Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[Negatempest]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

 

[axlryder]

To Jim's point, there are a LOT of games where you simply kill innocent people who have done nothing wrong. You can take their lives without a second thought. That is every bit as vile as rape in my eyes. If someone just came up and shot my mother in the head and walked away, well, you can't tell me "at least he didn't rape her and leave her alive". There are games that allow you to do that sort of killing.

My point is, I don't think people should justify all killing as somehow being "better" than rape. I realize that's not what Jim was trying to do, and that there is a grey area with killing, but needless killing of the innocent far surpasses that grey area. That said, I don't think these games should be censored. Just as I don't think games about rape should be censored. People SHOULD be able to have their Rapelays. Just because we as a culture collectively view it as vile and disgusting act doesn't mean that we suddenly should have the right to say what forms of entertainment people can and can't have (as long as it's not directly endangering someone else). Imo anyway.

 

[psijac]

In AvP for PC you could play as an Alien face hugger. Isn't that a form of rape game play mechanic?

 

[punipunipyo]

well said, "victim" factor is kinda the key, but the murder games with "victim" in it would totally defeat that one (skyrim;Evil characters/missions/choices, or remember MassEffect3 when you shot Merdin in the back to keep Genealfauge?) Need more solid stuff, this alone, you would still be attacked... but over all, a VERY NICE, and well done Vid... May I ask Why this subject? just out of curiosity...

 

[axlryder]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

 

[Negatempest]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

 

[Something Amyss]

Don't kill dates back to Hammurabi, way before Christianity or Jesus were a thing.

Yes, and I'm sure Jim was quoting Hammurabi and not the (Hebrew, I might add) Ten Commandments.

 

[axlryder]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

I feel like you're assuming that evidence must be peer reviewed in order for it to be valid. I don't find that's really the case. It simply means it can't be scientifically validated. Denial (at least if you're using it in the Freudian sense) is more about refusing to accept something that is apparent. If a person sees or experiences something that might make them question the "life sucks and then you die" model of thinking, well they're really not in denial in questioning/refuting that model. Perhaps they're crazy or simply making assumptions (speculating on that would just be conjecture), but that doesn't mean they're necessarily in denial. Also, since you acknowledged you generalizing about the whole "afterlife" thing, cool I guess.

 

[Nouw]

What was the game at 0:53?

 

[Dimitriov]

Thank God for Jim.

But seriously that sums up all my thoughts very neatly. I have never understood why anyone would consider murder worse than rape.

 

[Negatempest]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

You're assuming that evidence must be peer reviewed in order for it to be valid. That's really not the case. It simply means it can't be scientifically validated. Denial is more about refusing to accept something that is apparent. If a person sees or experiences something that might make them question the "life sucks and then you die" model of thinking, well they're really not denying anything. Again, miracles. Also, as long as you can accept that you were generalizing about the whole "afterlife" thing, whatever.

Your partly right about the denial part. When people really want to believe something happens after death, it is the denial of believing that blankness happens after death. Either could be right, but they don't want to believe that blankness is an option. Miracles.....can be left to chance. It's both lucky and a miracle that people can survive certain car crashes. ....Why are we derailing this thread XD.

 

[axlryder]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

You're assuming that evidence must be peer reviewed in order for it to be valid. That's really not the case. It simply means it can't be scientifically validated. Denial is more about refusing to accept something that is apparent. If a person sees or experiences something that might make them question the "life sucks and then you die" model of thinking, well they're really not denying anything. Again, miracles. Also, as long as you can accept that you were generalizing about the whole "afterlife" thing, whatever.

Your partly right about the denial part. When people really want to believe something happens after death, it is the denial of believing that blankness happens after death. Either could be right, but they don't want to believe that blankness is an option. Miracles.....can be left to chance. It's both lucky and a miracle that people can survive certain car crashes. ....Why are we derailing this thread XD.

Ah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your use of denial. My bad. Though, I think it's fair to say that they may actually want to believe in the blankness option. The prospect of an afterlife isn't necessarily welcoming to everyone. Also, as to miracles, there have been reports of miracles that are far more convincing than miraculous car crash survivals...at least if you believe they happened. I've witnessed a couple myself. Though, despite that, I still tend to veer towards a nihilistic perspective lol.

but yeah, rape is bad and stuff.

 

[Negatempest]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

You're assuming that evidence must be peer reviewed in order for it to be valid. That's really not the case. It simply means it can't be scientifically validated. Denial is more about refusing to accept something that is apparent. If a person sees or experiences something that might make them question the "life sucks and then you die" model of thinking, well they're really not denying anything. Again, miracles. Also, as long as you can accept that you were generalizing about the whole "afterlife" thing, whatever.

Your partly right about the denial part. When people really want to believe something happens after death, it is the denial of believing that blankness happens after death. Either could be right, but they don't want to believe that blankness is an option. Miracles.....can be left to chance. It's both lucky and a miracle that people can survive certain car crashes. ....Why are we derailing this thread XD.

Ah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your use of denial. My bad. Though, I think it's fair to say that they may actually want to believe in the blankness option. The prospect of an afterlife isn't necessarily welcoming to everyone. Also, as to miracles, there have been reports of miracles that are far more convincing than miraculous car crash survivals...at least if you believe they happened. I've witnessed a couple myself. Though, despite that, I still tend to veer towards a nihilistic perspective lol.

but yeah, rape is bad and stuff.

XD. Car crash just an example. To me a "miracle" is such intense luck that to believe it to be pure "chance" would seem ridiculous. Also I really don't like the word "miracle" because it usually comes in the form of believing to be favored by some form of "God". Which tends to put some people in a bit of a high XD.

p.s. Good night, going to bed.

 

[Harbinger_]

Continue with videos like this and I'll continue to watch them.

 

[GonzoGamer]

The sad part is, people have to be reminded not to rape. Kinda tells you somthin aboot humans doesn't it?

You mean about our tendency to ignore the obvious?

What I wonder about these games is do they depict realistic rape or "rape fantasies?" I have nothing against what people do in their own time provided they have a clear safeword but anyone who wants to play a game that simulates real rape should probably get some free medication with their pre-order.

 

[axlryder]

So wait, Torture is more okay than rape?...even though both are exactly the same thing in the form of the whole "Power" argument you were making? True I would find neither rape or murder okay. Also men do not just rape because of media influence. They were either traumatized or psychologically messed up already.

The true common sense comes from playing "influential" games but knowing better than to do any of it. Though Rape is a societal issue, not a moral one. Also, murder is not always equal on both sides. Most of the time the victims never see it coming and/or are never prepared. Sure it's "quick", but the fact is that once murder does happen...that victim no longer exists in any physical form we know of. Sure "religion" is an excuse to believe there is something to look forward to, but that is just self-denial until proven of the afterlives existence...which is a pretty scary thought for some people.

"afterlife" is a very narrow way of looking at all religious perspectives, and some people's religious beliefs are genuinely rooted deeper than "self denial" (the most solid example would be through various manifestations of miraculous/spiritual experiences). I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just say that's a rather presumptuous statement you made.

Oh I agree. But you already know how much more detail I would have to go to include every single point of view of what happens after death. That could be a whole blog on it's own. Point being, most of us would really like to believe there is something after death...even though there is no evidence of such a possibility. aka denial. Quite a harsh word it is. I personally have no idea what to expect because I have never seen the afterlife. So I can't say one way or another.

It's like...when we want to believe the Devil is punishing the sinners instead of celebrating with them since they are...sinners...I don't know. It's not such an easy thing to accept that maybe that serial killer, once dead, may have a parade waiting for him by the demons.

You're assuming that evidence must be peer reviewed in order for it to be valid. That's really not the case. It simply means it can't be scientifically validated. Denial is more about refusing to accept something that is apparent. If a person sees or experiences something that might make them question the "life sucks and then you die" model of thinking, well they're really not denying anything. Again, miracles. Also, as long as you can accept that you were generalizing about the whole "afterlife" thing, whatever.

Your partly right about the denial part. When people really want to believe something happens after death, it is the denial of believing that blankness happens after death. Either could be right, but they don't want to believe that blankness is an option. Miracles.....can be left to chance. It's both lucky and a miracle that people can survive certain car crashes. ....Why are we derailing this thread XD.

Ah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your use of denial. My bad. Though, I think it's fair to say that they may actually want to believe in the blankness option. The prospect of an afterlife isn't necessarily welcoming to everyone. Also, as to miracles, there have been reports of miracles that are far more convincing than miraculous car crash survivals...at least if you believe they happened. I've witnessed a couple myself. Though, despite that, I still tend to veer towards a nihilistic perspective lol.

but yeah, rape is bad and stuff.

XD. Car crash just an example. To me a "miracle" is such intense luck that to believe it to be pure "chance" would seem ridiculous. Also I really don't like the word "miracle" because it usually comes in the form of believing to be favored by some form of "God". Which tends to put some people in a bit of a high XD.

p.s. Good night, going to bed.

Haha, I can empathize with that, as that particular perspective is pervasive, though I can assure you that such a view isn't exclusive.

Have a good night.

 

[SonicKoala]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Are you suggesting that the level of emotional and physical trauma brought on by rape is on par with dental work? Because if you are, that's one of the stupidest thing I've ever heard - you clearly have absolutely no concept of the turmoil a rape victim goes through after the fact, not including the experience itself. You simply boil it down to "rape-pain", which is mind-boggingly ignorant and short-sighted.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

Like some people said, I could defend a game with rape in it, aka main villain you're after is a rapist among other things, but it's hard to defend a game where main character is expected to rape and rewarded for it.
It is perfectly valid to use most dark and evil things in media as long as you don't glorify it. You can't make rape or child murder look good, that's abysmal. You can use it in your game to show that some villain is beyond redemption and deserves death, sure, just be careful.
The whole reason of controversy is past experience with games being not sensitive with sensitive subjects,

 

[TazTheTerrible]

I disagree profoundly with this video. I don't disagree with any of the points that say rape is a really awful crime, but you just go ahead and trivialize murder way too much.

"It's something where the other guy can fight back." or "it can happen to anyone" or it being justified or framed in a way that shushes our conscience, ...

These things do not make it in any way ok.

The fact that our culture glorifies the erasing of a human existence makes it even worse. It is NOT a mitigating factor towards the act itself.

Then of course there's the whole "well people don't remember being dead" bit. No, they don't, but their friends and next of kin do. It's patently ridiculous to say that murder doesn't leave anyone hurt in its wake, and yet that's the message many popular media paint day in day out.

Yes, we are desensityzed towards fictive violence far more than we are towards fictive sexual content. That's a cultural phenomenon, not a moral compass. The fact that you like Hannibal despite him eating people means that you are simply more capable of ignoring the background noise of physically and psychologically mutilated people he would leave in his wake were he a real person, merely because he didn't put his dick in any of them.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to think of Lecter as a cool character, but I am saying that it is a bit hypocritical to morally judge roughly equally monstrous characters very differently based on whether or not their story contains rape, or judge a story based on an analogous judgement.

I will acknowledge that there's a difference between killing in combat (which is still not a good thing, but can be considered "less wrong") and outright murder, but there are murder games as well (where you seek out innocent, far less powerful victims who did nothing to deserve it and have no chance against you and proceed to brutalize them) and those really have no place being considered better than a rape game that progresses similarly.

Of course, no one forces you to like the creators of games like that either, but if you want to ban, censor or regulate one, you have to hold to that morality across the board. My own personal opinion is against censorship, no matter how awful the material, but I can respect other views on the matter, so long as they are self-consistent.

 

[jmarquiso]

The fact that our culture glorifies the erasing of a human existence makes it even worse. It is NOT a mitigating factor towards the act itself.

I agree with this statement, and has been a problem I've had with games in general. A game where death has weight in your decision making, is a game I want to play. The Last of Us looks like that will be the kind of game it tries to be.

I don't necessarily agree with the consistency part. When it comes down to it, our culture has decided that action movies where you mow down anonymous ninja henchmen is not only okay, but exciting.