Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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aattss

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May 13, 2012
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So, porn is legal but rape in the gaming industry isn't?

So what if someone is selling a product you personally don't like? Are you trying to impose your beliefs on others?

Besides, the thing is that murder can be justified. You're killing a bad person, and if you don't, you'll get killed. The military is allowed to kill (some) people, but we don't have a branch for raping people. Raping innocent people is only a little worse than killing innocent people. There is no situation in which raping is more morally justifiable than killing. At least killing someone doesn't scar them for life. Also, there's intent. Most people who want to commit rape have a bad intent, and you don't even get any material gains, but killing can be more of a socioeconomic decision (even if it's a bad one).
 

CardinalPiggles

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mad825 said:
CardinalPiggles said:
mad825 said:
CardinalPiggles said:
Well in all seriousness, no, no rape is not as bad as killing, ever. I thought everyone knew this? Physically and mentally victimising someone, leaving them traumatised for the rest of their life, potentially giving them STD's and/or making them pregnant is worse than stabbing them in the head.

I would take the stab in the head over that other shit any day.
And yet if someone murdered you. People who were close to you would be traumatised for the rest of their life.
And yet if someone did murder me, my family and friends wouldn't have felt victimised and they wouldn't have had to worry about STD's and or pregnancy either. Murder is the lesser of two evils.
STD's (If not viral) and pregnancy isn't really too bad and would come under psychological trauma. Modern medicine knows a thing or two around this.

None of these acts should be committed in the first place and in fact over sympathising for rape may just seem a little gender bias and perhaps an over reaction? Granted, it's by far from pleasant but at least you can seek redemption ("justice")? You won't be defeated by an immoral act? You still can grow, change and be happy. There is a way back unlike death.

Death is a binary state and know one knows life beyond death. Isn't that what all animals, all humans fear the most? isn't our ultimate duty to survive no matter the odds?
I think humans are past the point of being totally ruled by our animal instincts by now.

Just now thinking about it, maybe it comes down to how optimistic you are. See I'm a pessimist, I give up way too easily, and therefore see death as a way out. An optimist however would see death as a point of missed opportunity, a point of no return. So death would be worse for an optimist.

Or maybe I'm just spouting bullshit and need to go to sleep, heh.
 

Don Savik

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All of you rape apologists confuse me. Yes society glorifies violence to some degree, but WHY would you possibly want to make rape just as popular? What do we gain from having rape commonplace as killing people in video games?

I guess I shouldn't expect anything special from a forum of mostly 20ish and under males to be honest. I think a few people here are incapable of imagining the mindset of the victim. If your reasoning is essentially "well if your dead your dead, but rape victims still get to live herp derp" it just shows you how seriously people are actually taking the subject.

good video Jim
 

Frission

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May 16, 2011
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I'm flabbergasted. This was actually done in a way that wasn't completely offensive. There's also no flame war to be seen in such a long topic. (Then again what kind of person would defend rape of all things?)
 

Fox Lee

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Jun 26, 2012
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Jim pretty much nailed it. I'm surprised that this is even a thing; as nasty as killing is, it's well-recognised that there are justifiable reasons to do it. You can kill in self-defence, you can kill to hasten a slower and more painful death, you can kill to protect others, you can kill for the sake of your country... somehow "rape" does not work in any of those sentences.

Sure, killing in video games can often be distasteful, even crass and cheap, but it's typically being done for one of these justifiable reasons (with obvious exceptions like GTA). There is no justifiable rape, no matter how hard a bad webcomic may try to convince you.
 

lord.jeff

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It's kind of surreal seeing this many people just casually accept violence and killing as are standard for what's okay to show in a video game, as long as you can justify that it's more tasteful then spreading someones brain matter across the wall it's a okay. I'm completely okay with violent games but I can't be the only one to find it a little weird at how much of a non issue it is?
 

The_Lost_King

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5ilver said:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.
Why would you need to heal your self after you died you are in a better place or you are gone. Either way you don't need healing and don't have to live with the consequences of dying. In heaven you aren't going to cry in a corner about dying. If there is nothing after death then you can't feel anything so you don't need to be healed. I don't quite see your logic.
lord.jeff said:
It's kind of surreal seeing this many people just casually accept violence and killing as are standard for what's okay to show in a video game, as long as you can justify that it's more tasteful then spreading someones brain matter across the wall it's a okay. I'm completely okay with violent games but I can't be the only one to find it a little weird at how much of a non issue it is?
Why should killing be an issue in games? It has been easily portrayed in other mediums with no problem. Sure rape has but there has never been a move or book about rape(unless it is to halp a victim). Now there have been plenty of movies with killing. Some of them way more grotesque than you will see in video games(ala Saw).
 

Starke

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Jim, this is quite possibly your best video so far. I'm not sure if you're better off ditching the overt humor wholesale, but at least on serious issues, it's good to know you're up to the task.
 

ward0630

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I give Jim a lot of credit for being so willing to openly address this subject. It was extremely ballsy of him to do this video, and I respect him all the more for it.
 

Guilherme Zoldan

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Just putting in my two cents here. I agree with Jim that there are plenty of good reasons Rape is seen as worse then murder. or at least more hated then that. I dont think one can argue which is moraly worse then the other.
Though killing has more variblaes, it can be just as bad as rape.
Then again one cant quantify how bad a crime is...Still, neither should be done.

Now if I think video games are allowed to portray that? I do. Why the fuck not, every other artform is allowed to adress the subject.
 

Jigero

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I think rape is just as much fair game as torture. How many times have we seen torture in video games? It has the same long lasting effects as rape, and can be just as traumatizing if not more.

But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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I can think of a lot of ways you can be a victim of murder and have to live with it. The murdered isn't the only one who could be witness. And in that case, arguing murder's relative harmless to rape becomes less... solid. I mean, I know friends who have watched people be killed in front of them. Are they not a victim of murder? Shellshocked soldiers, are they?

That's my only real issue with the argument though. Everything else is pretty solid. But really, that this topic has even been coming up recently shows just how petty and incessant the gaming industry and community really is. Film and books have moved past this ages ago. But in gaming, both its audience and creators, it's an area that needs debate...? What. What.

It's immature, it's childish. This and the whole gender wars and politics in gaming. It all reeks of a high schooler's approach to the subjects. It's honestly baffling.

Jigero said:
I think rape is just as much fair game as torture. How many times have we seen torture in video games? It has the same long lasting effects as rape, and can be just as traumatizing if not more.

But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.
When they release a game about torture, in which you commit the torture, come back to me.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Jim, let me go over a few things for you:

1.) Statistics for rape by gender are incredibly unreliable. For starters, the legal codes in most countries define rape as a crime only a man is capable of committing. In the UK, for instance, female rapists cannot be charged as such because the act of rape requires having a penis. The most commonly quoted rape statistics for the US come from the NCVS, a survey which defined rape purely as a penetrative act. This meant that the only female rapists counted were the ones that used strap-ons and that most victims of female rapists, female as well as male, were completely erased. The successor to that survey, the NISVS, counted rape by envelopment but listed it under "other sexual violence" as "forced to penetrate". This meant that the majority of male rape victims were not counted in the "rape" statistics and female victims of female rapists were still completely erased. Rectifying this error in categorization gives numbers far closer to parity for both perpetration and victimization. However, these numbers are still not terribly reliable because the NISVS has come under heavy criticism for using definitions designed to inflate their statistics far beyond the actual instance of rape in the US. This leaves out rape in prisons, where some estimates place the number of male victims in excess of those in the civilian female population and recent studies have shown female guards to commit a disproportionate number of rapes (often framed as "relationships" or the woman being "seduced" when reported in the media). In the Congo, rape of male captives is a widespread cultural practice ignored by both international media and aid organizations.

2.) It is a blatant falsehood that society does not tell men not to rape. Upon entering university, I was required to attend three separate programs on how not to commit rape (current legal definitions mean that it is often possible to do so entirely by accident). Female students were exempt from all three sessions and no mention that men could be raped or should take precautions against being rape was ever made. Indeed, I did not hear about men being raped outside of prison until it happened to someone I knew. As you yourself mentioned, rape is seen as a horrific crime in our society. Where are these messages telling men that rape is okay?

3.) It is incredibly dishonest to frame rape as purely or primarily an act of physical force used to overpower a victim. The majority of rapes in our society involve the use of drugs or alcohol to render the victim incapable of resisting, or the use of social or economic pressures to force their submission. Men are just as susceptible to these methods as women, and it is incredibly dismissive and dishonest to say they have nothing to worry about. That the average man does not fear being raped is not a testament to his protection from that possibility, but to the fact that no one has ever educated him of the possibility or warned him to be careful.

You are, however, generally correct in your reasoning as to why rape is both less common and less okay than murder in games, although I think you significantly underestimate the effect depictions of graphic violence can have on victims of actual violence (they don't all die, and it can be every bit as traumatic).
 

Metalrocks

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good points. just a little surprised he dint say anything about tomb raider. there was a huge outcry regarding lara getting sort of raped. or better said, intended getting raped. CD was forced to apologize due misunderstanding. but still, they got in trouble because of this scene in the trailer.

rape is bad, we all agree with that. but then i ask my self why no one makes a problem if you see a scene like this in movies or read about it in books. so why are games seen as the bad guy here? unless you take full control to rape someone, its more then understandable that this is a problem but just seeing it in a game, is not as bad as in movies.
 

Yabu

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Starik20X6 said:
Thank Jim for Jim.

Rape is a whole other level of evil than murder, and it disturbs me that people want to include something so horrendous in their leisure time. I don't get the whole 'gun-wank' thing, much less why anyone would want to play a game that glorifies such an unmitigatedly evil crime.

That said, I've got no problem with a game that features a rapist getting what they deserve (having their 'weapon' taken away from them). A lot of game stories are built on revenge, and getting revenge for a rape would be a damn strong motivation. It's when you decide that you're going to glorify it, or make it a core mechanic of the game, that you cross the line and should have your genitals removed.
This comment is ridiculous and actually quite frightening. Rape is more evil than murder? When did human life become so cheap?

And anyone who plays the evil path of a game where they abuse NPC's verbally and or physically in order to achieve a role of dominance, are essentially playing a game as a rapist, even if they don't do anything sexual. Victims of domestic abuse, or even bullying are often haunted in the same way as rape victims and society often disregards these people in a similar way as well.
 

hooksashands

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daltonlaffs said:
Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.
Is it really right to go with the "It could be worse, they could be raping real people" hand-wave here? To me that's even worse. Not that they're raping fictional characters, but that we have to cater to them as our very own rapist demographic... or else. That scares me. A lot.
 

Yabu

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hooksashands said:
daltonlaffs said:
Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.
Is it really right to go with the "It could be worse, they could be raping real people" hand-wave here? To me that's even worse. Not that they're raping fictional characters, but that we have to cater to them as our very own rapist demographic... or else. That scares me. A lot.
But I suppose "It could be worse, they could be killing real people" is okay?