While I rarely watch your videos, Im glad I decided to watch this one. I agree with everything said.
Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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While I rarely watch your videos, Im glad I decided to watch this one. I agree with everything said.
But you're arguing this from the permanence of the result. And yeah, murder is forever, which makes it definitely more permanent... but that's not always what people mean by "worse." (And let's also remember that rape can't be "undone," so it's not exactly transitory.)Belated said:
It's not really about the victim or the act, but about the perpetrator. Any of us, if pressed hard enough, can think of a situation in which someone could make us so angry we would want to kill them. We can put ourselves in "the killer's shoes" in some way. Not every killer, not every circumstance, but some.
What's more, we see situations in the world in which killing is justified (thus meaning it's, you know, not "murder," per se). The act is occasionally excusable, and most games put is in that sort of situation. But even when we're not in that situation (like running around in GTA gunning down civvies for no reason), the ground has already been broken on the act itself, so we can turn a blind eye since it's just fantasy.
(I'm not saying we feel sorry for a serial killer, or anything like that, but the fact that we can in some distant way understand killing... well, that takes some of the sting out of what the guy did. He's a guy that misused killing, but we retain the knowledge that sometimes it's necessary, or at least understandable. We know that killing occasionally has a "correct" us, and that it can even happen accidentally, so some of the taboo surrounding the at itself is mitigated -- we look at the circumstances and the perpetrator to determine right/wrong.)
Bur rape? There is no situation in which it is justified. I don't think anyone out there can think of a situation in which someone could make them so angry they would want to rape them. We are not able to put ourselves in the killer's shoes, so there is absolutely not even the slightest seed of sympathy or understanding. There is no "correct" way to use rape, so that marks anyone who would use it with a particular brand of intentional evil.
There are no mitigating circumstances. The act is completely evil, so the person who chose to do it is also completely evil.
And that's why they're viewed so differently, in the broad sense. Now, the family of a murder victim will feel differently, because they are personally tied to the crime and its consequences, so let's be very sure: We're talking about the general public feeling on the perpetrators.
(This idea also explains why we all -- even murderers and rapists -- hold a special hatred for child molestors, by the way.)
(To include for relevant above argument re: How we can relate to murder/killing vs. how we cannot relate to rapists)Jimothy Sterling said:
Here's the thing about rape.
It's not about the sex involved. It's about the loss of power the individual feels, the complete helplessness that overcomes them as they realize they're completely powerless and have to either bend to the will of this menacing individual, and only hope to get away in one piece (read: not also murdered). It's about taking the walls an individual has built up in today's society, everything they know about how to function in a civil world, and tearing them down. Suddenly, the world's a much more brutish place, people can't be trusted, especially if they happen to have a penis, and, thanks to our culture's complete and utterly sickening fear of all things sexual, the victims feel as if they cannot convey their feelings, their experiences regarding the event, to anyone.
That's rape.
I could argue that torture's worse, in essence, it's about the same thing, but with less sex and more injury. I could, but I won't, because of one logical fallacy that everyone always forgets.
Sex is still a taboo subject.
Being cut open, and as sickening as this is, is something to brag about for some groups of people.
And as long as sex is a taboo subject, Rape will always be more difficult to go through (not to mention more of a taboo subject taboo subject taboo subject) than torture. The reason being, that rape will be much harder to recover from mentally so long as victims feel that they have nowhere to turn for help with the trauma they experienced.
That's all I have to say on the subject. We don't need more rape games. We need a game with a rape victim as the lead, and the story, nomatter what it is, told through their perspective. Games are a powerful tool of conveyance. Developers should utilize this.
It's not about the sex involved. It's about the loss of power the individual feels, the complete helplessness that overcomes them as they realize they're completely powerless and have to either bend to the will of this menacing individual, and only hope to get away in one piece (read: not also murdered). It's about taking the walls an individual has built up in today's society, everything they know about how to function in a civil world, and tearing them down. Suddenly, the world's a much more brutish place, people can't be trusted, especially if they happen to have a penis, and, thanks to our culture's complete and utterly sickening fear of all things sexual, the victims feel as if they cannot convey their feelings, their experiences regarding the event, to anyone.
That's rape.
I could argue that torture's worse, in essence, it's about the same thing, but with less sex and more injury. I could, but I won't, because of one logical fallacy that everyone always forgets.
Sex is still a taboo subject.
Being cut open, and as sickening as this is, is something to brag about for some groups of people.
And as long as sex is a taboo subject, Rape will always be more difficult to go through (not to mention more of a taboo subject taboo subject taboo subject) than torture. The reason being, that rape will be much harder to recover from mentally so long as victims feel that they have nowhere to turn for help with the trauma they experienced.
That's all I have to say on the subject. We don't need more rape games. We need a game with a rape victim as the lead, and the story, nomatter what it is, told through their perspective. Games are a powerful tool of conveyance. Developers should utilize this.
But sex, in spite of what some religions will tell you, is a completely natural and completely necessary biological function which there shouldn't be shame attached to. It doesn't serve the survival of the species if I smash the face in of the guy who just cut me off. Furthermore, you don't want to rape them, you'd like to have consensual sex with them.esperandote said:
Rape is extremely common in places like Saudi Arabia even though there are laws forcing what they see as modest dress. The issue is not how women dress, it's the dehumanization of women. Places where women are given full rights and there's less social stigma on their sexual activity tend to have less incidences of rape.
To invoke an old adage: love the sinner, hate the sin. The fact that somebody has made fiction about a difficult topic does not make them a bad person. Presumably meeting them and seeing how much you like them is how you can tell whether or not you'd want to hang out with them.jmarquiso said:
AWESOME VIDEO! Just one correction, the biblical quote is "Thou shalt not murder" not thou shalt not kill... And even in that, murder is placed on the same level as adultery, as defined contextually would be sex of any kind outside of marriage, which is much less offensive as rape. The result of murder and adultery were both the death penalty by stoning at the time.
Killing injustly is murder, killing with justice, ie death penalty, war, self defense, etc, is a completely different statement. Just wanted to clarify that. And for those idiots that will argue they are the same, LOOK IT UP IN A DICTIONARY!
Killing injustly is murder, killing with justice, ie death penalty, war, self defense, etc, is a completely different statement. Just wanted to clarify that. And for those idiots that will argue they are the same, LOOK IT UP IN A DICTIONARY!
This is all true, but to be frank I consider rapelay a game the same way I consider everything on redtube movies, yea they fit in the medium technically but they're porn first, the medium second. I doubt of the people who enjoy rapelay, that many of them are doing it because they consider it a good game, they enjoy it because it's about their fetish, and you don't choose your fetish, which would definitely be better than looking for real world rape porn (as in with porn actors) if only because the possibility is existent (even if infinitesimal) that it's real rape, and easily better than them looking for real ,not acted out rape porn. There's lots of videos I could find that are rape porn but no one is insulting the movie industry for it
I would definitely find it distasteful if the next GTA had a section where you rape someone though. That actually makes rape blend in with what's supposed to be the fun in a way, and obviously you don't know what you're getting into. If you played rapelay and had no idea what you were getting into than I envy your purity.
I would definitely find it distasteful if the next GTA had a section where you rape someone though. That actually makes rape blend in with what's supposed to be the fun in a way, and obviously you don't know what you're getting into. If you played rapelay and had no idea what you were getting into than I envy your purity.
If I want to make a new villain that is worse that is worse than all other villains combined, what what could be worse than rape?
See Jim you can be thoughtful when you try lol.
But seriously rape is even worse then being an animal. From everything I know about Zoology in every species it is the female that makes the ultimate choice of who to mate with and when. I am sure there are a few exceptions like for invertebrates where mating doesn't involve sex.
But seriously rape is even worse then being an animal. From everything I know about Zoology in every species it is the female that makes the ultimate choice of who to mate with and when. I am sure there are a few exceptions like for invertebrates where mating doesn't involve sex.
Sex has not been taboo for a long time, at least not in my family or many many families around me. Also, people have all kinds of places to turn to and are almost forced to utilize them, and I know 4 women in my family alone that will always struggle with the fact that they were raped by some old pervert.Twinmill5000 said:
It is a scar that will never go away on anyone it is done to and it changes their perspective forever. When you are in the bedroom you can't do certain positions because of the insuing flashbacks, you can't use certain phrases as they will cause blackouts. Murder of any kind will never give a person that as they are dead. The person committing the murder will forever have to deal with it whereas the rapist just wants more.
And you know what, while I am ranting on the subject, it does not have to do with the fact that men and women are different because rape usually occurs on underage children, both boys and girls alike. And usually rapists have to rape at least 30 children before they get caught............ So, they are definitely on different levels and will/should always stay that way.
Hhhmmm I'm a little confused here.
Isn't murder the act of killing a human with malice afterthought?
The way I see it Jim does not really showcase nor argue in favour of murder... he argues in favour of homicide or killing in general.
I agree though. A game where there player rapes is a horribly bad idea however I certainly also think that a game may include rape in order to develop a character or story.
Isn't murder the act of killing a human with malice afterthought?
The way I see it Jim does not really showcase nor argue in favour of murder... he argues in favour of homicide or killing in general.
I agree though. A game where there player rapes is a horribly bad idea however I certainly also think that a game may include rape in order to develop a character or story.
This joke is still funny even though Jim Sterling tried to shoehorn it into a rape video... Ye I said it, you shoehorned the shit out of that joke.RPGxMadness said:http://youtu.be/ymNdfdQvdVc
This is the quote from Dave Chappelle that Jim used, note that everyone is laughing and applauding...
While I think this video has some great points, there is one part where the argument falls apart. If this is about irrevocable damage done to people, victimization and the like, then there are forms of murder that should be looked down upon as well.
For example: If you play a game like Grand Theft Auto, and you run over a group of civilians for fun, or shoot a random bystander in the head for giggles, aren't you doing just the same? You're irrevocably ending an innocent person's life who has no hope of fighting back. You're putting a gun to the head of someone who has no hope of stopping you, killing then, driving off with their car just because you can. Don't get me wrong, I despise rape. But we're talking about something worse, in my opinion; taking away someone's right to LIVE entirely just because you CAN.
Personally, I believe both are just as bad. I see no problem with the "getting the bad guy" aspect of video games, be it with guns, martial arts, etc. On the same token, however, I believe that the "victim" aspect of rape is just as prevalent in games like Grand Theft Auto where you are mowing over civilians in a car just because you could.
For example: If you play a game like Grand Theft Auto, and you run over a group of civilians for fun, or shoot a random bystander in the head for giggles, aren't you doing just the same? You're irrevocably ending an innocent person's life who has no hope of fighting back. You're putting a gun to the head of someone who has no hope of stopping you, killing then, driving off with their car just because you can. Don't get me wrong, I despise rape. But we're talking about something worse, in my opinion; taking away someone's right to LIVE entirely just because you CAN.
Personally, I believe both are just as bad. I see no problem with the "getting the bad guy" aspect of video games, be it with guns, martial arts, etc. On the same token, however, I believe that the "victim" aspect of rape is just as prevalent in games like Grand Theft Auto where you are mowing over civilians in a car just because you could.
Errr, well the problem with "rape" being such a hot button issue is simply that it's definition has been broadened so much by society nowadays. When most people hear the term "rape" the imagine that comes to mind is someone just running up and overpowering a victim and forcing themselves on them. That's really, really bad. It's become a gray area today because that isn't what rape means in terminology anymore, today you could be accused of raping someone just by getting them drunk or whatever. It's also an ambigious crime in many cases because of a general lack of evidence in most cases. In a situation where you have a victim covered with injuries and damage to their genitals from being forced upon and all that it's pretty black and white, in many other cases however that's hardly the issue. Rape oftentimes becoming a way for women (in paticular) to change their mind about sex after the fact, or simply to abuse men. After all today it's not unheard of for some girl to pick up a guy, sleep with him, and then claim rape after the fact to get them in trouble, or to launch a civil suit. This is one of the big reasons why the so called "victim" is examined under a microscope.
Rape became a gray area due to the human factor, and the seriousness of the accusation and relative lack of a need for evidence leading to abuse. One variation on the so called "honey trap" nowadays is for some girl to pick up a guy she knows has money for some kinky sex, perform a submissive role for a camera, and then turn around weeks or months later and engage in blackmail, or accuse the guy of an actual crime with an attached civil suit.
None of that has to do with the issue of rape in video games, but mostly in response to the "issue" of how people are increasingly trying to turn it into a gray area. It's not because people are saying there is nothing wrong with rape, it's because all of the proactive prosecution of accused rapists have open the system up to abuse, and we're gradually seeing a shift towards protecting people from the accusation. Due to the trauma involved in real cases Rape is one of the few crimes you can get someone convicted of, or win a civil suit based on, with little more than circumstantial evidence. A girl could for example claim Jim Sterling raped her weeks/months/years ago at a convention or something, and provide evidence they bumped into each other briefly, and pretty much drag him through the mud (and perhaps even win). Given the passage of time due to "trauma" the accused is pretty much put into a position of having to prove a negative for all intents and purposes, when generally speaking it's supposed to be up to the accuser (the rape victim and prosecution) to prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape has been derailing the justice system in one way or another for long enough where it's shouldn't be surprising that we're seeing some backlash.
Now, as far as rape in video games goes... well here is where I'm going to say something really contreversial, above and beyond the above, and hopefully some people will read it, and even if they disagree will think about it:
There is nothing wrong with rape FANTASY. Both genders have fantasies about being forcibly taken/seduced by attractive members of the opposite gender (or their own if that is what they are into). Indeed being taken by some Fabio-like pirate or whatever is a stereo type in women's romance novels, where the term "Ravished" tends to be used in place of rape. In such fantasy the big thing is the victim starts out resisting, but eventually likes what happens, and things progress from there. Pretty much your typical submissive stuff that goes through the minds of most people while half asleep and giving themselves a good wank to send themselves off.
The reason why such stuff is adult material, is because the consumer of the media has to be able to clearly divide fantasy from reality, something kids aren't nessicarly going to be able to do. What works in fantasy, doesn't work in reality. You need to be able to understand that if you go out and rape some lady she's not going to get into it over time and fall madly in love with you, because it's "what she really wants when she tells you how repulsive you are". Things like that do not end well in real life.
When it comes to me, the basic determining factor on if something is going too far, is the simple question of whether the victim winds up enjoying it within the fantasy. If the rapist and victim could both pass as ceterfolds (male or female) and it's part of a story that generally has a happy ending, then I really don't have much of an issue. If you have someone being used for amusement in the private chambers of a drow dominatrix, or held prisoner in the private quarters of Dread Pirate Fabio, chances are it's not an issue.
On the other hand if it's done in a fashion based entirely off of sadism (and not the enjoyable kind) and the victims are simply discarded, having obtained no form of enjoyment from the experience, then yeah... that's a little creepy, as it generally comes across as misogynist/miandrist.
As odd as this will sound, I will say that I've occasionally run into some thought provoking stuff that falls between the two extremes. Jim's point about how death ends, and a rape victims have to live on with the knowlege of the crime is a pretty accurate one. Over the years I've read some things about how the only fair way to really punish a rapist would be for them to themselves be raped as you can't even acheive parity with the crime no matter enter the punitive without that given that it's such a grotesque occurance. There is also the point that in some cases with certain kinds of crimes it might be also be seen as kind of valid as a punishment. I was reading a wierd story years ago dealing with what Snow White and Prince Charming did to the evil queen (Mallificent) after she was brought down. It was a bit sick to put it mildly, but it did raise a valid point that justice is blind for a reason, and simply killing her wouldn't have come anywhere near balancing the scales for the things she had done over a period of years. Of course while thought provoking on some levels, and working as a story in of itself, I saw it as more of an object lesson as to why we don't allow torture (and that's pretty much what this was, rape and torture occupying the same basic cosm of forced suffering).
That said, I have no problem with this kind of stuff in fantasy, and within games, either in terms of exploring the ideas, or just playing them out for entertainment. That's what the "M"/"X"/"R"/"AO" label is for depending on intensity. You really need an adult point of view before you should go there.
Also do not get the impression I'm some wierdo who wanders around reading tons of bizzare adult stuff non-stop (even if I admit I do read some). I'm speaking entirely within the subject.
I agree with Jim on some points, but not on others, and really I don't think he thought it out very well.
Rape became a gray area due to the human factor, and the seriousness of the accusation and relative lack of a need for evidence leading to abuse. One variation on the so called "honey trap" nowadays is for some girl to pick up a guy she knows has money for some kinky sex, perform a submissive role for a camera, and then turn around weeks or months later and engage in blackmail, or accuse the guy of an actual crime with an attached civil suit.
None of that has to do with the issue of rape in video games, but mostly in response to the "issue" of how people are increasingly trying to turn it into a gray area. It's not because people are saying there is nothing wrong with rape, it's because all of the proactive prosecution of accused rapists have open the system up to abuse, and we're gradually seeing a shift towards protecting people from the accusation. Due to the trauma involved in real cases Rape is one of the few crimes you can get someone convicted of, or win a civil suit based on, with little more than circumstantial evidence. A girl could for example claim Jim Sterling raped her weeks/months/years ago at a convention or something, and provide evidence they bumped into each other briefly, and pretty much drag him through the mud (and perhaps even win). Given the passage of time due to "trauma" the accused is pretty much put into a position of having to prove a negative for all intents and purposes, when generally speaking it's supposed to be up to the accuser (the rape victim and prosecution) to prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape has been derailing the justice system in one way or another for long enough where it's shouldn't be surprising that we're seeing some backlash.
Now, as far as rape in video games goes... well here is where I'm going to say something really contreversial, above and beyond the above, and hopefully some people will read it, and even if they disagree will think about it:
There is nothing wrong with rape FANTASY. Both genders have fantasies about being forcibly taken/seduced by attractive members of the opposite gender (or their own if that is what they are into). Indeed being taken by some Fabio-like pirate or whatever is a stereo type in women's romance novels, where the term "Ravished" tends to be used in place of rape. In such fantasy the big thing is the victim starts out resisting, but eventually likes what happens, and things progress from there. Pretty much your typical submissive stuff that goes through the minds of most people while half asleep and giving themselves a good wank to send themselves off.
The reason why such stuff is adult material, is because the consumer of the media has to be able to clearly divide fantasy from reality, something kids aren't nessicarly going to be able to do. What works in fantasy, doesn't work in reality. You need to be able to understand that if you go out and rape some lady she's not going to get into it over time and fall madly in love with you, because it's "what she really wants when she tells you how repulsive you are". Things like that do not end well in real life.
When it comes to me, the basic determining factor on if something is going too far, is the simple question of whether the victim winds up enjoying it within the fantasy. If the rapist and victim could both pass as ceterfolds (male or female) and it's part of a story that generally has a happy ending, then I really don't have much of an issue. If you have someone being used for amusement in the private chambers of a drow dominatrix, or held prisoner in the private quarters of Dread Pirate Fabio, chances are it's not an issue.
On the other hand if it's done in a fashion based entirely off of sadism (and not the enjoyable kind) and the victims are simply discarded, having obtained no form of enjoyment from the experience, then yeah... that's a little creepy, as it generally comes across as misogynist/miandrist.
As odd as this will sound, I will say that I've occasionally run into some thought provoking stuff that falls between the two extremes. Jim's point about how death ends, and a rape victims have to live on with the knowlege of the crime is a pretty accurate one. Over the years I've read some things about how the only fair way to really punish a rapist would be for them to themselves be raped as you can't even acheive parity with the crime no matter enter the punitive without that given that it's such a grotesque occurance. There is also the point that in some cases with certain kinds of crimes it might be also be seen as kind of valid as a punishment. I was reading a wierd story years ago dealing with what Snow White and Prince Charming did to the evil queen (Mallificent) after she was brought down. It was a bit sick to put it mildly, but it did raise a valid point that justice is blind for a reason, and simply killing her wouldn't have come anywhere near balancing the scales for the things she had done over a period of years. Of course while thought provoking on some levels, and working as a story in of itself, I saw it as more of an object lesson as to why we don't allow torture (and that's pretty much what this was, rape and torture occupying the same basic cosm of forced suffering).
That said, I have no problem with this kind of stuff in fantasy, and within games, either in terms of exploring the ideas, or just playing them out for entertainment. That's what the "M"/"X"/"R"/"AO" label is for depending on intensity. You really need an adult point of view before you should go there.
Also do not get the impression I'm some wierdo who wanders around reading tons of bizzare adult stuff non-stop (even if I admit I do read some). I'm speaking entirely within the subject.
I agree with Jim on some points, but not on others, and really I don't think he thought it out very well.
As a *male* Law Enforcement officer, and one in the military at that, I wholeheartedly agree with all points Jim. Rape is something in the world we live in that has two different identities. It is hate and frowned on (when caught and put in the pen with the general population, a rapist is in for a lovely time) yet prior to a conviction an almost, air of compassion is extended to the accused, almost as if they are a victim unto themselves.
Having dealt with a a few rape cases over the years my own theory on why this dichotomy exists (and is heightened in the military 10 fold) is that there is a certain shame in allowing oneself (that is to say, the victim) BE a victim. I think it relates to the seemingly natural prudishness of humans in most cultures that views sex as something that requires REAL effort to attain and that if a rape victim "allowed" that to happen, then they are somehow at fault for not protecting themselves as well as they should have. That's my theory at least. It certainty seems evident when interviewing accused rapists in the Army.
Also to anyone interested; yes men can be raped, yes women CAN be rapists (not all rapes are, lets say, mechanical, for example if a women held you (assuming male reader) down and forced a broomstick up your *** you'd probable consider yourself raped).
Having dealt with a a few rape cases over the years my own theory on why this dichotomy exists (and is heightened in the military 10 fold) is that there is a certain shame in allowing oneself (that is to say, the victim) BE a victim. I think it relates to the seemingly natural prudishness of humans in most cultures that views sex as something that requires REAL effort to attain and that if a rape victim "allowed" that to happen, then they are somehow at fault for not protecting themselves as well as they should have. That's my theory at least. It certainty seems evident when interviewing accused rapists in the Army.
Also to anyone interested; yes men can be raped, yes women CAN be rapists (not all rapes are, lets say, mechanical, for example if a women held you (assuming male reader) down and forced a broomstick up your *** you'd probable consider yourself raped).
I think its just my philosophical view here that disturbs my view, but personally I think killing is far worse than rape. It is a definitive end. Unless you are religious and actually believe in afterlife, I understand not holding death as bad as I do, but any atheist who thinks its better to die than be raped really has not pondered exactly how final death is.
Any wound can heal, death cant. If you'd rather take bullet than be tortured that is your call, but unless all hope for better future is lost, I would fight tooth and claw for my last breath.
For the record when I play them games, I usually kill, murder and torture without remorse in abundance, regardless of my view on value of life. (or because of it? Who knows.)
Given the choice between rape game with force-feedback codpiece and a realistic kill simulator where every single enemy organ and artery can be my target, I'd say hold the clean boxers and bring me my best murder music. Unless the Killsim is an FPS with the option of peering to your opponents eyes as the life ebbs away. In that case, I'll probably need to change afterwards.
Any wound can heal, death cant. If you'd rather take bullet than be tortured that is your call, but unless all hope for better future is lost, I would fight tooth and claw for my last breath.
For the record when I play them games, I usually kill, murder and torture without remorse in abundance, regardless of my view on value of life. (or because of it? Who knows.)
Given the choice between rape game with force-feedback codpiece and a realistic kill simulator where every single enemy organ and artery can be my target, I'd say hold the clean boxers and bring me my best murder music. Unless the Killsim is an FPS with the option of peering to your opponents eyes as the life ebbs away. In that case, I'll probably need to change afterwards.