Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[leviadragon99]

The fact that we ever need someone to go and point these facts out is a lot depressing...

 

[Racecarlock]

What about regular sex, though? Like, just a game about regular consensual sex? I wouldn't play a rape simulator, but what about just regular old sex?

 

[Pennywise12528]

Most of the arguments in this video were pretty good, but I don't think bringing up Hannibal Lecter was a smart move in the long run. As soon as he was cited as an example of a villain who is evil incarnate yet rooted for by the fans and a weird type of sex symbol, I immediately realized that all of the same also applied to Freddy Krueger.

Y'know, the unrepentant child rapist/murderer.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Theres a lot of talk in the video about rape being used as a weapon by the player, but it doesnt really go into rape being used by a villain in a video game much like its used to in books and movies.

Lets be honest, the hot topic right now is the Tomb Raider E3 trailer, yet in that, the player wasnt the one threatening rape, it was an NPC. I think that rather then asking if Rapelay should be let off the hook or if we should be able to drag women into dark alleyways in GTAV, the real question is if rape should be in video games, even if its depicted as being something horrible and is performs only by NPC's.

 

[Stripes]

we dont really need to be told

The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

we dont really need to be told

The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

 

[loa]

It's fiction.
Why are we bringing real life into fiction, discussing how real life rape is different from murder and how people who made a rape game must all be weirdos (nice generalization bro)?
This is entirely irrelevant.

No theme should be "taboo" to the point where media gets taken off the market.
Once again: It's fiction.

If people say it's hypocritical that violence is acceptable but rape isn't, they probably mean it more in that sort of context.
Banging on semantics about why "rape isn't the same as murder because you can't justify it etc. etc." is kinda missing the entire point.

 

[Blunderman]

There was a time when we weren't desensitised to murder. That's come and gone because it's such a primary component of both fictional and reality-inspired media, given the heavy use of the good guy vs bad guy scenario in which the bad guy ends up dying. There are simple mechanical reasons behind this development. Rape by comparison is a tertiary component, though it's been around in plenty of works for the better part of our history.

Absolute morality is nonsense and I think that the reason for all this is primarily mechanical, combined with how central killing is to our biology. Taking the life of another creature, human or otherwise, is integral to nature; nature involves a lot of killing. However, there has never been nor will there ever be a circumstance in which you have to rape to survive (discounting the gun-to-your-head red herring).

Also, Dave Chappelle is misogynist prick. Even whores have the right to not be raped.

 

[Aureliano]

Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

 

[GundamSentinel]

I think that in RL there is a grey area around rape. Partly because the definition of what actually is rape is not clear-cut. Often it's not just a simple case of a man forcing himself on a woman, especially when alcohol is involved.
Also, it happens very often that men are falsely accused (about 20% of all rape accusations) of rape by women who have no idea what kind of harm they are doing with such accusations, especially because of the air of 'ultimate evil' that surrounds it. This has done very little to promote contacting the police for actual rape victims, but instead often fuels the 'woman was behaving slutty' argument. Without a doubt a bad thing, but something to think about.

Though I'm really not convinced about rape being worse than murder, I agree with all the arguments when they pertain to rape and murder in videogames. Thanks for the vid, Jim. No food as tasty as good food for thought.

 

[jmarquiso]

here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.

Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.

 

[Imthatguy]

Most of the arguments in this video were pretty good, but I don't think bringing up Hannibal Lecter was a smart move in the long run. As soon as he was cited as an example of a villain who is evil incarnate yet rooted for by the fans and a weird type of sex symbol, I immediately realized that all of the same also applied to Freddy Krueger.

Y'know, the unrepentant child rapist/murderer.

Hannibal actually rapes Clarice in Hannibal after messing with her head with psychotics and mental conditioning. YMMV as its never in the movies (The only Hannibal most people have seen).

 

[awesomeClaw]

Actually, I can justify rape. It requires a ridicolously convoluted situation, and even then it´s a gray area for sure, but I could justify it.

Intresting arguments. I don´t quite agree with you, but I don´t quite disagree with you.

 

[jmarquiso]

Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?

To be fair, he never advocates censorship. He even says quite explicitly he is not saying they shouldn't be made. What he's saying is it's inappropriate, in bad taste, etc. Basically he'd defend the right for someone to make a game about rape, but he wouldn't invite them home.

Think about this - the ACLU threw its weight behind the KKK and NAMBLA, not because they believe in their causes, but they believe in the right for them to speak.

 

[Torrasque]

I was going to bring up the point "Killing can involve suffering, but when someone is killed, they are dead, no more pain or suffering. Rape is pure unending suffering, and suffering is bad, so that is why rape is so bad", but you brought it up almost immediately when I thought of it, so thanks lol.

Now I am going to sit back and see if this turns into a flame war.

Edit: I think you handled this issue very well and covered all your bases. This being the internet, someone is going to be offended by what you said, but that is nothing new. Great video, thank god for Jim.

Actually, killing can involve suffering for the victims. Games have even shown this.

There is a quest for the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim, one of the first, that proves it.

Spoiler: quest spoilers, just to be safe

A young woman asks the dark brotherhood to kill her ex, who had used her in order to get close and rob a rather rich family she was friends with. After he runs off, the family shuns her despite her feeling used as well. As a bonus objective for her, you can go and kill the remaining daughter of the family.
Now, why do I say remaining? The other daughter was killed as well, and is part of a quest in that city.

Now! When you go and kill this only daughter and turn the quest in, you can later enter the house and find the mother dead. Next to her body is a suicide note in which it details that the players act of killing the daughter led her to such a state that she just couldn't stand living.

As for the rape issue, I agree almost wholeheartedly. I do say almost because I saw Tentacle Bento mentioned. I bring this up because there is some rather interesting concepts to this in its relation to rape.
Rape, as an act between two humans is quite obviously a horrible thing, and is why something like "Rapelay" was quickly shelved and forgotten.
Yet rape, as a tentacle and human, is probably one of the things Japan is most known for. There simply is no analogue in real life (besides the obvious), and as far as I'm aware of in general is completely accepted. I could turn Safety off on my google images and search "tentacle rape", but I'd rather not. I don't need to see how many results I get of it, because I know there will be a lot.

Which brings me to Tentacle Bento. I saw it, laughed a little at the idea and went on. Never had an interest in backing it, but I could see a little of the humor behind the basis of the game. Yet it apparently got kicked by kickstarter for one reason or another.
Again not having really looked too deeply into the game, from what I saw there was no real evidence that the game was saying the schoolgirls grabbed were raped. Where they? Maybe! I don't know. You just capture them, and they join your side.

So what is with that?

Also, the project apparently went to some other similar site and is succeeding from what I read on the main kickstarter page. Which obviously means that whatever site they are on definitely doesn't mind.

I assumed that psychological pain is inflicted on everyone close to the person that is killed. Just like that psychological pain is there for the people close to the rape victim.

As for tentacle bento/tentacle rape, I think that is less serious than non-tentacle rape because of the tongue in cheek nature of the rape. If tentacle rape was a real thing, then I think it would not be as popular as it is in anime and hentai.

 

[dantoddd]

here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.

Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.

here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.

Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.

Thanks.

 

[wizzy555]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

I'm not sure I really agree there. I don't really recall being told not to kill people, "don't hit people" sure. Movies, TV and such usually portray guys who are forceful with girls as jerks, this can be taken as a moral reminder. Date rape and violent assault are usually too edgy to include in a family show however.

That said a few posters (like the ones mentioned before) wouldn't hurt.

 

[KaosuHamoni]

-snip-

Jim, I'm genuinely beginning to respect you more and more. Not gonna lie, when your series first came to the Escapist, I did not like it. At all. But with the last season you've really won me round, especially with the way that you're 'maturely' approaching topics which most really don't like touching.

Good job dude.

 

[wizzy555]

Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?

To be fair, he never advocates censorship. He even says quite explicitly he is not saying they shouldn't be made. What he's saying is it's inappropriate, in bad taste, etc. Basically he'd defend the right for someone to make a game about rape, but he wouldn't invite them home.

Think about this - the ACLU threw its weight behind the KKK and NAMBLA, not because they believe in their causes, but they believe in the right for them to speak.

I wish we had an ACLU in England.

 

[Riobux]

Aw, not one little rape Jim? Just a quick one?

On a more serious note: I think another important point about the "rape vs murder" debate is the methods used as well. There's many ways to murder someone with the most common being in a quick manner such as a gunshot to the head, a sword through the chest, and so on. Hell, developers tend to draw the line at drawn-out murder sequences; with torture incredibly rarely, if ever, shown in full depiction (although if it's because it's boring to drag it out or if it's full out disturbing for the view is a different matter). Rape however, isn't a quick method. It's never quick (cue "can only sexually last for a few seconds" jokes). It's something drawn out for at least ten minutes, if not for hours and hours. It's more akin to a form of torture (and was sometimes used as a form of torture way back), something developers rarely touch.

Even then, after the murder is done the pain is done and the person feels nothing (unless you're spiritual and believe in the person going to hell, but that may be going far in your imagination). Rape, the pain is drawn out beyond the event (which lasted for at least ten minutes) with a culture of shame upon the person who got raped. For death, we put up a tombstone, maybe sob for a bit for the person's sake and move on. For rape, the victim feels a strong psychological disturbance constantly due to our social norms of sexuality behaviours being not just breeched but violated in such a strong way to shatter the human mind. They're not just abnormal to themselves, they're forever outcasts who have broken one of the central code of human laws. The shame a rape victim feels, almost encouraged by the media ans social norms, is border-lining the shame a person who's committed manslaughter feels (assuming they're the typical 9-5 office worker from a middle class background and so on). It's mental torture to an extreme level, and considering video games rarely if ever show physical torture, it'd be strange for a non-villain character to take part in mental and physical torture (which for something to be as drawn out as it is, you don't feel a sense of doing it out of necessity like you do with murder, but you must get a sense of enjoyment out of it to do it that long).

If it's done in the right context and used sparingly rape can be a powerful scene in a game and it'd be an amazing scene I'd love to watch (not for the actual rape, but for the narrative elements of it), but once the "rape door" is open I can only imagine an absolute onslaught of crass and unintelligent filth flowing through the market.