Jimquisition: Stupid Sexy Bayonetta

[Tony2077]

i wonder when nudity(no sex) and fully clothed humping made the jump to porn status

 

[Erttheking]

"I think Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Gets across that it's opinion, won't cause any issue from me.
"Bayonetta is sexist because it has gratuitous ass and crotch shots" <- Immediately earns my ire, expressing opinion as fact.

Also, the first 50 seconds of that video was the most condescending assery I've experienced in a long time. People were dicks to you on twitter, that's awful. Don't take it out on your audience.

Hey, uh, member of Jim's audience here. I KNEW he wasn't talking about me. Kindly don't claim that I'm being attacked when I know for a fact I'm not. People really need to stop freaking the Hell out and assume everything is directed at them. Did you ever perform the "I don't condone harassment but-" action? If not, he wasn't talking about you and you can relax.

OT: When you get down to it, this is really just the same old people getting pissy because a game they were looking forward towards got a bad review with a new coat of paint. People just want to shut up opposing views.

 

[klaynexas3]

It seems you misunderstood the nature of the site
From what I hear its not actually porn site. I believe its official stance is that its a site solely used to allow people to show off tattoos in a similar manner to the said moments of fanservice in the game (Somewhat like a peepshow I have been told)
As for the whole keeping video games and porn separate angel you and a few others seem to be pushing... I find that adorable~ The subject that has been crossed long long ago~ In fact without the union of video games and porn, we wouldn't have JRPGs or even our modern day video game story telling methods
It would take me an age and a half to explain, so I advise you look into it yourself, as its a very interesting subject

Even so, he still has the right to be uncomfortable with that happening outside of the context of maybe the website. What he likes in one context he doesn't have to enjoy in another, that's what I'm arguing. Whether it's porn or just some lewd photos, just because he likes it on a website, doesn't mean he has to enjoy it in a game.

And when did I say to keep porn and games separate? I simply said that it might be his personal choice to want the two to be separate, and it's not a hypocritical thing to desire. And it's not like he was saying censor games like it either, he's simply not wanting to play them, so it's not even saying that all games have to be separate from porn, he just doesn't particularly enjoy that aspect in it and will avoid it if he can. I can handle a little fan service, a little nudity, hell, I can handle a majority of things that could be imagined being put into a game, but I know that not everyone feels the same, and so I can understand if someone doesn't like it. All I'm arguing is that it isn't fair to give the reviewer so much shit for not enjoying a part of a game that he might enjoy in other contexts. It's throwing a temper tantrum is what it is.

And I know that a fair amount of JRPG developers started out creating eroge visual novels. I know this because I partake in said visual novels. And so one could argue that this form of story telling got translated into JRPGs which is where you wanted to go if you wanted to play a game with a good story back in the old days, so yeah, it is arguable that porn started major story telling in video games. That doesn't take an age and a half to explain, that's just small connections and a tid bit of history.

 

[Don Incognito]

-snip-

If you have to read into what someone wrote, or claim that is what someone is implying, then the answer is NO, he did NOT say "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers."

 

[Erttheking]

I cant be the only one thinking that lowering game score for something that is quite obvious and subjective is stupid.

Quite stupid.

Oh you mean subjective like whether the game is bad or good? Because that's kind subjective. And it's what reviews are talking about.

 

[Erttheking]

And please demonstrate where the reviewer says "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers," even leaving aside the accusation regarding comment deletion.

That's more or less the entire bottom line in a nutshell

When Platinum Games is on, it's really, really on, and Bayonetta 2 is in almost any respect that counts a better game than the first, whose mechanics were already exemplary. But every time I'd feel on a roll, enjoying my time with Bayonetta 2 immensely, I'd be broken out of it by another cheap shot of T&A. I would be wrecking a flock of angelic or demonic enemies, sliding in and out of witch time almost at will, and then the special weapon I had picked up became a literal stripper pole for Bayonetta to dance on, because ... well, because, I guess.

I won't guess why the blatant over-sexualization is still there, often more intensely than before. But it causes an otherwise great game to require a much bigger mental compromise to enjoy.

He says that the sexy shots and poses are detrimental to the game's flow and immersion. Not just saying "to me the sexy shots and poses felt uncomfortable and/or unnecessary", but he says that they are. And of course that factored into the score when he later says that it means the game requires a "mental compromise" to properly enjoy.

That's another thing: Not explicitly stated that everyone should have a problem with Bayonetta as a character, but implied through suggesting that there's something wrong with you if you can just readily get into such an oversexualized experience without needing to sit down and go "oh my god there's sex on my tv screen, and the female lead is actually having fun. Let's try not to enjoy this as much as we should despite this being a good game because that'll make us feel better".

EDIT: As for reviews being subjective. Sure. Of course they are. When they are personal reviews. A review for an official online magazine that covers a lot of games and is meant to inform a potential customer before said customer makes their purchase should try to be more professional.

I mean, some of the very subjective reviews published here on the Escapist have gotten more than their fair share of shit thrown at them, and that's because we expect more from a source like that.

From what I can see, you basically want the devloper in a review to stop frequently and say "But that's just my opinion."

Can you think of any other major reviewer that does this on a regularly basis? When Jim said that the Witcher 2's combat was bad did he say "But that's just my opinion." I don't recall doing so. When everyone said Skyrim was just a great game did they say "But that's just my opinion?" When people said that Destiny had frustrating elements to it did they say "but that's just my opinion?" No, they didn't. When people said the story of Hotline Miami was good did they say "But that's just my opinion?" No. And most importantly, the people who praised Bayonetta as a character, did they say "That's just my opinion?" Every single one of them? I doubt it. Reviewers rarely do this. All reviews don't stop and say that it's just opinion because, well, it's a review. It should be obvious it's opinion. You're basically criticizing him for doing what all reviewers do.

And no there isn't any implication that there's something wrong with you, because the man just has a different opinion, that's all. You shouldn't feel threatened by that.

 

[daspooch77]

It seems you misunderstood the nature of the site
From what I hear its not actually porn site. I believe its official stance is that its a site solely used to allow people to show off tattoos in a similar manner to the said moments of fanservice in the game (Somewhat like a peepshow I have been told)
As for the whole keeping video games and porn separate angel you and a few others seem to be pushing... I find that adorable~ The subject that has been crossed long long ago~ In fact without the union of video games and porn, we wouldn't have JRPGs or even our modern day video game story telling methods
It would take me an age and a half to explain, so I advise you look into it yourself, as its a very interesting subject

Uh, no. It's YOU that has misunderstood the nature of the site. Hardly a surprise, since you're going on "from what I heard", as opposed to looking into the matter yourself.

The site he is a 10 year member of is SuicideGirls. It's not a tattoo show-off site or a "peepshow" site. It is women doing nude photo shoots, in very sexualized situations, and many photo shoots involve 2 girls in "softcore" sexual encounters. There is no misunderstanding the point of SG, lol.

So yeah, there is a point to be made about the review's author being a decade-long member of a porn site, while at the same time docking points from the game from a self-righteous "anti-sexualization" standpoint.

 

[Sheen Lantern]

I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

Feminist Frequency producer Jonathan McIntosh says it pretty well, I think:

https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521798927163482112
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522065989890879488
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522101671447388160

So yeah, when the - shall we say - ''intensely devoted'' Bayonetta fans come out of the woodwork to defend her honor and agency I basically react like this:

Fictional Characters[/youtube]

That being said, I didn't particularly like the first Bayonetta (nor do I care for PlatinumGames' output in general) and am apathetic towards Bayonetta as a character, so take it as you will.

You said it better than I ever could. Bravo good sir.

 

[BoredRolePlayer]

SNIP

Quite right but I do disagree with you. Bayonetta is a sexy character most likely written by a man, but that doesn't cheapen her representation, she is displayed and written as a strong woman, enjoying herself and her life as much possible and using her power to achieve her goals in a way she finds appealing. She is, as much as I hate these terms "Sex Positive" (I don't hate what it means, I just hate that they call it "sex positive" because when done right, sex is always positive).

And whilst yes, her personality and actions are restricted by the writer/player relationship, the way it's presented is key, one could argue that her sexuality is overt and over the top it transcends "sexy" into camp absurdism, Bayonetta is to video games, what the sexually charged and motivated Rocky Horror Picture Show is to movies, the sexiness, sexualisation and erotically charged characters of both, were indeed written by men. But given the lack of Janet Weiss' agency in the story, other than engaging in sexually dramatic moments and later being literally brainwashed with sex and sexuality, wouldn't that be just as troubling a story? Assuming of course you read it that way.

Art is always about interpretation beyond the surface and both views are just as viable.

So come at me with your well reasoned opinion bro/sis. Let's discuss this further.

I guess I would ask, and forgive me if this details the conversation, but why are the writers Bayonetta given such a pass? I mean Bayonettas sexuality, her sucking and humping of things, theyre almost irrelevant to my larger thought really. It's not WHAT she does, it's why no one looks at the men behind the curtain.
For example, when Mass Effect 3s ending pissed everyone off, the rage was directed at the writers. How could they write this?! No one stepped up and said the Reapers have agency and Shepard made his/her choice so deal with it.
When Lara Croft was almost raped, everyone was disgusted someone wrote that in a game. No one just shrugged and said the bad guy was just confident in his sexuality. He has agency and choose this life.
When the new assassin creed demo had no women, everyone called it terrible and non inclusive. No one said well it was the women's choice to not be assassins. They decided to not be in the demo and we should respect that choice.
Dead or Alive extreme beach volleyball? Absolutely terrible! sexist! Disgusting. No one steps forward and says it's their choice to dress up in skimpy bikinis and bounce around in slowmo. No one respects Helena or Kasumi for their confidence in their bodies. Nope, they're sex doll.
But Bayonetta strips naked and grinds her enemies to death with her crotch? GOSH! what strong female characterization. How respectable. How progressive and confident she is!
No one bats an eye that writers made her this way. No one asks why she strips, it's just part of who she is, forgetting who she is isn't up to her.
I would go so far to say Dead or Alive Volleyball is a progressive game compared to Bayonetta. Yes DoA is trash, but it's not trying to hide it's naughty bits behind artsy filters or smoke monsters DoA isn't trying to pretend it's here for anything but cheese shots and doesn't throw in boss fights as part of a needless delaying tactic between strip shows. It's honest that this is fap material, pure and simple. where as Bayonetta has to pretend it's erotica, i guess so as not to piss off family friendly Nintendo or the moms who bought Wiis for their toddlers.

1)Tomb Raider from what I remembered about the trailer was implied with no context, and in the game he killed her.
2)Assassin's Creed was screamed about cause A)They were saying it's to much work for them, B)They already had made a female assassin so they were called for bullshitting people
3)Dead or Alive Volleyball is a volleyball game where you have to unlock all the skimpy shit. Look up Egorapter's video, it was a OLD cartoon he did where the punch line was to get the sexist outfit was to play the game. So it is hiding everything.
4)I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention the "wholesome" twins from Duke Nukem forever since all they did was blow Duke and exploded later on.

Your examples are MILES better then crap we have had in the past like "Beat'em and Eat'em" and "Custer's Revenge".

 

[Gladion]

I guess I would ask, and forgive me if this details the conversation, but why are the writers Bayonetta given such a pass? I mean Bayonettas sexuality, her sucking and humping of things, theyre almost irrelevant to my larger thought really. It's not WHAT she does, it's why no one looks at the men behind the curtain.

I think the reason why people talk about Bayonetta as a character is that she is actually a character worth talking about, whereas (for example) the women in Dead or Alive are exclusively objectivied and sexualized character models.
From what I got from the first game, Bayonetta, on the other hand, is actually likable. She has things to say, she cares about other people, she jokes and gets angry at times. All of that without losing control of any situation she's been thrown in or having to be rescued. Most importantly, there is no male character she is trying to impress.
And that is what (many) people like about her. They actually don't see the need to attack the writers/developers, but they find the decisions they made agreeable. On the other hand, you have Jiggle Physics: The Game, and almost everybody already thinks that that is stupid. There doesn't have to be a discussion whether what this game series does is disrespectful towards women. There is no need for a discussion, we can go straight to letting developers know that this shit is not cool.

So yeah, in essence: Unlike most other examples you named, Bayonetta is not a lazy character who falls into the typical bad tropes of pop culture and some people like that. Others see issues. Debate ensues between the two parties, but what is for sure is that she was not written in this sexy manner solely with the intent of driving sales.

PS: In what world does Bayonetta (the game) try to 'hide' its sexuality? Have you actually played the game? If so, how can you say that the boss fights were needless?

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

I take exception to the "I denounce death threats and harassment however..." because that however could be: "I'm about to make a brew and a butty so can we discuss this more in 5 minutes." IS an acceptable clause to add... man the number of brews I've been denied because an internet argument has suddenly engaged me and I've gotten involved... and then I get angry because I've not had my cup of tea and I'm upset... we should end this white washing of tea harassment by the coffee drinking beverage-archy with their coffee already brewed in percolators.

Dam the internet for being filled with you useless TeaJWs, Coffee is clearly the superior hot beverage, you are just trying to get attention and rushing to the defense of beverages that never asked for your help! There is no such thing as a beverage-archy, it is a silly mith perpetuated by tea drinking bleeding hearts. We will not give in to your tea drinking socialist agenda, us proud coffee drinkers will continue to publicly drink as much coffee as we like and you will just need to tolerate it. Hot beverages are an art and we can consume whatever type we like. There is simply not a large enough market for your type of tea drinkers in this country, you faux-brit tea drinking freedom hater!

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

And no there isn't any implication that there's something wrong with you, because the man just has a different opinion, that's all. You shouldn't feel threatened by that.

I was just saying that's how it could very well be received, and from discussions i've seen where the Polygon review has been mentioned that seems to have been the general interpretation. Either that or people have just joked about how immature or unsure someone has to be of their own sexuality to feel uncomfortable or disgusted by the sexual elements of the game. In any case there's always some who will argue that the intention of a message isn't as important as its interpretation and that a good message misunderstood as a bad one can be highly detrimental to that message as a result. Whether you agree with that or not? Well i imagine that's not something that needs to be discussed here.

And to be perfectly honest i don't care what reviewers have said. As i stated in my original post; it's a character action game from Platinum. I'll buy it, play it, enjoy it, and i couldn't care less what other people think (EDIT: About the ethics of it).

As for review formats: I don't feel like derailing this, and also i have a feeling my opinion won't do much to sway anyone else's opinion. That's kinda the thing about internet opinions. Nobody ever fucking changes their opinion.

 

[MoltenSilver]

I have to vehemently disagree with the opening about the 'I don't condone death threats, however-'. While yes 'I'm not racist but-' and the above are often used as a way to to try for a person to justify not examining their own thoughts and beliefs, at the same time receiving death threats does not turn someone into a saint or an infallible genius, much less render any and every form of criticism irrelevant. And I can't believe I'm actually having to explicitly type out 'just because I criticize someone's work and beliefs doesn't mean I think death threats are acceptable against them; I absolutely believe death threats are always wrong'. I should keep this in mind if I ever craft a work of creativity; I just need to make sure I have someone who hates me enough to write a death threat and suddenly I can be right about anything I want.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

Feminist Frequency producer Jonathan McIntosh says it pretty well, I think:

https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521798927163482112
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522065989890879488
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522101671447388160

So yeah, when the - shall we say - ''intensely devoted'' Bayonetta fans come out of the woodwork to defend her honor and agency I basically react like this:

Fictional Characters[/youtube]

That being said, I didn't particularly like the first Bayonetta (nor do I care for PlatinumGames' output in general) and am apathetic towards Bayonetta as a character, so take it as you will.

Johnathan McIntosh is a freaking lunatic who has made the claim that games are inherently Patriarchal because you control the characters, and control is what the patriarchy wants. You'll excuse me if I write off whatever he has to say.

Might as well expect me to take voting advice from Ann Coulter.

 

[m19]

"It's ok to dislike Bayonetta"

Absolutely.

"It's ok to recognize these issues as potential concern. Admit they are a 'problem'"

No.

 

[rbstewart7263]

There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.

And this is why you need to support your claim with evidence.

Kindly demonstrate where someone said "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

Well you could just look at the Polygon review for one example

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u

For opinions presented as facts, personal issues on the level of the reviewer detracting from the score, etc. Whether or not Polygon's been deleting disagreeing comments i couldn't say 'cause there's no way to confirm that without talking to people whose comments have been deleted.

OT: Well it's a character action game from Platinum. Of course i'm gonna buy it. Whether it's Raiden jumping around and doing ridiculous poses or Bayonetta the game's gonna be amazing.

EDIT: Jumping around doing ridiculous poses in high heels.

Again: it is a review. Reviews, by their very nature, and subjective editorials. If you don't like one particular subjective editorial, read a different one.

And please demonstrate where the reviewer says "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers," even leaving aside the accusation regarding comment deletion.

According to a neutrl feminist from r/kia and r/girlgamers gg'ers are like 50 50 on this. I dont really give a shit if they have issue with her sexuality thats fine. So long as they dont start blackballing people who dont tow there line thats all I care about.

I rolled my eyes throughout this whole video it was literally 6 minutes of jim telling people. "this is ok and so is this. Stop getting mad at us on twitter" lmao

 

[Thanatos2k]

There is a difference between saying "I have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character" and "Everyone should have personal problems with Bayonetta as a character, I'm docking the score to show this to you and to punish the developers, and if you think otherwise I'm deleting your comments."

And this is why game journalism needs to be reformed.

If I find a reviewer obnoxious, I just don't use his reviews as source of information when picking my games. There must be a gazillion different voices out there when it comes to game reviews.

Unfortunately that reviewer you ignore submits his score to metacritic, making or breaking the careers of game developers.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

Feminist Frequency producer Jonathan McIntosh says it pretty well, I think:

https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521798927163482112
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522065989890879488
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/522101671447388160

So yeah, when the - shall we say - ''intensely devoted'' Bayonetta fans come out of the woodwork to defend her honor and agency I basically react like this:

Fictional Characters[/youtube]

That being said, I didn't particularly like the first Bayonetta (nor do I care for PlatinumGames' output in general) and am apathetic towards Bayonetta as a character, so take it as you will.

Johnathan McIntosh is a freaking lunatic who has made the claim that games are inherently Patriarchal because you control the characters, and control is what the patriarchy wants. You'll excuse me if I write off whatever he has to say.

Might as well expect me to take voting advice from Ann Coulter.

But then they will also say "This character has no agency within the story so she is sexist" as well as "shes not real she cant have no agency" Keep changing the goalposts jon your clickbait check in the mail will be there on tuesday.

 

[Shjade]

I've never understood the ''Bayonetta has agencry over her sexiness!'' argument. At the end of the day Bayonetta is still a fictional character, thought of and created to be that way.

It's...complicated.

On the one hand, yes, obviously, fictional character designed with specific goals in mind. This is going to be true for every sexy character ever made: someone had a goal of "he/she/it should be sexy" and proceeded toward that goal. That's a given.

With that in mind, she could have easily been a character completely oblivious to her overtly sexual appearance and behavior, as if she had no idea what she was doing could even be construed as provocative, making her 100% an objectified sexual fantasy of the creator for the audience, going through the motions with all the fetishized additions there "just because."

With a character like Bayonetta, the character is STILL 100% a sexual fantasy of the creator for the audience (or at least is supposed to be) because it's an inherent quality of the character: she KNOWS how her appearance and actions come across and likes it. Does that mean suddenly nothing she's doing is indecent/sexist/whatever? No, of course not, how the character feels about herself doesn't really change the meta discussion about the content of the game, but it's leaps ahead of the brainless dress-up doll of a character who isn't even written to be self-aware.

 

[blackrave]

Bayonetta is a tricky character for me
I've never could pinpoint do I like her or not
So I'd say I sit on a fence here

Spoiler: I was hoping to hear about Jim Sterling's thoughts on Hatred....

Spoiler: Looks like Postal without humor or social commentary.

Although game may be different from trailer.
On the other hand games are good way to walk in someone's shoes.
This particular game sets you in shoes of angsty sociopath.
I think feeling uncomfortable is perfectly fine.