Treblaine said:
This will hurt the industry when it finds itself subject to the censors.
If making such a tiny amount more money in the short term from a minority of egotistical sexists... if that is all that matters above artistic integrity then that so devalues video games as expressive form of art that they are liable to lose the protection they have end up restricted like hardcore pornography. Don't think it could happen? Look at Germany's censorship laws on video games.
And don't exaggerate that they will become starving artists, we are talking about the smallest effect on maximum sales by pandering to a small proportion of a majority who egotistically refuse to have anything other than a straight white male in the lead role. And you don't see the result of such staleness can have in the long term.
Trying to make games just for the money and you end up where EA is!
You seem to assert that there needs to be an egotistical sexist, but I don't think it's that complicated. If the Return On Investment isn't there, the game doesn't get made. It doesn't even matter if the "tiny amount" means they end up in the black, if the publisher is trying to gain market share and maximize profits, they don't want niche projects that break even, they want blockbusters that earn big bucks. Whether that's right or not isn't what we're discussing here, but greed is the root of the problem, not sexism.
Video games are not viewed as an expressive form of art by the majority of people who write laws, report the news, and go out and vote. One cannot blame them when the industry is doing its best to exploit base desires and pander to the lowest common denominators. The solution to both issues? Education.
Treblaine said:
The problem is you seem to ignorantly assume that a female lead - alone - will, regardless of all else, so cripple a game's possibility of success that it will bankrupt everyone involved.
You seriously think that Bioshock Infinite would have tanked like Duke Nukem if it had a "Becky DeWitt" as the lead role rather than a dude?!?
The statement "only Sith deal in absolutes" is itself an absolute, so it can't be true if it was spoken by a Jedi that never deals with absolutes. If it's true, it invalidates the very point it was trying to make. It's a nice sentiment, but it falls apart under any real scrutiny.
I guess the other side of the coin is that you assume that a female lead - alone - will, regardless of all else, so benefit a game's possibility of success that it will profit everyone involved?
There's certainly a difference between a "good" and a "bad" character. Is gender parity alone the goal? Would it be sufficient to say that so long as we had equal numbers of "good" and "bad" male and female characters, at least they're equally represented?
Treblaine said:
No. At best they are failed hedge-fund fiddlers, who mostly know nothing about creating games and are only in it to make money. They don't know the risks as they have no idea what they are dealing with.
Everyone is in it to make money. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, or dangerously naive.
Treblaine said:
How about people stop claiming to speak for everyone else.
So far as I can tell, I am the only person who appealed to changing the sexual appetites of male gamers, back in my post on page 10. I am also probably the only person who has been attempting to parallel the failed evangelism of faiths and the failing evangelism of sexism in gaming in hopes that they don't make the same mistakes. On all accounts, I am standing by myself in a unique position that doesn't appear to be supported by anyone else in the thread. Pray tell who is the "everyone else" that I would be speaking for?
Treblaine said:
There are no grounds to say that a female lead alone will destroy a game's chance at success.
See if a game with a macho male protagonist fails, it's for any reason other than his gender.
But if a series with a female protagonist after years of success fails, then suddenly it's the fault of the lead role being a women. This does not make sense.
As has already been stated, is this a straw man? I do not understand where I made the argument that the situation you've described is supposed to make sense.
Treblaine said:
Games don't need female roles for a minority of female gamers, they deserve female roles for all gamers.
Please explain how someone deserves something they don't want.
Treblaine said:
This isn't about ideologies, this is because female characters could and would make good leads for games, including action games.
Is the call for more female protagonists, good female protagonists, or more good female protagonists?
Treblaine said:
Depiction of women has not gone the way of the buggywhip, how incredibly out of touch are you!?!?!
You don't seem to have understood the analogy, so I'll put it differently. Companies like EA are the horse whip manufacturers. They've been in business for a (realtive to the industry) long time, and they see new technologies coming along to replace them as a threat, not something to adapt to. In almost every instance where you have an established manufacturing entity, they are extremely resistant to change. Even their new ideas seem like barely more than a new coat of paint on the old ideas. If they don't adapt and change, however, they will eventually die out, because the market to support them has fallen through. This is often because, whether a product really is superior or not, if the tastes of the consumers change, then so does the market.
Indie developers are in a place to meet the needs of female gamers, but in order for them to get support the consumers (male and female gamers) have to be willing to change their tastes and what they are expecting. This doesn't mean they need to expect a worse game, but that they are going to get a different experience than they may be used to. If they don't want that experience, it's not beneficial to call them names and browbeat them, you have to instead educate as to why that point-of-view is relevant. That is why I believe that it's the consumers changing that will lead to a lasting improvement of the industry, because if the consumers are better educated they are better able to then respond to support their hobby when questioned by "outsiders".
This means that some folks are going to have to boycott big publishers, even if they're making games they like, and educate both their neighbors and congresscritters that the consumers of video games are mature enough to keep self-regulating.
That's the biggest insult to injury of all, you see? They aren't just trying to regulate video games because of their content, but because the market has shown that gamer will cave to and revel in the exploitation. They see the problem as not being able to be solved internal to the game industry because none of us are championing maturity in what we're supporting. They see us being unable to help ourselves, so they want to introduce laws and censorship because they don't think we have the maturity to make those decisions. They see us dithering about, contemplating chicken-egg, instead of taking the mature route and just owning our role and making the change in ourselves.
So that is why I would push for education. That is why I blame the consumer. That is why I see banging the gongs of sexism missing the point, because the industry as a whole has bigger problems than gender parity. We're on the brink of losing control of the very medium we love so dearly, and while sexism is certainly a part of it, I believe the solution requires more personal involvement than folks seem willing to commit to.