Jimquisition: The 100% Objective Review

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Exley97_v1legacy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Exley97 said:
I gotta be honest, this sounds a lot like GamerGate's absurd "Gamer's Bill of Rights," which basically posits that only fans of the type of game being reviewed should be able to review the title in question. Or, more accurately, from #1 on the Bill: "If the act of reviewing a game causes you to write a page and a half decrying its content, maybe that game isn?t for you. Please consider passing that review off to a member of your team who might be better suited to evaluate the content, whose views may be closer to the intended audience of the game."

http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php/Gamer_Bill_of_Rights

So basically, don't review a game unless you're going to assume the perspective of other people (fans) and toe the party line.

Objective. Ethical. Games journalism.
*twitch*

Did they...Did someone seriously just try and call THAT a "bill of rights?"

I have to go lie down. I...i think I'm done.
Yeah, I needed a stiff drink after reading that. And I didn't even quote the best (worst) part:

"5. We will continue to stand up for Freedom of Expression, Artistic Vision and a free market to decide what it wants. We suggest fans of Gone Home review Gone Home ?and fans of God of War Review God of War. It is in this moment that professionalism engages, and a journalist demonstrates whether they are worthy of our trust."

So they stand for freedom of expression and free market principles....as long as someone likes Gone Home doesn't review a *real* game like God of War III. A reviewer is only worthy of the gamer's trust if they recognize that only fans of a game should be reviewing that game, and all other critics can go pound sand. Yay !

And the language...oh it's PRICELESS: "It is in this moment that professionalism engages..."

I honestly can't tell if they've been reading (plagiarizing?) too much literary crticism or not enough.
 

hydrolythe

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Zachary Amaranth said:
hydrolythe said:
Actually, video games based on Greece kind of suffer from lots of unfortunate implications, especially misogyny.
When did I say it didn't?
I only used this statement to point out that by not letting the time being portrayed accurately you can end up with lots of unfortunate implications, even more so than by doing research on the subject.
 

MrFalconfly

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Not The Bees said:
MrFalconfly said:
I can understand that. And sorry you felt overwhelmed. I know how that can be. Hope it wasn't too much for you, and that you can feel better later and come back. For what it's worth, I had no idea that English wasn't your first language, as you seemed to grasp it just fine.
Thanks, it was nice discussing this with you, and you brought some new things up I hadn't considered (especially now that I've had some time to go through the posts again with a calm head).

Happy travels, and have a good day.

GloatingSwine said:
MrFalconfly said:
I just think that a reviewer shouldn't deduct from a review score because the game depicts events that actually happened, because we know today that they were wrong.
They shouldn't necessarily do so, but they should consider how the game depicts those things and why the writers chose to include them.

And sometimes the answer to that is going to mean that the product deserves a lower score (perhaps because it was lazy or exploitative and "teh historical" is not a defence against that accusation)

I though we left all that misogyny bollocks behind in the 1960s
One of the great challenges in every fight for equality, whether race, gender, gender identity, or whatever, is convincing the beneficiaries of inequality that the round of concessions grudgingly eked out by the last generation didn't actually solve the problem because the inequality still exists.
Fair enough. I agree with you, "teh historical" isn't a catch-all defence, and I apologize if I in any way have insinuated that it may have been.

As for the fight for equality. I guess the international platform doesn't help it either. Different countries are on different levels when it comes to gender-equality issues. I'm just lucky that I live in Denmark, where the latest gender-issue apparently is whether it's just as easy for men to get jobs as a kindergarden helper as it is for women (seems equal salary, equal rights, equal access to jobs in the military, and equal whatever is already done. I mean the proportion of women in the parliament is 39.1% or 70 out of the 179 seats, which is fairly good, if I may say so. Granted it's not 50/50 but it's better than the 20% in the US Senate, or the 18.6% in the House of Representatives, or the 19.1% in the US Congress).

I can't categorically say whether Denmark is more gender-equal than the US, but looking at the statistics, at least it seems like it. And for that, I think I'm lucky. Yeah sure I'm a caucasian "cis-male" (whatever that's supposed to mean) guy, but I really feel lucky to live in a society that at least tries to make all citizens equal.

I hope I didn't piss you off too much. I can be a bit stubborn.

I hope you have a nice day, and that wherever you may go you have fun.
 

Netrigan

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Exley97 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Exley97 said:
I gotta be honest, this sounds a lot like GamerGate's absurd "Gamer's Bill of Rights," which basically posits that only fans of the type of game being reviewed should be able to review the title in question. Or, more accurately, from #1 on the Bill: "If the act of reviewing a game causes you to write a page and a half decrying its content, maybe that game isn?t for you. Please consider passing that review off to a member of your team who might be better suited to evaluate the content, whose views may be closer to the intended audience of the game."

http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php/Gamer_Bill_of_Rights

So basically, don't review a game unless you're going to assume the perspective of other people (fans) and toe the party line.

Objective. Ethical. Games journalism.
*twitch*

Did they...Did someone seriously just try and call THAT a "bill of rights?"

I have to go lie down. I...i think I'm done.
Yeah, I needed a stiff drink after reading that. And I didn't even quote the best (worst) part:

"5. We will continue to stand up for Freedom of Expression, Artistic Vision and a free market to decide what it wants. We suggest fans of Gone Home review Gone Home ?and fans of God of War Review God of War. It is in this moment that professionalism engages, and a journalist demonstrates whether they are worthy of our trust."

So they stand for freedom of expression and free market principles....as long as someone likes Gone Home doesn't review a *real* game like God of War III. A reviewer is only worthy of the gamer's trust if they recognize that only fans of a game should be reviewing that game, and all other critics can go pound sand. Yay !

And the language...oh it's PRICELESS: "It is in this moment that professionalism engages..."

I honestly can't tell if they've been reading (plagiarizing?) too much literary crticism or not enough.
I'm not sure how to read that other than "Everyone Is Winner!!!" It's a system skewed toward positive reviews.

There's really not a lot of reviews written by people who are completely out of their element. Back when Susan Arendt was here, she usually got the Lego type games, because she enjoyed them. If you got a sports gamer, he does the sports games. Maybe it's fun to get the theater critic to review a KISS concert every now and then, but mostly they line up a reviewer with a game kind of in his wheel house (although there seems to be no wheel house for most movie tie-in games, the stuff most fobbed off on the new guy because no one wants to play them... ever).

And if they're not liking the game... you should hand it off to someone who might? I know we hired you to give your honest opinion, but if your honest opinion is negative, then would you kindly keep it to yourself if at all possible. Yes, I know you were a big GTA fan years ago, but you appear to have grown out of it and not liking GTA V is simply not an option... because of journalistic ethics. We have to protect consumers from your honest opinion of games, so they'll buy stuff they maybe won't like and keep devs in business... because journalistic ethics. Journalistic ethics are very important to us, so it's vitally important that you stick to these opinions, because other opinions violate journalistic ethics... because journalistic ethics.

By saying journalistic ethics so many times, I have proven that I care deeply about journalistic ethics, even if I clearly have no idea how they work... because journalistic ethics. I care about journalistic ethics. You do not say journalistic ethics nearly as often as I do, therefore you obviously care less about journalistic ethics... because journalistic ethics.

In summary, journalistic ethics.
 

Shaitan051

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4:00
Ohhhhh that's what this is about. I didn't think you were a part of the problem, I didn't even consider the possibility . . .


. . . until this. Shouldn't you have put this out back on August 28th with the rest?

I'll admit this is a new tactic though.
 

Exley97_v1legacy

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Maybe they finally realized how absurd that "Bill of Rights" sounded because the file the page has been delete, with the following note: "This was one person's blog which should probably never have been made into an article."

http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php/Gamer_Bill_of_Rights
 

baconmaster

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All I want from a review is to know why you think it is good or bad. And if a reviewer thinks his/her political opinion on a game that mildly offends him/her carries more weight than gameplay, I simply won't read that person's reviews. I don't understand what's so hard about that for some people. There's a reason I mainly get professional reviews from 3 sources. Because I know they can give me accurate predictions of what I might like. There's plenty of reviews out there. I'm sure there's some that discuss what you want to know.
 

runic knight

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Well, been arguing it in the other thread, might as well post the general idea here.

A review is something for the audience, in particular, the consumer seeking information about the product in hopes of being informed about if they want to buy it or not. If that interest wasn't there and if that motivation wasn't there, reviews wouldn't exist at all (then it would just be artistic critique).

Now because a review's purpose and intent it based on the consumer, they shouldn't end up as platforms for personal politics. This is because not everyone shares those politics and as such attempting to make the review about those politics does a disservice to everyone who doesn't share them. It is taking what should be something for the audience and instead making it about the reviewer. Or to put it another way, it is someone who's task and duty it is to give relevant information to the audience instead using the opportunity to take advantage of the people who came to listen for that in order to soapbox. Imagine asking your friend about if a car is worth buying and they start ranting about foreign versus domestic car politics and you have a general feel for why many people dislike that crap.

Now, because of this, people often say they want more objective reviews. After all, if it is objective, you don't have to put up with that trojan horse political preaching crap from the people you expect actual product reviews from (as you already know you can go to blogs and professional critique for that where that is the actual purpose of those places.) The problem is that isn't quite the right word. Yes, a review should certainly seek to be objective where it can. There are ways to help that, such as comparison between similar products in order to establish benchmarks that people may find relevant ("The graphics look better then the previous game", "The controls are tighter and more responsive then that other game"), as while even if still a subjective opinion, it is applying that opinion in a more controlled and relevant to the audience way. They also tend to review with mention to core components that define a game or that are critical for a game (graphics, story, game mechanics, controls, sound, etc). While, yet again, these are subjective opinions, they are done in a more controlled way so as to inform the public about the product rather than use the platform as a soapbox. Hell, one can even mention aspects of the game that are political or controversial just fine as that is useful inform for the audience to know when making a purchase and having mentions like "you probably wont like this game if you dislike gore" is relevant to customers same as "you probably wont like this game if you dislike grinding".

The problem is that while people say "objective" most tend to mean "unbiased". Many people want a more unbiased review (seeing objectivity as a means to obtain it) and don't want to listen to a personal political ideological purity test applied to the product. But I suppose trying to argue against unbiased reviews would be very silly. Or might result in the exact same reply, who knows.
 

CaitSeith

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Exley97 said:
Yeah, I needed a stiff drink after reading that. And I didn't even quote the best (worst) part:

"5. We will continue to stand up for Freedom of Expression, Artistic Vision and a free market to decide what it wants. We suggest fans of Gone Home review Gone Home ?and fans of God of War Review God of War. It is in this moment that professionalism engages, and a journalist demonstrates whether they are worthy of our trust."

So they stand for freedom of expression and free market principles....as long as someone likes Gone Home doesn't review a *real* game like God of War III. A reviewer is only worthy of the gamer's trust if they recognize that only fans of a game should be reviewing that game, and all other critics can go pound sand. Yay !

And the language...oh it's PRICELESS: "It is in this moment that professionalism engages..."

I honestly can't tell if they've been reading (plagiarizing?) too much literary crticism or not enough.
"...and a journalist demonstrates whether they are worthy of our trust."

Yes, journalist, it's time for you to prove our trust. *aims a gun to the journalist* We trust you can dance...
 

TheMysteriousGX

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runic knight said:
The problem is that while people say "objective" most tend to mean "unbiased". Many people want a more unbiased review (seeing objectivity as a means to obtain it) and don't want to listen to a personal political ideological purity test applied to the product. But I suppose trying to argue against unbiased reviews would be very silly. Or might result in the exact same reply, who knows.
Honestly, yeah. You're going to get the same arguments against "unbiased" reviews as you are "objective" ones, for the same reason. Everybody has bias, every piece of media is political, etc, etc.

That's the rub. People don't want "unbiased" reviews, they want reviews that share their biases. And that's not a bad thing. Bias is impossible to eliminate. Find reviewers that work for you and, more importantly, ignore reviewers that don't. I'm not gonna go to Yahtzee for a JRPG or fighting game review, and telling him to change or trying to get him fired would be daft.
 

EternallyBored

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runic knight said:
The problem is that while people say "objective" most tend to mean "unbiased". Many people want a more unbiased review (seeing objectivity as a means to obtain it) and don't want to listen to a personal political ideological purity test applied to the product. But I suppose trying to argue against unbiased reviews would be very silly. Or might result in the exact same reply, who knows.
Pretty much the exact same reply, because asking for unbiased reviews in the same way people are asking for objective reviews is still the same thing. I don't want unbiased reviewers, I want reviewers that share my biases so I know that our opinions on games, movies, books, etc., are more likely to align and give me an accurate impression on whether I will like that particular piece of media or not. I also want reviewers who don't share my biases so I can know what other viewpoints are out there, and whether or not they actively engage or challenge my own view points. If a reviewer is biased in a way that doesn't interest me, then I am ok with not consuming that reviewers content.

I want as many diverse viewpoints as I can get, I don't care if the whole review is just the author deconstructing the story from an objectivist view point and ignores gameplay and graphics entirely, that's not what I want out of a review, and I likely would never read such a review, but I want it to exist. You can call a reviewer shitty, or even criticize their methods and reasoning, but I take issue when people come along and insist that displaying these biases is somehow a breach in ethical behavior, and that such biases should be forcibly eliminated from the medium through boycotts or organized consumer pressure, that is not what I want to see from the industry.
 

Netrigan

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altnameJag said:
runic knight said:
The problem is that while people say "objective" most tend to mean "unbiased". Many people want a more unbiased review (seeing objectivity as a means to obtain it) and don't want to listen to a personal political ideological purity test applied to the product. But I suppose trying to argue against unbiased reviews would be very silly. Or might result in the exact same reply, who knows.
Honestly, yeah. You're going to get the same arguments against "unbiased" reviews as you are "objective" ones, for the same reason. Everybody has bias, every piece of media is political, etc, etc.

That's the rub. People don't want "unbiased" reviews, they want reviews that share their biases. And that's not a bad thing. Bias is impossible to eliminate. Find reviewers that work for you and, more importantly, ignore reviewers that don't. I'm not gonna go to Yahtzee for a JRPG or fighting game review, and telling him to change or trying to get him fired would be daft.
Had said Bayonetta reviewer gong on like that about what a wonderful portrayal it was, about how they properly integrated her sexuality into the character, giving her agency and whatnot... I'm sure not a word of protest would have been raised.

Because confirming bias is almost never noticed.

The whole "if you don't like this, why are you reviewing it" thing really only comes up when it's something said person likes. Such as, when Roger Ebert gave a bad review to Thor, many of my comic chums were up in arms, because Roger Ebert clearly doesn't like super-hero films, so why is he reviewing a super-hero film (note: he mentioned several super-hero films he loved in said Thor review); but the same people had no problem with him reviewing the latest Transformers film despite absolutely hating them all, because they wanted Transformers to get those negative reviews.

With gaming, the length of time it takes to play the game means there are far fewer reviews coming from a reviewer. Ebert could knock out several reviews in a week, but game critics would have trouble doing more than two. So instead of unleashing your reviewers on just about everything, reviews are much more targeted... and you get fewer opinions for each game.

With a movie franchise, you'll have the critic who is a fan of the series, you'll have the critic who hates the series, you'll have the critic who never experienced the series, you'll have the critic who usually does art house reviews, you'll have someone's grand-mother... all of them giving opinions about the same movie and getting a wide mix of responses.

Halo: The Master Chief Collection... so far it seems only massive Halo fanboys have chimed in on it. Great if you're a massive Halo fanboy and want to know if this is a game for you (answer: it is), but not so great if you're not part of this very narrow demographic.

And there are far too many people who think this is how it should be. Who cares about those customers not being served by game reviews, the hardcore Halo fan has all the information they need to make an informed choice about rebuying all of these games.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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I want a critic to be able to get in my skin and tell me whether i personally will love or hate the game and for what reasons.

I do not want to be a vehicle for critic's self-gratification, but i understand if the critic lacks empathy and imagination and is only able to even approach accomplishing the above task by talking about himself. However, when i see a critic talking mostly about himself, i inevitably have to conclude that this specific critic lacks empathy and imagination and maybe i should look for someone else for my game criticism needs.

For those critics that want to actually try delivering a solid criticism that will earn them respect and attention of multitudes - a protip: you start with what the game actually objectively has in it and work up from there.
 

Netrigan

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Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said:
I want a critic to be able to get in my skin and tell me whether i personally will love or hate the game and for what reasons.
I too want critics who can read my mind. We really are dragging ass on acquiring mutant powers.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Netrigan said:
I too want critics who can read my mind. We really are dragging ass on acquiring mutant powers.
I know
And some of them come so close, too :(

I mean, both Sterling and Total Biscuit both occasionally take the words right out of mouth
It is really uncanny

<3 their work for that
 

Netrigan

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Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said:
Netrigan said:
I too want critics who can read my mind. We really are dragging ass on acquiring mutant powers.
I know
And some of them come so close, too :(

I mean, both Sterling and Total Biscuit both occasionally take the words right out of mouth
It is really uncanny

<3 their work for that
Jim Sterling loves Borderlands. Total Biscuit hates it.

Only one way to solve this. Deathmatch. Two men enter, one man leaves. Winner is named Perfect Pasta Sauce.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Netrigan said:
Jim Sterling loves Borderlands. Total Biscuit hates it.

Only one way to solve this. Deathmatch. Two men enter, one man leaves. Winner is named Perfect Pasta Sauce.
Alternatively, i simply give the win to Biscuit on this one :)
Sterling gets me every time on anything related to Dynasty Warriors tho
 

Netrigan

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Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said:
Netrigan said:
Jim Sterling loves Borderlands. Total Biscuit hates it.

Only one way to solve this. Deathmatch. Two men enter, one man leaves. Winner is named Perfect Pasta Sauce.
Alternatively, i simply give the win to Biscuit on this one :)
Sterling gets me every time on anything related to Dynasty Warriors tho
One day, when you least expect it, Tiny Tina will hit you with her dildo laser for that. Then she will force you to eat Oatmeal Raisin cookied which you thought were chocolate chip.