Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
This joke is still funny even though Jim Sterling tried to shoehorn it into a rape video... Ye I said it, you shoehorned the shit out of that joke.RPGxMadness said:http://youtu.be/ymNdfdQvdVc
This is the quote from Dave Chappelle that Jim used, note that everyone is laughing and applauding...
While I think this video has some great points, there is one part where the argument falls apart. If this is about irrevocable damage done to people, victimization and the like, then there are forms of murder that should be looked down upon as well.
For example: If you play a game like Grand Theft Auto, and you run over a group of civilians for fun, or shoot a random bystander in the head for giggles, aren't you doing just the same? You're irrevocably ending an innocent person's life who has no hope of fighting back. You're putting a gun to the head of someone who has no hope of stopping you, killing then, driving off with their car just because you can. Don't get me wrong, I despise rape. But we're talking about something worse, in my opinion; taking away someone's right to LIVE entirely just because you CAN.
Personally, I believe both are just as bad. I see no problem with the "getting the bad guy" aspect of video games, be it with guns, martial arts, etc. On the same token, however, I believe that the "victim" aspect of rape is just as prevalent in games like Grand Theft Auto where you are mowing over civilians in a car just because you could.
For example: If you play a game like Grand Theft Auto, and you run over a group of civilians for fun, or shoot a random bystander in the head for giggles, aren't you doing just the same? You're irrevocably ending an innocent person's life who has no hope of fighting back. You're putting a gun to the head of someone who has no hope of stopping you, killing then, driving off with their car just because you can. Don't get me wrong, I despise rape. But we're talking about something worse, in my opinion; taking away someone's right to LIVE entirely just because you CAN.
Personally, I believe both are just as bad. I see no problem with the "getting the bad guy" aspect of video games, be it with guns, martial arts, etc. On the same token, however, I believe that the "victim" aspect of rape is just as prevalent in games like Grand Theft Auto where you are mowing over civilians in a car just because you could.
Errr, well the problem with "rape" being such a hot button issue is simply that it's definition has been broadened so much by society nowadays. When most people hear the term "rape" the imagine that comes to mind is someone just running up and overpowering a victim and forcing themselves on them. That's really, really bad. It's become a gray area today because that isn't what rape means in terminology anymore, today you could be accused of raping someone just by getting them drunk or whatever. It's also an ambigious crime in many cases because of a general lack of evidence in most cases. In a situation where you have a victim covered with injuries and damage to their genitals from being forced upon and all that it's pretty black and white, in many other cases however that's hardly the issue. Rape oftentimes becoming a way for women (in paticular) to change their mind about sex after the fact, or simply to abuse men. After all today it's not unheard of for some girl to pick up a guy, sleep with him, and then claim rape after the fact to get them in trouble, or to launch a civil suit. This is one of the big reasons why the so called "victim" is examined under a microscope.
Rape became a gray area due to the human factor, and the seriousness of the accusation and relative lack of a need for evidence leading to abuse. One variation on the so called "honey trap" nowadays is for some girl to pick up a guy she knows has money for some kinky sex, perform a submissive role for a camera, and then turn around weeks or months later and engage in blackmail, or accuse the guy of an actual crime with an attached civil suit.
None of that has to do with the issue of rape in video games, but mostly in response to the "issue" of how people are increasingly trying to turn it into a gray area. It's not because people are saying there is nothing wrong with rape, it's because all of the proactive prosecution of accused rapists have open the system up to abuse, and we're gradually seeing a shift towards protecting people from the accusation. Due to the trauma involved in real cases Rape is one of the few crimes you can get someone convicted of, or win a civil suit based on, with little more than circumstantial evidence. A girl could for example claim Jim Sterling raped her weeks/months/years ago at a convention or something, and provide evidence they bumped into each other briefly, and pretty much drag him through the mud (and perhaps even win). Given the passage of time due to "trauma" the accused is pretty much put into a position of having to prove a negative for all intents and purposes, when generally speaking it's supposed to be up to the accuser (the rape victim and prosecution) to prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape has been derailing the justice system in one way or another for long enough where it's shouldn't be surprising that we're seeing some backlash.
Now, as far as rape in video games goes... well here is where I'm going to say something really contreversial, above and beyond the above, and hopefully some people will read it, and even if they disagree will think about it:
There is nothing wrong with rape FANTASY. Both genders have fantasies about being forcibly taken/seduced by attractive members of the opposite gender (or their own if that is what they are into). Indeed being taken by some Fabio-like pirate or whatever is a stereo type in women's romance novels, where the term "Ravished" tends to be used in place of rape. In such fantasy the big thing is the victim starts out resisting, but eventually likes what happens, and things progress from there. Pretty much your typical submissive stuff that goes through the minds of most people while half asleep and giving themselves a good wank to send themselves off.
The reason why such stuff is adult material, is because the consumer of the media has to be able to clearly divide fantasy from reality, something kids aren't nessicarly going to be able to do. What works in fantasy, doesn't work in reality. You need to be able to understand that if you go out and rape some lady she's not going to get into it over time and fall madly in love with you, because it's "what she really wants when she tells you how repulsive you are". Things like that do not end well in real life.
When it comes to me, the basic determining factor on if something is going too far, is the simple question of whether the victim winds up enjoying it within the fantasy. If the rapist and victim could both pass as ceterfolds (male or female) and it's part of a story that generally has a happy ending, then I really don't have much of an issue. If you have someone being used for amusement in the private chambers of a drow dominatrix, or held prisoner in the private quarters of Dread Pirate Fabio, chances are it's not an issue.
On the other hand if it's done in a fashion based entirely off of sadism (and not the enjoyable kind) and the victims are simply discarded, having obtained no form of enjoyment from the experience, then yeah... that's a little creepy, as it generally comes across as misogynist/miandrist.
As odd as this will sound, I will say that I've occasionally run into some thought provoking stuff that falls between the two extremes. Jim's point about how death ends, and a rape victims have to live on with the knowlege of the crime is a pretty accurate one. Over the years I've read some things about how the only fair way to really punish a rapist would be for them to themselves be raped as you can't even acheive parity with the crime no matter enter the punitive without that given that it's such a grotesque occurance. There is also the point that in some cases with certain kinds of crimes it might be also be seen as kind of valid as a punishment. I was reading a wierd story years ago dealing with what Snow White and Prince Charming did to the evil queen (Mallificent) after she was brought down. It was a bit sick to put it mildly, but it did raise a valid point that justice is blind for a reason, and simply killing her wouldn't have come anywhere near balancing the scales for the things she had done over a period of years. Of course while thought provoking on some levels, and working as a story in of itself, I saw it as more of an object lesson as to why we don't allow torture (and that's pretty much what this was, rape and torture occupying the same basic cosm of forced suffering).
That said, I have no problem with this kind of stuff in fantasy, and within games, either in terms of exploring the ideas, or just playing them out for entertainment. That's what the "M"/"X"/"R"/"AO" label is for depending on intensity. You really need an adult point of view before you should go there.
Also do not get the impression I'm some wierdo who wanders around reading tons of bizzare adult stuff non-stop (even if I admit I do read some). I'm speaking entirely within the subject.
I agree with Jim on some points, but not on others, and really I don't think he thought it out very well.
Rape became a gray area due to the human factor, and the seriousness of the accusation and relative lack of a need for evidence leading to abuse. One variation on the so called "honey trap" nowadays is for some girl to pick up a guy she knows has money for some kinky sex, perform a submissive role for a camera, and then turn around weeks or months later and engage in blackmail, or accuse the guy of an actual crime with an attached civil suit.
None of that has to do with the issue of rape in video games, but mostly in response to the "issue" of how people are increasingly trying to turn it into a gray area. It's not because people are saying there is nothing wrong with rape, it's because all of the proactive prosecution of accused rapists have open the system up to abuse, and we're gradually seeing a shift towards protecting people from the accusation. Due to the trauma involved in real cases Rape is one of the few crimes you can get someone convicted of, or win a civil suit based on, with little more than circumstantial evidence. A girl could for example claim Jim Sterling raped her weeks/months/years ago at a convention or something, and provide evidence they bumped into each other briefly, and pretty much drag him through the mud (and perhaps even win). Given the passage of time due to "trauma" the accused is pretty much put into a position of having to prove a negative for all intents and purposes, when generally speaking it's supposed to be up to the accuser (the rape victim and prosecution) to prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. Rape has been derailing the justice system in one way or another for long enough where it's shouldn't be surprising that we're seeing some backlash.
Now, as far as rape in video games goes... well here is where I'm going to say something really contreversial, above and beyond the above, and hopefully some people will read it, and even if they disagree will think about it:
There is nothing wrong with rape FANTASY. Both genders have fantasies about being forcibly taken/seduced by attractive members of the opposite gender (or their own if that is what they are into). Indeed being taken by some Fabio-like pirate or whatever is a stereo type in women's romance novels, where the term "Ravished" tends to be used in place of rape. In such fantasy the big thing is the victim starts out resisting, but eventually likes what happens, and things progress from there. Pretty much your typical submissive stuff that goes through the minds of most people while half asleep and giving themselves a good wank to send themselves off.
The reason why such stuff is adult material, is because the consumer of the media has to be able to clearly divide fantasy from reality, something kids aren't nessicarly going to be able to do. What works in fantasy, doesn't work in reality. You need to be able to understand that if you go out and rape some lady she's not going to get into it over time and fall madly in love with you, because it's "what she really wants when she tells you how repulsive you are". Things like that do not end well in real life.
When it comes to me, the basic determining factor on if something is going too far, is the simple question of whether the victim winds up enjoying it within the fantasy. If the rapist and victim could both pass as ceterfolds (male or female) and it's part of a story that generally has a happy ending, then I really don't have much of an issue. If you have someone being used for amusement in the private chambers of a drow dominatrix, or held prisoner in the private quarters of Dread Pirate Fabio, chances are it's not an issue.
On the other hand if it's done in a fashion based entirely off of sadism (and not the enjoyable kind) and the victims are simply discarded, having obtained no form of enjoyment from the experience, then yeah... that's a little creepy, as it generally comes across as misogynist/miandrist.
As odd as this will sound, I will say that I've occasionally run into some thought provoking stuff that falls between the two extremes. Jim's point about how death ends, and a rape victims have to live on with the knowlege of the crime is a pretty accurate one. Over the years I've read some things about how the only fair way to really punish a rapist would be for them to themselves be raped as you can't even acheive parity with the crime no matter enter the punitive without that given that it's such a grotesque occurance. There is also the point that in some cases with certain kinds of crimes it might be also be seen as kind of valid as a punishment. I was reading a wierd story years ago dealing with what Snow White and Prince Charming did to the evil queen (Mallificent) after she was brought down. It was a bit sick to put it mildly, but it did raise a valid point that justice is blind for a reason, and simply killing her wouldn't have come anywhere near balancing the scales for the things she had done over a period of years. Of course while thought provoking on some levels, and working as a story in of itself, I saw it as more of an object lesson as to why we don't allow torture (and that's pretty much what this was, rape and torture occupying the same basic cosm of forced suffering).
That said, I have no problem with this kind of stuff in fantasy, and within games, either in terms of exploring the ideas, or just playing them out for entertainment. That's what the "M"/"X"/"R"/"AO" label is for depending on intensity. You really need an adult point of view before you should go there.
Also do not get the impression I'm some wierdo who wanders around reading tons of bizzare adult stuff non-stop (even if I admit I do read some). I'm speaking entirely within the subject.
I agree with Jim on some points, but not on others, and really I don't think he thought it out very well.
As a *male* Law Enforcement officer, and one in the military at that, I wholeheartedly agree with all points Jim. Rape is something in the world we live in that has two different identities. It is hate and frowned on (when caught and put in the pen with the general population, a rapist is in for a lovely time) yet prior to a conviction an almost, air of compassion is extended to the accused, almost as if they are a victim unto themselves.
Having dealt with a a few rape cases over the years my own theory on why this dichotomy exists (and is heightened in the military 10 fold) is that there is a certain shame in allowing oneself (that is to say, the victim) BE a victim. I think it relates to the seemingly natural prudishness of humans in most cultures that views sex as something that requires REAL effort to attain and that if a rape victim "allowed" that to happen, then they are somehow at fault for not protecting themselves as well as they should have. That's my theory at least. It certainty seems evident when interviewing accused rapists in the Army.
Also to anyone interested; yes men can be raped, yes women CAN be rapists (not all rapes are, lets say, mechanical, for example if a women held you (assuming male reader) down and forced a broomstick up your *** you'd probable consider yourself raped).
Having dealt with a a few rape cases over the years my own theory on why this dichotomy exists (and is heightened in the military 10 fold) is that there is a certain shame in allowing oneself (that is to say, the victim) BE a victim. I think it relates to the seemingly natural prudishness of humans in most cultures that views sex as something that requires REAL effort to attain and that if a rape victim "allowed" that to happen, then they are somehow at fault for not protecting themselves as well as they should have. That's my theory at least. It certainty seems evident when interviewing accused rapists in the Army.
Also to anyone interested; yes men can be raped, yes women CAN be rapists (not all rapes are, lets say, mechanical, for example if a women held you (assuming male reader) down and forced a broomstick up your *** you'd probable consider yourself raped).
I think its just my philosophical view here that disturbs my view, but personally I think killing is far worse than rape. It is a definitive end. Unless you are religious and actually believe in afterlife, I understand not holding death as bad as I do, but any atheist who thinks its better to die than be raped really has not pondered exactly how final death is.
Any wound can heal, death cant. If you'd rather take bullet than be tortured that is your call, but unless all hope for better future is lost, I would fight tooth and claw for my last breath.
For the record when I play them games, I usually kill, murder and torture without remorse in abundance, regardless of my view on value of life. (or because of it? Who knows.)
Given the choice between rape game with force-feedback codpiece and a realistic kill simulator where every single enemy organ and artery can be my target, I'd say hold the clean boxers and bring me my best murder music. Unless the Killsim is an FPS with the option of peering to your opponents eyes as the life ebbs away. In that case, I'll probably need to change afterwards.
Any wound can heal, death cant. If you'd rather take bullet than be tortured that is your call, but unless all hope for better future is lost, I would fight tooth and claw for my last breath.
For the record when I play them games, I usually kill, murder and torture without remorse in abundance, regardless of my view on value of life. (or because of it? Who knows.)
Given the choice between rape game with force-feedback codpiece and a realistic kill simulator where every single enemy organ and artery can be my target, I'd say hold the clean boxers and bring me my best murder music. Unless the Killsim is an FPS with the option of peering to your opponents eyes as the life ebbs away. In that case, I'll probably need to change afterwards.
I'm fairly certain his conclusion was "Make whatever rape game you want, but don't be surprised when I judge you for it," I took that to mean that nothing was actually "taboo" in his eyes, or rather he would use his mighty monkey brain to help him decide whether to dislike it or not. He went on at length how Rape can be used in a narrative structure to define a badguy as being Purely Bad, and it sounds like those games you mentioned clearly fall into that category.The Cheshire said:
In short, I don't think he missed those parts at all.
Amazing video, I think sometimes the shortest discussions are the best as you have to sum up your point in the clearest possible way, Jim did that with remarkable accuracy and clarity.
Rape can be worse than murder as it leaves a lasting stain, then again I would probably prefer my daughter (I don't really have one) to be raped rather than murdered, because she would still be alive. It depends on how mentally tough the rape victim is and if they recover or not. This is not an issue that can be just casually decided.
A strong person will recover from rape no one recovers from death.
A strong person will recover from rape no one recovers from death.
The point about the defenceless victim idea made me think of the "No Russian" level of Modern Warfare 2. There was controversy about that scene, and even when I played it I felt uncomfortable, though never once did I feel it during any other part of the game. On the other hand, killing innocents in Red Dead Redemption didn't effect me so much. I guess in one you're playing as the "good guy" and in RDR your morality can be kinda shrouded.
At the risk of sounding like an ignorant moron I pose my thoughts on the subject:
Rape in my eyes is equally heinous as murder and torture.
What I've never gotten is the clothes argument. Of course you shouldn't tell a victim something to the effect of: "You silly, wearing tight jeans is what got you raped." But wearing certain kinds of clothes can titillate rapists. A friend of mine got catcalled in public because she was wearing shorts and the whole disgusting debacle may have been avoided if she was wearing baggy pants. This is not to say that wearing a Burka completely prevents rape, but dressing conservatively might help you avoid unwanted attention, still I am not one to dictate how women dress. (This is ignoring rape cases were the perpetrator and the victim know each others or were the victims were children)
Of course you can flame me away, have fun!
Rape in my eyes is equally heinous as murder and torture.
What I've never gotten is the clothes argument. Of course you shouldn't tell a victim something to the effect of: "You silly, wearing tight jeans is what got you raped." But wearing certain kinds of clothes can titillate rapists. A friend of mine got catcalled in public because she was wearing shorts and the whole disgusting debacle may have been avoided if she was wearing baggy pants. This is not to say that wearing a Burka completely prevents rape, but dressing conservatively might help you avoid unwanted attention, still I am not one to dictate how women dress. (This is ignoring rape cases were the perpetrator and the victim know each others or were the victims were children)
Of course you can flame me away, have fun!
Very well done.
Before watching this, I was fully on the side of "Murder is worse. Why shouldn't we have rape?", and in 8 minutes you had me fully convinced.
Gotta say Jim, you don't often do that...
Before watching this, I was fully on the side of "Murder is worse. Why shouldn't we have rape?", and in 8 minutes you had me fully convinced.
Gotta say Jim, you don't often do that...
So killing in video games is OK so long as it's justifiable in the fiction, such as being the hero and defending yourself in a war game?
And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)
What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a ***** in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?
In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)
So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.
We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.
We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.
And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)
What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a ***** in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?
In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)
So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.
We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.
We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.
I consider Rape, along with the murder of Children, both actions that shouldn't be used in a game yet. As Jim stated, Rape leaves the victim with no means of self defense, as does attacking a child. However, I think games should be able to include both. Not necessarily as an action that your character commits, but as perhaps part of the narrative. A protagonist who was sexually abused could not only be an interesting new perspective (if handled correctly of course), but could also be a helpful tool in allowing real victims of the crime to feel represented in our medium.
Even if you're killing someone in a war or in self defence, it will most definately have a tremendous effect on the dead guy's family. Killing is worse than rape, but as this video pointed out, you can't really justify rape.
Do I believe playing a video game were you rape someone is worse than playing a video game were you kill someone?
Not really.
Do I believe playing a video game were you rape someone is worse than playing a video game were you kill someone?
Not really.