Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

Zeriah

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I'd be ok with rape in video games if it was used in the same way as it is in some critically acclaimed movies/books, like a Song of Ice and Fire for example. However it'd have to be done very carefully and it would only make sense in a very well written, story based game -- which as you said, doesn't really exist in video games yet.

One thing that does kind of russles my jimmies is that rape is the only thing on earth that can't be used within any sort of comedy (maybe South Park can get away with it...). When it's light hearted, silly or satirical and not in anyway used aggressively or maliciously, I just don't get how it's pretty much the only thing that's taboo. This is much different than it is in a video game where you freaking control a rapist and it's aggressive, horrible and can even glorify it.

I mean in comedy pedophilia, racial stereotypes/racism, murder, torture, assault, sexism, sexual orientation, body type are all used as subject matter and barely anybody but the Christian Republican Mothers association really bats an eye. However even something as tame and harmless as that Penny Arcade strip gets crucified (not counting the backlash to their classless response here, just the initial hate). I mean I read through that strip and didn't think much of it at all and was shocked to see a few days later, how big an issue it was.
 

Murlin

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FoolKiller said:
I loved it. Good for you Jim. Excellent piece.

I do disagree with some of what you said. I think the problem isn't that rape isn't wrong, it's just the grey areas that occur in many of the scenarios. There are circumstances where there is a question of what occurred being classified as rape or not.

The problem we have with killing is what the justification is for killing. The problem we have with rape is not justification, because there isn't any. The problem is whether what occurred can actually be classified as rape. Since we cannot justify the action, we aren't able to attach a redeeming quality to the action. We don't have this problem with killing as we see killing in combat, self defence and such as justified.

In fact, I think we have the same objections in both cases. We object to being the villain and victimizing the innocent and defenceless. People even had issues when
in Modern Warfare 2 you were undercover as a terrorist and had to gun down the civilians inside the airport.
I would argue that this is more akin to the rape situation than most of the killing that goes on in the video game industry. This is also why it caused such a fuss. People were uncomfortable with that, and the victims were impersonal. Rape would be much more intimate and personal.
I agree with the Modern Warfare 2 scenario. Murder often becomes questionable when the justification doesn't hold up, and killing a defenceless person just for the "feeling of having killed somebody" is a scary mindset.

The difference between gunning down civilians in MW2 and mowing down hordes of enemy soldiers lies in the fact that in many games your 'murder victims' are often just as able to kill you as well, perhaps not even in a face-to-face confrontation but in some other way: I killed the mad scientist because he was going to blow up the earth and that would have effectively killed me as well.

It's also one of the reasons I enjoy stealth or non-lethal approaches such as in Deus Ex HR: it's more challenging to NOT actually kill anyone, though lethality is justified (none of your enemies hesitate to enrichen your body with copious amounts of lead and tungsten)
A game that would specifically require you to kill defenceless people for no good reason I believe I would not enjoy, support, or leave unchallenged.

The same is inherently true for rape: There have rarely been situations were rape-victims were "just as able to rape the perpetrator" and as has been said before in this thread: You don't rape in self-defence (you release...THE TIGER!!!). Rape has no justification other then one's own perverted desire.
 

Racecarlock

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What about regular sex, though? Like, just a game about regular consensual sex? I wouldn't play a rape simulator, but what about just regular old sex?
 

Pennywise12528

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Most of the arguments in this video were pretty good, but I don't think bringing up Hannibal Lecter was a smart move in the long run. As soon as he was cited as an example of a villain who is evil incarnate yet rooted for by the fans and a weird type of sex symbol, I immediately realized that all of the same also applied to Freddy Krueger.

Y'know, the unrepentant child rapist/murderer.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Theres a lot of talk in the video about rape being used as a weapon by the player, but it doesnt really go into rape being used by a villain in a video game much like its used to in books and movies.

Lets be honest, the hot topic right now is the Tomb Raider E3 trailer, yet in that, the player wasnt the one threatening rape, it was an NPC. I think that rather then asking if Rapelay should be let off the hook or if we should be able to drag women into dark alleyways in GTAV, the real question is if rape should be in video games, even if its depicted as being something horrible and is performs only by NPC's.
 

Stripes

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Stripes said:
we dont really need to be told
The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.
Jimothy Sterling said:
Stripes said:
we dont really need to be told
The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.
I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.
 

loa

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It's fiction.
Why are we bringing real life into fiction, discussing how real life rape is different from murder and how people who made a rape game must all be weirdos (nice generalization bro)?
This is entirely irrelevant.

No theme should be "taboo" to the point where media gets taken off the market.
Once again: It's fiction.

If people say it's hypocritical that violence is acceptable but rape isn't, they probably mean it more in that sort of context.
Banging on semantics about why "rape isn't the same as murder because you can't justify it etc. etc." is kinda missing the entire point.
 

Blunderman

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There was a time when we weren't desensitised to murder. That's come and gone because it's such a primary component of both fictional and reality-inspired media, given the heavy use of the good guy vs bad guy scenario in which the bad guy ends up dying. There are simple mechanical reasons behind this development. Rape by comparison is a tertiary component, though it's been around in plenty of works for the better part of our history.

Absolute morality is nonsense and I think that the reason for all this is primarily mechanical, combined with how central killing is to our biology. Taking the life of another creature, human or otherwise, is integral to nature; nature involves a lot of killing. However, there has never been nor will there ever be a circumstance in which you have to rape to survive (discounting the gun-to-your-head red herring).

Also, Dave Chappelle is misogynist prick. Even whores have the right to not be raped.
 

Aureliano

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Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Stripes said:
I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.
Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."
 

GundamSentinel

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I think that in RL there is a grey area around rape. Partly because the definition of what actually is rape is not clear-cut. Often it's not just a simple case of a man forcing himself on a woman, especially when alcohol is involved.
Also, it happens very often that men are falsely accused (about 20% of all rape accusations) of rape by women who have no idea what kind of harm they are doing with such accusations, especially because of the air of 'ultimate evil' that surrounds it. This has done very little to promote contacting the police for actual rape victims, but instead often fuels the 'woman was behaving slutty' argument. Without a doubt a bad thing, but something to think about.

Though I'm really not convinced about rape being worse than murder, I agree with all the arguments when they pertain to rape and murder in videogames. Thanks for the vid, Jim. No food as tasty as good food for thought.
 

jmarquiso

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dantoddd said:
here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.
Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.
 

Imthatguy

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Pennywise12528 said:
Most of the arguments in this video were pretty good, but I don't think bringing up Hannibal Lecter was a smart move in the long run. As soon as he was cited as an example of a villain who is evil incarnate yet rooted for by the fans and a weird type of sex symbol, I immediately realized that all of the same also applied to Freddy Krueger.

Y'know, the unrepentant child rapist/murderer.
Hannibal actually rapes Clarice in Hannibal after messing with her head with psychotics and mental conditioning. YMMV as its never in the movies (The only Hannibal most people have seen).
 

awesomeClaw

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Actually, I can justify rape. It requires a ridicolously convoluted situation, and even then it´s a gray area for sure, but I could justify it.

Intresting arguments. I don´t quite agree with you, but I don´t quite disagree with you.
 

jmarquiso

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Aureliano said:
Slippery slopes and censorship. If there's a topic that cannot be written about for fear of the very real possibility of an author being accused of committing or desiring to commit the action under discussion, does that set a dangerous precedent for free speech?

The common sense argument says no, but since when have you seen common people act sensibly when it comes to censorship?
To be fair, he never advocates censorship. He even says quite explicitly he is not saying they shouldn't be made. What he's saying is it's inappropriate, in bad taste, etc. Basically he'd defend the right for someone to make a game about rape, but he wouldn't invite them home.

Think about this - the ACLU threw its weight behind the KKK and NAMBLA, not because they believe in their causes, but they believe in the right for them to speak.
 

Torrasque

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cursedseishi said:
Torrasque said:
I was going to bring up the point "Killing can involve suffering, but when someone is killed, they are dead, no more pain or suffering. Rape is pure unending suffering, and suffering is bad, so that is why rape is so bad", but you brought it up almost immediately when I thought of it, so thanks lol.

Now I am going to sit back and see if this turns into a flame war.

Edit: I think you handled this issue very well and covered all your bases. This being the internet, someone is going to be offended by what you said, but that is nothing new. Great video, thank god for Jim.
Actually, killing can involve suffering for the victims. Games have even shown this.

There is a quest for the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim, one of the first, that proves it.
A young woman asks the dark brotherhood to kill her ex, who had used her in order to get close and rob a rather rich family she was friends with. After he runs off, the family shuns her despite her feeling used as well. As a bonus objective for her, you can go and kill the remaining daughter of the family.
Now, why do I say remaining? The other daughter was killed as well, and is part of a quest in that city.

Now! When you go and kill this only daughter and turn the quest in, you can later enter the house and find the mother dead. Next to her body is a suicide note in which it details that the players act of killing the daughter led her to such a state that she just couldn't stand living.


As for the rape issue, I agree almost wholeheartedly. I do say almost because I saw Tentacle Bento mentioned. I bring this up because there is some rather interesting concepts to this in its relation to rape.
Rape, as an act between two humans is quite obviously a horrible thing, and is why something like "Rapelay" was quickly shelved and forgotten.
Yet rape, as a tentacle and human, is probably one of the things Japan is most known for. There simply is no analogue in real life (besides the obvious), and as far as I'm aware of in general is completely accepted. I could turn Safety off on my google images and search "tentacle rape", but I'd rather not. I don't need to see how many results I get of it, because I know there will be a lot.

Which brings me to Tentacle Bento. I saw it, laughed a little at the idea and went on. Never had an interest in backing it, but I could see a little of the humor behind the basis of the game. Yet it apparently got kicked by kickstarter for one reason or another.
Again not having really looked too deeply into the game, from what I saw there was no real evidence that the game was saying the schoolgirls grabbed were raped. Where they? Maybe! I don't know. You just capture them, and they join your side.

So what is with that?

Also, the project apparently went to some other similar site and is succeeding from what I read on the main kickstarter page. Which obviously means that whatever site they are on definitely doesn't mind.
I assumed that psychological pain is inflicted on everyone close to the person that is killed. Just like that psychological pain is there for the people close to the rape victim.

As for tentacle bento/tentacle rape, I think that is less serious than non-tentacle rape because of the tongue in cheek nature of the rape. If tentacle rape was a real thing, then I think it would not be as popular as it is in anime and hentai.
 

dantoddd

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jmarquiso said:
dantoddd said:
here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.
Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.
jmarquiso said:
dantoddd said:
here is a little question for you guys. would you rather be dead or be raped. answer this honestly.

Frankly i'd pick getting raped over being dead. My suspicion is that at the end of the day vast majority of humanity would as well.

Jim is also hypocritical when he says he's fine with torture but rape is ebil. Many of his argument about why rape is such a heinous offense can be exported wholesale to argue that torture is worse than murder.
Dead by far. Rape carries with it all sorts of issues and lifelong afflictions. Death is final.

The same with torture, after all, rape is even used as a form of torture.
Thanks.