Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

grassgremlin

New member
Aug 30, 2014
456
0
0
insaninater said:
By their argument, applied to both men and women, give me an example of people expressing their sexuality while having power. The argument equates sexual expressiveness to being subjected to the will of another person, and this is obviously a fallacy, if that was the case than nobody would actually have sexual desires, since all sexual desire is, by their argument, the result of an outside source, and if nobody had sexual desires, nobody would be there to impose said desires upon a proxy. If the argument is really sexist, and says that anytime women express sexuality, it's for men's benefit, will have to explain why homosexual female couples who don't make porn exist, and it's also just really dehumanizing to women in general to say that anytime they express sexuality it isn't genuine, but in service to an outside force, and again, even if that is the case, sex is a prerequisite for the continuation of the human race, and survival of the human species trumps respectable representation of women in video games. So even assuming all these truly absurd claims are 100% true, they still sit on the moral low ground.
I did some studying and I agree even more with this person's point.
Bayonetta is a fictional character.
She's being objectified by the camera and the game's control

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaleGaze
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirdPersonSeductress

For a straight male, she moves in ways to titillate him.
So yeah, in that way it's sexism.

Bayonetta takes this to its logical conclusion; her magical hair forms her costume, and is used for her attacks. This means that parts of her clothing disappear during attacks, and her finishing moves render her entirely naked aside from just enough coverage to keep it from getting an AO rating. The pure absurdity of the sex appeal on display in the trailers alone - never mind the final product - was almost certainly intentional on the part of the development team, many of whom are Clover refugees. Knowing their previous work, they seem quite happy taking Refuge in Audacity and keeping a self-mocking sense of humor throughout.

Even if it's mocking it, it's still sexism at work sense it's an all too common trope. It's beyond mocking at this point.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
0
0
Ugh, she's so disproportionate and her "sexy" often comes across as old librarian, not sexy librarian.

I am still regularly baffled when people use Bayonetta and "sexy" in the same discussion.
 

verylost

New member
Jul 30, 2010
10
0
0
grassgremlin said:
I did some studying and I agree even more with this person's point.
Bayonetta is a fictional character.
She's being objectified by the camera and the game's control

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaleGaze
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThirdPersonSeductress

For a straight male, she moves in ways to titillate him.
So yeah, in that way it's sexism.
You are aware Bayonetta is a hack and slash game? Look at other hack and slash games: God of War, Devil may Cry (Which Bayonetta is compared to the most), Onimusha, Dynasty Warriors. They all have a 3rd person camera because in most of those games you're surrounded by enemies and rewarded for getting a high combo.

grassgremlin said:
Bayonetta takes this to its logical conclusion; her magical hair forms her costume, and is used for her attacks. This means that parts of her clothing disappear during attacks, and her finishing moves render her entirely naked aside from just enough coverage to keep it from getting an AO rating. The pure absurdity of the sex appeal on display in the trailers alone - never mind the final product - was almost certainly intentional on the part of the development team, many of whom are Clover refugees. Knowing their previous work, they seem quite happy taking Refuge in Audacity and keeping a self-mocking sense of humor throughout.

Even if it's mocking it, it's still sexism at work sense it's an all too common trope. It's beyond mocking at this point.
You know I could argue this. Bayonetta the character is a subversion in herself of witches in general. Look at the most notable witches in pop culture. They are either portrayed as very conservative in what they wear, or ugly, or are just horrible people, or are outcasts from society. Now look at Bayonetta a general free-spirit, obviously not ugly, saves the world, and is not outcasted from society.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
insaninater said:
Silentpony said:
grassgremlin said:
Silentpony said:
Rellik San said:
Silentpony said:
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
So, by your logic, if a character, or person, ever expresses any form of sexuality, they don't have any power? Just expressing sexuality at all is akin to declaring yourself an object? By your argument, it's literally impossible to be sexual and still show agency, in which case agency needs to take a back seat to survival of the human species, but that's a moot point anyway, considering how stupid the notion that people can't be sexual of their own volition is.
Not really, no. I actually don't have a problem with any of the things Bayonetta does. What I have a problem with is the reasons people are using to show why Bayonetta isn't offensive. I can roll with Bayonetta has agency, but here's the thing, if she does, then every and all video game characters do. I'm assuming Bayonetta's agency comes from the player, and as her controller, we can impart our own agency on to her. If Bayonetta gets a pass because 'she has agency' and she's 'confident' and 'in control of the situation' then every character, no matter the context, needs to get that too. We can't have a double standard, especially when it comes to sexism and objectification.
Bayonetta, as a fictional character put in contrived fiction scenarios where she is written to act over-sexually gets to have 'agency' and 'control', then fuck it, so do all the girls from DoA Volleyball.(at least all playable ones) They can't not! If we're declaring fictional people have awareness enough to have agency, if someone Bayonetta gets to transcend her identity as a character to a person with hopes/dreams and preferences, including sexual, then that same transcendence needs to apply to everyone. We can't declare Bayonetta 'not sexist' and 'not an object' with reasons, the eventually, boil down to 'because we don't want her to be'

Even a playable character in a situation out of his/her control gets agency because we, the player, are still in control of them. So no matter what happens in game, IRL we still have our agency and impart that to our characters.

I'll put in this way. If I write the sentence "Sally went left." and you wrote the sentence "Grace went right." would it be fair to say my character, Sally, has agency and control over her situation and your character, Grace, is just a means to an end for you; Grace has no agency.
In short, no. No it wouldn't. Now just extrapolate that to any other written character in any other written situation. When does Bayonetta receive and/or attain this blessed control over her situation, or when do the girls of DoA lose theirs? Is there a cut-scene I missed? Or a mistranslated line?
 

ZippyDSMlee

New member
Sep 1, 2007
3,959
0
0
I dunno for harm/death threats and the like there is no butts/howevers. As for the "I am not racist but" thing if one declares they are not racist but see's a stereotype and comments on it, it dose not make one a racist....

Racism is about one being more superior not one making a random statement that coincidentally might seem racist by a third party that dose not have all the information.
 

grassgremlin

New member
Aug 30, 2014
456
0
0
insaninater said:
So sexy fictional characters are, by default, sexist? Again, conflating sexy with objectified. It's a work of fiction, she has to have an author no matter what. Do you know what objectified means? It means being treated like an object, I.E. being acted upon and not acting, acting without agency. Jim already addressed that she has full agency, as much as a fictional character can have agency, so claims of objectivity are completely bunk and you know it. Claims of sexualization, which by the way is actually different from objectification, which should be obvious, but anyway, would be completely valid, sure. But again, sex = necessary for complex life + orgasms = good. You're basically still saying either sexually expressive females are inherently sexist, or that simply by being a fictional work, they become so, which is a tragic restriction you've set on fiction.

You're basically saying any time there might be anything that could possibly be appealing to heterosexual males sexist. Which is absurd. Sex appeal does not automatically make you sexist. Are prominent feminists who happen to be physically attractive to the opposite sex sexist people based on their looks? Does being sex-positive, which everyone should be, because again, sex = necessary for complex life + orgasms = good, make someone sexist? You're basically damning this character for embracing sexuality, and I want you to absorb just how ironic it is that feminists of all people are slut shaming. That's really all that is, slut shaming.

Yes she's a character, yes someone made her, but to damn her just because she's sexual and a character is ridiculous. You live in this bizzare world where it's impossible for women to embrace their own sexuality and the sexuality of others without looking for a puppetmaster, and that's a lot more sexist than embracing a character based on basal appeal alone.
Well, the difference between actual women and bayonetta is is that she's a fictional character.
I can understand why she can be found as sexist because, she is played by the player.
She's never liberating towards women. When she shows her sexuality, it's to entice men.

In short, the game already assumes that the male audience is playing no matter if a straight girl is. I argue when I play Bayonetta I imagine I am Bayonetta, but that's not the same for most women. They imagine that bayonetta thinks the player is male.

In short, in that regard, it's sexist. There's nothing to see here for a girl when the camera pans over her crouch and she poses in naked fashion. It doesn't really matter sense the fourth wall is ogling her.

But, It explains one thing. No video game character has agency, possibly.
 

grassgremlin

New member
Aug 30, 2014
456
0
0
Silentpony said:
Not really, no. I actually don't have a problem with any of the things Bayonetta does. What I have a problem with is the reasons people are using to show why Bayonetta isn't offensive. I can roll with Bayonetta has agency, but here's the thing, if she does, then every and all video game characters do. I'm assuming Bayonetta's agency comes from the player, and as her controller, we can impart our own agency on to her. If Bayonetta gets a pass because 'she has agency' and she's 'confident' and 'in control of the situation' then every character, no matter the context, needs to get that too. We can't have a double standard, especially when it comes to sexism and objectification.
Bayonetta, as a fictional character put in contrived fiction scenarios where she is written to act over-sexually gets to have 'agency' and 'control', then fuck it, so do all the girls from DoA Volleyball.(at least all playable ones) They can't not! If we're declaring fictional people have awareness enough to have agency, if someone Bayonetta gets to transcend her identity as a character to a person with hopes/dreams and preferences, including sexual, then that same transcendence needs to apply to everyone. We can't declare Bayonetta 'not sexist' and 'not an object' with reasons, the eventually, boil down to 'because we don't want her to be'

Even a playable character in a situation out of his/her control gets agency because we, the player, are still in control of them. So no matter what happens in game, IRL we still have our agency and impart that to our characters.

I'll put in this way. If I write the sentence "Sally went left." and you wrote the sentence "Grace went right." would it be fair to say my character, Sally, has agency and control over her situation and your character, Grace, is just a means to an end for you; Grace has no agency.
In short, no. No it wouldn't. Now just extrapolate that to any other written character in any other written situation. When does Bayonetta receive and/or attain this blessed control over her situation, or when do the girls of DoA lose theirs? Is there a cut-scene I missed? Or a mistranslated line?
Okay, after much analysis, I agree with your points, but it's raised a new conclusion.
No video game character has agency.
 

grassgremlin

New member
Aug 30, 2014
456
0
0
insaninater said:
Good job acting like homosexual people don't exist you prejudicial jerk. Of course it's a male audiance, because there's no way that there are women that could be attracted to other women right :p. And vidiya games are sexist because you're assuming men play them? If that's case, then every game ever is forever sexist because you're assuming women aren't playing it.

How is she not liberating anyway? Shooting up hoards of demons with magical powers sounds like one of the most liberating things a person could do. What do you want exactly? For her to ***** about the patriarchy on tumblr? Because that would be a shitty game. But of course, we're back to the problem that you see sex as only ever this evil thing that men are doing, of course women don't actually possess sexuality, right? And sex itself isn't a natural thing we should all embrace, but an evil product of the patriarchy, right? :p.

Sex. Doesn't. Imply. Gender. Prejudice.
Sexuality. Doesn't. Imply. Gender. Prejudice.
Physical appearance. Doesn't. Imply. Gender. Prejudice.

These are the only things you're basing any of this on. If bayonetta was an ugly prude you'd be all over the game, but because she's a beautiful strong woman who's not afraid of her own sexuality, that's when people like you get intimidated.

If you can prove that sex, sexuality, or physical appearance imply gender prejudice, which i very much doubt you can do, you might have a point, but otherwise, i'm sorry, but you're full of it. The existence of homosexual people itself pretty much renders your entire argument garbage, since, news flash, women can be attracted to women to, and your close-minded view of sexuality as "for another person of the opposite gender", which you just won't let go of, is a troublesome worldview that both isn't healthy, and not the only one to have.
I am a homosexual man. I like bayonetta. I can see why people will view her as sexist.
Here's an article. Read it. It'll be clearer to you. http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.com/2012/04/how-to-write-empowering-female.html

There's a link to a woman defending Bayonetta if it makes you happy.
 

Ikaruga33

New member
Apr 10, 2011
197
0
0
insaninater said:
grassgremlin said:
Silentpony said:
if Bayonetta whips monsters because we press buttons, if she does splits in front of the camera because we hit the QTEs, if she dances around in fetish outfits because we bought the DLC,if she strips naked and dances around because her writer, a female, wrote that was her character...
how much power does Bayonetta REALLY have?
Wait, what?
Of course she fucking whips monsters because we press buttons, it's a video game, not a movie. Bayonetta doesn't have any power because she is a fictional character. NO FICTIONAL CHARACTER HAS POWER. That's the point of fiction, you do what you want with your characters. Characters cannot do anything without the input of someone else, in this case, a writer and the player.

Also, how does a dominatrix "Dance to the victims tune" because there's a safe word? Isn't consent and choice a key part of sex?

Finally, who gives a shit if Bayonetta is fapbait? It doesn't hurt you. You don't have the right to be the moral police and say "this personally makes me feel uncomfortable, so you're not allowed to do it"
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
6,758
4,863
118
Country
United States
Why am I seeing visions of "Stop liking what I don't like" and "Stop disliking what I like"?

To some people, Bayonetta is sexism writ large, to others she is the epitome of the empowered female, and to yet more people she's something in between. Some of the people above write game reviews which include an arbitrary score that's given far more weight than it deserves.

Find reviewers that you like and listen to them. Ignore ones you don't like. Then help me burn Metacritic to the ground and salt the ashes.
 

MerlinCross

New member
Apr 22, 2011
377
0
0
altnameJag said:
Find reviewers that you like and listen to them. Ignore ones you don't like. Then help me burn Metacritic to the ground and salt the ashes.
I actually prefer Metacritic(THE IDEA) though. I like seeing a bunch of different reviews and opinions about a title.

The Score thing needs to go though and has been something we've been needing to do something about for ages.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
6,758
4,863
118
Country
United States
Oh yeah, a review aggregator that's a list of "here are all the reveiws" is a good idea in and of itself.

It's the current implementation and the publisher's reliance on arbitrary "Whose Line is it Anyway" numbers is bollocks.

(I know we're agreeing, I just can't stop ranting about it. *grr hiss*)
 

FenchurchSt

New member
Oct 14, 2014
8
0
0
Ahh I've been waiting for this discussion to come up... not about Bayonetta specifically, but in general. Well, the "it's okay to like something someone else doesn't and talk about it" thing has been gone over, but I'm talking specifically about female characters that are designed "sexy." Is it inherently bad? Is it good? Is there a middle-ground?

As a female gamer and a believer in the concept that "if you're asking a woman to be x, you're doing feminism wrong because she can be what she wants," I DO think there is middle ground for sure.

For example, I believe a person should be allowed to be feminine, to be sexy, or even be a homemaker if she /wants/ just as much as anything else. To me this Bayonetta debate is more a topic on character design than sexism--PERSONALLY.

I believe it's progressive in a way to have characters that aren't necessarily made to be just eye-candy but have motives to make it make sense. It's WAY better than shoehorning in "progressive" and "empowering" character traits into female characters, which is SO popular nowadays across all media.

Take the movie Tangled compared to Snow White. Rapunzel doesn't make much sense considering her background... you know, being a captive locked in a tower and having unreasonably long hair. Chances are she isn't very athletic... so they make her save the lead male with a frying pan or whatever. Compare this to Snow White, who doesn't even seem to have a character arc; at least she shows personality traits that, desirable or otherwise, are believable (kindness, trustworthiness, gullibility, etc.) as opposed to being indecisive, wanting to learn one specific thing, and being able to restrain people with her hair. They tell us what Rapunzel WANTS, but not what she IS. Sure, Snow White may be as interesting as bread to some people, but it's believable because we all know real people that are uninteresting.

In this way, although it's nothing new in the game industry, I find it nice to see that in a weird bass-ackwards way, women are at least allowed to be sexy sometimes, not just in looks, but in personality. What the world needs is more strong characters all around, not just "strong female characters" because the committee says it /looks/ progressive. To me, the more I see "strong female characters" in any media, the less interested I am; they're so... samey. They're actually less interesting than bread to me; you can put butter on bread without it saying a tired "independent woman" line like "not now, not ever, buddy."

This isn't a new debate either... Ivy is one of my favorite Soul Calibur characters and she has wobbly boob armor that wobbles all over the place. That's not why I like her... she's a fun challenge for me and she does actually have as decent a back story as any other Soul Calibur character. (She's also one of the most important characters in Soul Calibur Legends, which isn't that great of a game, but hey, I played it anyway.)


I really wish that we could legitimately just make all of the characters in a lot of games objectified in some way. I mean, even as a straight girl I don't mind playing as a wobbling sexy girl, but I doubly wouldn't mind if all the guy characters looked like Dante (any of the DMC games) or Alucard from Symphony of the Night. LOL. Geez, now that I think about it, Japan really has it better in that department than here in the US... I mean, look at the VARIETY of characters in Dynasty Warriors and Sengoku Basara... even in singleplayer games with only one character option there are a lot of different types of protagonists between games... all we seem to get are buff guys in brown armor. Even female characters are getting less wild in design lest they incur the wrath of somebody somewhere for some reason. Like... remember how Lara Croft used to look? Now even she's covered in brown with "photorealistic" characteristics. Though, in the same breath I must admit that a lot of Japanese characters, male and female, are little more than tropes placed in new scenarios. Hell, they even have names for these characters like "yandere" and "tsundere." So, "same guy" or "one of several preset guys" are our current options, I guess.

*sigh* Character design :'(
 

Rellik San

New member
Feb 3, 2011
609
0
0
grassgremlin said:
I am a homosexual man. I like bayonetta. I can see why people will view her as sexist.
Here's an article. Read it. It'll be clearer to you. http://exploringbelievability.blogspot.com/2012/04/how-to-write-empowering-female.html

There's a link to a woman defending Bayonetta if it makes you happy.
That's an interesting read, despite some needlessly flame baity language when discussing objectification. It also ties in to what I've been saying, what Jims said, what others have said, that yes taken on her own Bayonetta could be a sexist stereotype... if she was in the real world, but in her universe... she makes sense and I think that's something we need to bring back to the discussion is what does Bayonetta say about her world, is she a reaction or a catalyst to it, does her design fit in?

I think that's a point a lot of us forgot. Thank you for posting that and for reminding me of this key point.

I'd recommend people read that article, it starts off as something I was expecting to roll my eyes at but actually, is a decent read and brings up a lot of points for people on both sides of the debate. :)