Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

CaitSeith

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And again the "those who dislike what why like because of their personal preferences shouldn't make reviews" argument appears on the Internet. I'm pretty sure Nintendo won't cut Polygon out of its press material, because doing so would be a stupid business decision.
 

VioletHero

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I think Jim thorughly missed the point of why people do the "however" on twitter.

It isn't some secret way of condoning it, it is basically trying to say "We acknowledge that harassment is not okay under any circumstance, however, we're not going to let corrupt journalists continue to use the harassment people are facing to obfuscate the criticism."

This is something that they have been unabashedly doing since the beginning. If everyone took your advice, the corrupt ****ers who use this shameful tactic would win.
 

Tsun Tzu

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Callate said:
I...Wow. Just...Just this.

That was amazing and on point. Thank you for the break down.

Jennacide said:
Which then brings up the other issue, the reviewer in question is Polygon's reviews editor, and has a history of annoyance with the series. Being the editor, he CHOOSE to review a game he had a problem with instead of assigning it to someone else. If that doesn't scream agenda, I don't know what does.
This would be the major crux of the problem for me, personally.

Furthermore...It's Bayonetta 2. Not Bayonetta 1 or, hell, Hair and You: A Delightfully Banal Experience. If you don't know by now what you're getting in to or if you know for a fact that you dislike certain elements and that they're going to 'color' your view on it to the point where it's going to drastically impact the score... then what the hell are you doing reviewing the game?

You'd think a "reviews editor" would understand this very simple concept.
grassgremlin said:
Sexism in Gaming =/= Actual Porn.
I need to point this out. That isn't argument.

I draw porn constantly and can still criticize games for sexist shit.
It's about leaving your porn at the door when you create a product as much as you can.

Bayonetta isn't porn. It's a product sold to the masses.
I may not agree that she's sexist, but that reviewer is well in there right to criticize it for sexist tropes.
Just no.

Your drawing porn or something sexy is because, well, you want to draw porn or something sexy. I do it too. It's fun!

If a developer wants to make their game, or a character in their game, sexy or pornographic and it was their intent to do as much then what's the problem? There is absolutely no reason why a creator should be made to 'leave their porn at the door' when creating something.

By all means, continue criticizing, but to declare that a creator can't create what they want to create because it doesn't appeal to you or meet your standards of decency is just mind boggling.

Bayonetta is whatever its creators want it to be.

And, frankly, if you've invested in a porn site for a decade, it does erode your credibility as to what should and shouldn't be considered sexist by the public you're attempting to 'educate' on the subject.

...Also, SuicideGirls is an excellent website. Tatoo-laden, pierced, and punky girls? Unf.

Ahem, moving on.

MarsAtlas said:
Have you ever considered that some people find it uncomfortable when people try tp inject sex into a beat-em-up videogame? That maybe some people like to keep their sexual fantasies in one realm and videogames in another? That maybe many people don't play games for masturbation material but for a difference experience? It doesn't necessarily make you a prude because you don't like sex in videogames, and in my experience, most people don't like it because they don't want sexual fantasies in the same realm as gaming. I can only speak for myself, but if I wanted porn, I'd go watch porn. If I wanted a lap dance, I'd go get a lap dance, not experience a lap dance between shooting galleries in Duke Nukem. Its the same reason that when people generally want some excitement in their life and do something, like, say, skydiving, they don't bring sex workers skydiving with them.
Well, I have to disagree with this line of thought on its basic premise, as it relates to what's being discussed.

This isn't some subversive 'gotcha' type of sexuality that is just thrown into your face in an average, off the shelf beat 'em up. It's on the box and in the promotional material. You know what you're getting here.

It's Bayonetta! An established franchise, in which, the sexualization is an established element/trait of the character.

Truly, it's all well and good to not be into sex in your games, but you also have to realize that some games, specifically Bayonetta of all things, aren't going to cater to your desires and that there's a large enough market for said sex-injected titles to exist in, alongside non-sexual experiences.

That said, there are a plethora of titles, in all genres, that can and do avoid the sexificationy times! In point of fact, most vidya doesn't contain sexual or eroticized elements.

Side Note: Er...why did you go from just "people" to "some people" to "many people" to "most people"? I'm not sure if this was a deliberately progressive inflation, or if it was unintentional.
 

Something Amyss

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Kid Dynomite said:
My problem with Bayonetta is that I can't actually imagine her initiating or engaging in sexual intercourse.

For all the BDSM aesthetics and the lollipop licking innuendo, she doesn't actually strike me as a sexual being. She strikes me as a thirteen year old boy's "sexy drawing" from her giraffe-esque proportions to the "I just hit puberty and feel funny about my one teacher" librarian look. Bayonetta is the embodiment of a sort of chaste fetishization; the female equivalent of your virgin male friend who always blurts out, "That's what she said!" knowing he'd curl up into a nervous ball of insecurity if the proposition of his penis entering a vagina ever became a possibility. The fact Bayonetta's character design is from a woman isn't any more a counterargument than arguing Tyler Perry can't be a black "modern-day minstrel show" director.

Add in the "male gaze" aspect, and her characterization becomes even more baffling. Take the intro cutscene of Bayonetta 2: While she's dodging attacks, her dress gets torn off by lances and Bayonetta... titters erotically. What? Why? How is she possibly getting off on this? You'd think a sex positive character who routinely becomes nude during battle (her apathy toward it used as justification) wouldn't be so impressed by this particular instance of being disrobed yet, alas, for the sake of the nerds on the other side of the camera, she has to play it up. Likewise, are we supposed to find all the bondage-style whipping erotic? Is the game suggesting Bayonetta finds whipping angel/demon centaurs or what the fuck ever they are, hot? This lack of consideration reveals the primary concern to be the veneer of sexuality to Trojan horse in fan-service under the guise of "parody/irony" while actual characterization remains a distant second. Might as well have Dante sucking down oysters and licking envelopes while never actually trying to stick his dick in anything.

Lastly, the means by which she's empowered are distinct from the "sexuality" aspect. Curbstomping demons isn't a direct corollary of her being a "sexually-liberated woman". At absolute best, she's a clumsy parody of what the target-audience finds appealing. Luckily, the games are quite good, but defending the characterization of a cardboard cut-out in a cardboard plot seems as misguided as labeling Nicki Minaj's "Anaconda" video a feminist statement.
I don't have much to add, but I've got to say. This is verbalising more or less what runs through my head nearly every time I hear someone say that Bayonetta "is confident in" or "owns" her sexuality.

Unfortunately, most of the time I see it, my only reaction is David Silverman's response to Bill O'Reily.



So thanks.
 

Neferius

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Wait, hold the phone! ...that kid in the hoodie with the pyramid necklace looks familiar.
Holy cow, IS THAT YUGI MOTOU!?

Mother of Hell, it really IS! O.O

First the Blade lookalike, and now this? Bayonetta devs seem to be making a habit of it ^^
 

Deadcyde

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Kid Dynomite said:
My problem with Bayonetta is that I can't actually imagine her initiating or engaging in sexual intercourse.

For all the BDSM aesthetics and the lollipop licking innuendo, she doesn't actually strike me as a sexual being. She strikes me as a thirteen year old boy's "sexy drawing" from her giraffe-esque proportions to the "I just hit puberty and feel funny about my one teacher" librarian look. Bayonetta is the embodiment of a sort of chaste fetishization; the female equivalent of your virgin male friend who always blurts out, "That's what she said!" knowing he'd curl up into a nervous ball of insecurity if the proposition of his penis entering a vagina ever became a possibility. The fact Bayonetta's character design is from a woman isn't any more a counterargument than arguing Tyler Perry can't be a black "modern-day minstrel show" director.

Add in the "male gaze" aspect, and her characterization becomes even more baffling. Take the intro cutscene of Bayonetta 2: While she's dodging attacks, her dress gets torn off by lances and Bayonetta... titters erotically. What? Why? How is she possibly getting off on this? You'd think a sex positive character who routinely becomes nude during battle (her apathy toward it used as justification) wouldn't be so impressed by this particular instance of being disrobed yet, alas, for the sake of the nerds on the other side of the camera, she has to play it up. Likewise, are we supposed to find all the bondage-style whipping erotic? Is the game suggesting Bayonetta finds whipping angel/demon centaurs or what the fuck ever they are, hot? This lack of consideration reveals the primary concern to be the veneer of sexuality to Trojan horse in fan-service under the guise of "parody/irony" while actual characterization remains a distant second. Might as well have Dante sucking down oysters and licking envelopes while never actually trying to stick his dick in anything.

Lastly, the means by which she's empowered are distinct from the "sexuality" aspect. Curbstomping demons isn't a direct corollary of her being a "sexually-liberated woman". At absolute best, she's a clumsy parody of what the target-audience finds appealing. Luckily, the games are quite good, but defending the characterization of a cardboard cut-out in a cardboard plot seems as misguided as labeling Nicki Minaj's "Anaconda" video a feminist statement.
I don't have much to add, but I've got to say. This is verbalising more or less what runs through my head nearly every time I hear someone say that Bayonetta "is confident in" or "owns" her sexuality.

Unfortunately, most of the time I see it, my only reaction is David Silverman's response to Bill O'Reily.



So thanks.
I think you're both missing the point of fictional characters for one. And secondly that this exaggeration of unreal ideals is intentional to push the point that she's FICTIONAL!

It's not meant to be an accurate representation of women. Which funnily enough I didn't think Nikki Minaj was either, well maybe in her own head. But that speaks more to her circumstances then it does to women as a whole.

So why the rage?

Also, male gaze again? You're really going to rely on that weak construct? It's a sexual gaze. Stop gendering it...
 

Something Amyss

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Deadcyde said:
I think you're both missing the point of fictional characters for one. And secondly that this exaggeration of unreal ideals is intentional to push the point that she's FICTIONAL!
Yeah, well, maybe they should do something to actually demonstrate that she OOWNS HER SEXUALITY or is a FEMINIST STATEMENT.

It's not meant to be an accurate representation of women.
I think you're issing the point of both the poster I quoted and the post you quoted. People are trying to wrap this steaming pile of spank bait up in an emopowerment bow and tell us that it's empowering, liberating, and positive.

This is a response to that, not a response to the notion that she specifically doesn't look well-proportioned. Nikki Minaj comes up because the same arguments are being made.

So why the rage?
You tell me. You seem to have been so offended you didn't stop to understand the posts you were criticising before you stepped in to white knight for Bayonetta.

Also, male gaze again? You're really going to rely on that weak construct? It's a sexual gaze. Stop gendering it...
Well, I'm not going to address someone else's points, so....
 

Kwak

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Zachary Amaranth said:
People are trying to wrap this steaming pile of spank bait up in an emopowerment bow and tell us that it's empowering, liberating, and positive.
You seem quite down on spank bait. Spank bait has feelings too.
Can't spank bait be empowering, liberating and positive?
(ignoring the question of whether or not this particular spank bait is all that).
 

Deadcyde

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Deadcyde said:
I think you're both missing the point of fictional characters for one. And secondly that this exaggeration of unreal ideals is intentional to push the point that she's FICTIONAL!
Yeah, well, maybe they should do something to actually demonstrate that she OOWNS HER SEXUALITY or is a FEMINIST STATEMENT.

It's not meant to be an accurate representation of women.
I think you're issing the point of both the poster I quoted and the post you quoted. People are trying to wrap this steaming pile of spank bait up in an emopowerment bow and tell us that it's empowering, liberating, and positive.

This is a response to that, not a response to the notion that she specifically doesn't look well-proportioned. Nikki Minaj comes up because the same arguments are being made.

So why the rage?
You tell me. You seem to have been so offended you didn't stop to understand the posts you were criticising before you stepped in to white knight for Bayonetta.

Also, male gaze again? You're really going to rely on that weak construct? It's a sexual gaze. Stop gendering it...
Well, I'm not going to address someone else's points, so....
You mean people are trying to argue on some ridiculous level that these critics imposed on the first place. Fictional character remember.

White knight for bayonetta? Hardly. More like remind people that this is a game and to stop getting retard strong about it. But nice attack there.

Not going to defend someone else's point yet you're happy to agree with the sentiment even though it's absolutely flawed? Sure, why not.
 
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I feel like people who say that Bayonetta is some how a sexist game, are possibly sex-worker exclusionary. For example; Jim makes some great points - Bayonetta has agency, she dresses how SHE wants to dress. She shows off her body because SHE wants to, yet at the same time is a fully fleshed out character that can pick how she desires to appear and what she does. People who say a woman is not allowed to appear sexy at all, to the appeal of men, as though she somehow is incapable of making that choice and having the autonomy to do so. Are sex-worker exclusionary feminists. And I find that to be distasteful. It is distasteful to say a woman who chooses to flaunt her body for men, and even for money is somehow lacking control over herself, or is somehow 'making the wrong choice', you know what empowers woman? Letting them MAKE their OWN choices about THEIR body, without JUDGING them for it. We do not deserve to be ashamed for wanting to appear alluring, and men to not deserve to feel ashamed for enjoying it. Bayonetta, is clearly an independent and incredible woman, who can dress however SHE wants. That's the point; empowering woman's sexuality is done through our freedom to express ourselves without shame and people telling us we're wrong to do so.
 

Something Amyss

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Kwak said:
You seem quite down on spank bait. Spank bait has feelings too.
To the contrary, I'm in favour of spank bait. I just don't like people rationalising it as something it's not. There's nothing wrong with porn, but it's disingenuous when you try and dress it up as something else.

Cue people telling me I called Bayonetta porn in 3...2...

I forgot where I was. Okay, next caller!

Deadcyde said:
Not going to defend someone else's point yet you're happy to agree with the sentiment even though it's absolutely flawed? Sure, why not.
I'm not sure what you think lying about my position will do, but okay.
 

Something Amyss

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linear-relationships said:
I feel like people who say that Bayonetta is some how a sexist game, are possibly sex-worker exclusionary.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sex-positive. I'm pro-sex, pro-porn, pro-prostitution, pro-self determination.

I also don't think any of that applies to Bayonetta because she's a fictional character and not a person with motives and feelings independent of Platinum games. Of course, there's power dynamics in the real world, too. It's one thing if someone wants to become a sex worker. It'd be another if they did so because they had no choice, which is often the case in the real world. While you may think Jim's points are good, I think she comes off as the way a horny twelve year old boy thinks a sexy woman would look and behave. She looks and dresses the way she does because these were largely points that the creator/writer insisted upon.

I'm not sure "turning on teenage boys" is the character's first thought, though, were we to assume she was a real person, and yet, so many of her actions seem to be based around the pleasure of the viewer, rather than her own intents.

How do we rectify what would seemingly be out-of-character behaviour with a woman who "owns" her sexuality?
 

Deadcyde

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Zachary Amaranth said:
linear-relationships said:
I feel like people who say that Bayonetta is some how a sexist game, are possibly sex-worker exclusionary.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sex-positive. I'm pro-sex, pro-porn, pro-prostitution, pro-self determination.

I also don't think any of that applies to Bayonetta because she's a fictional character and not a person with motives and feelings independent of Platinum games. Of course, there's power dynamics in the real world, too. It's one thing if someone wants to become a sex worker. It'd be another if they did so because they had no choice, which is often the case in the real world. While you may think Jim's points are good, I think she comes off as the way a horny twelve year old boy thinks a sexy woman would look and behave. She looks and dresses the way she does because these were largely points that the creator/writer insisted upon.

I'm not sure "turning on teenage boys" is the character's first thought, though, were we to assume she was a real person, and yet, so many of her actions seem to be based around the pleasure of the viewer, rather than her own intents.

How do we rectify what would seemingly be out-of-character behaviour with a woman who "owns" her sexuality?
I feel like i should ask why that matters if she's a fictional character.
 

Something Amyss

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Deadcyde said:
I feel like i should ask why that matters if she's a fictional character.
Why does it matter so much to you if she's a fictional character?

Somehow, you've made a bigger deal about this than me, to the point that you're POSTING IN CAPS and misattributing things to me.

So why does it matter?