's personality. "Honne" means inner desires, and "tatemae" means the public exterior.

While in most cultures, honne would be seen as the "real one", Japanese people expect and value the two equally. Appearing proper in public is important, but secretly being different from that is encouraged.

For example, in terms of sexuality, women are expected to publically appear virtous, but actually enjoy sex. So while western rape fantasies are limited to people who want to "punish" girls who were "acting like whores", in other words, to agressive people who want to hurt, in most Japanese rape scenes the victim being unwilling just makes her that much more honorable, but she will actually enjoy the act, so it's ok.

Also note, that this also often happen in shoujo manga too, written by women for girls. It's not just a misogynist fantasy, but something that the whole Japanese culture accepts and expects. Even in stories that aren't really about rape, a girlfriend is always portrayed as being relucant, and during sex, cry out "no, stop" instead of "fuck me harder", even while she obviously isn't trying to fend off the guy.

 

[Num1d1um]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Did you just compare being raped to paying a visit to the dentist? You shitting me?

 

[tmande2nd]

Its a very hard topic to breach.

Its kind of odd in a way too.
TVtropes has a trope called "Rape is a Special Kind of Evil"

You can be a villain who blows up a building full of people, but more people go ape-shit over a person who rapes a single person.

I can recall an old campaign I did in D/D.
The father antagonist is a typical crime boss who murders people, and oppresses an entire city.
His son is basically an arrogant brat who wastes money on gambling and easy women.

We learned he raped one woman, and suddenly my entire party wanted his blood.
Even more then the dad.

I tried saying "uhm...that is about the worst thing he did, that dad is far worse"
Then I got accused of supporting a rapist and yelled at.

Its like a berserk button with people.
I guess in fiction if you kill thousands of people you still are less monstrous then rapists.
I mean villains in comics can be disgusting, but its the ones who are rapists that everyone hates.

Even Dr. Doom hates rapists, and he is an insane megalomaniac.

 

[Dastardly]

we dont really need to be told

The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

I'm with you on this. I would say, however, that these could be reasons why we see more ads providing women tips for avoiding rapists, and not very many telling guys not to rape.

Of these people:

a. A woman who, statistically, maybe become a victim of rape.
b. A man who doesn't believe himself to be a rapist, or at risk of becoming one
c. A man who identifies himself as a rapist, or intends to become one by committing a rape

Which of them would actually pay any attention to an ad that references rape? Person B glances by and says, "Well, I'm not a rapist, so that's not for me," the same way I might look away from an ad selling denture cream. Person C isn't what we'd think of as rational, and there's no way someone like this is unaware of the wrongness of the act... so there's no way they're going to be swayed by being informed via billboard that it is wrong.

We might posit that Person B is still at risk of becoming a rapist, say after taking advantage (knowingly or not) of a drunken friend, or other similar circumstance, and that Person B might benefit from being forewarned about this possibility so that he might guard against it. I'd have to wonder, would you really take it to heart if I said, "Jim, the next time you're at a party, maybe don't turn into a rapist, okay?" I'd wager not. Because you know you're not a rapist.

The reason ad campaigns focus on helping women recognize and avoid vulnerable situations is because that's where the ads are more likely to achieve a result. The point of the ads is to try to reduce the number of rapes that occur, and women are more likely to listen than rapists. It's the same reason we put locks on our doors -- sure, it's wrong for someone to break into my house do me harm or take my things, and it wouldn't be my fault if he did, but is it better for me to feel that inner peace of knowing I'm in the Right, or is it better for me to not get robbed at all?

I wear my seatbelt when I drive, so that if I'm hit by some drunk, I'm less likely to get killed. If I wasn't wearing the seatbelt, and I was killed, I know full well that the law would punish him for my death -- he was 100% at fault for driving drunk and hitting me, and I'd be 100% blameless in the entire affair. Problem: I'm still dead.

Locking my door or putting on my seatbelt isn't somehow accepting blame for the potential crime that could have otherwise occurred. It's me realizing that such steps are a small price to pay to reduce my chances of being selected as a victim of these crimes, and that safety is worth more to me than the comparatively hollow knowledge that, if I am robbed or killed, no one can blame me.

(More on topic: 1. Victim blaming is real and does happen. 2. Games that encourage the player to engage in rape, or allow the player to potentially be made a victim of rape as a failure condition (or, really, at all I think) are indefensible, except in the most technical arguments for "Free Speech"... and even then, I wouldn't take the case.)

 

[Num1d1um]

I think a big part of the difference is a pseudo-medieval concept of honor that still floats around fighting to the death. In most games, you engage opponents that are well capable of killing you, so killing them is not only self-defense, but the duel between the player and the enemy retains a certain kind of fairness. I don't see honor or fairness in rape. Anywhere.

 

[FedericoV]

- I've read a lot of posts about rape in videogames. But at the end it's mostly a japanese thing, isn't it? I would like to understand why for the japanese rape is not an absolute tabu on a cultural level.

I guess it's mostly caused by Japanese culture's concept of honne and tatemae attitudes. These mean the two facets of someone's personality. "Honne" means inner desires, and "tatemae" means the public exterior.

Thanks for the interesting and in-depth insight.