Jimquisition: The Poison of Pre-Order Culture
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
I stopped pre-ordering after Rome 2. The thing that burns most is that you can now buy the pre-order exclusive DLC. After a week struggling with it I went back to the original.
I get the hate from gamestop but lets give them a little credit here with helping games get published/brought over.
They are the reason you can actually purchase a physical copy of one piece romance dawn, ultimate for the vita, Hakuoki for the ps3, and a lot of other titles that would never had made a physical printing.
And for someone like me that a big part of "Owning" a game is having a box and a cart or disc on my shelf, I have an alright game I own instead of a game I'd never play cause screw 40-60 bucks on an digital release ;p
and ya they are a bit of a reason why if you want a copy of Xenoblade chronicles or metriod prime trilogy, they aren't 120-150 bucks on ebay when you can walk into any store and pick it up for 40 bucks.
They've humbled up lately since their days of pricing MVC2 for 90 bucks used ;p
They are the reason you can actually purchase a physical copy of one piece romance dawn, ultimate for the vita, Hakuoki for the ps3, and a lot of other titles that would never had made a physical printing.
And for someone like me that a big part of "Owning" a game is having a box and a cart or disc on my shelf, I have an alright game I own instead of a game I'd never play cause screw 40-60 bucks on an digital release ;p
and ya they are a bit of a reason why if you want a copy of Xenoblade chronicles or metriod prime trilogy, they aren't 120-150 bucks on ebay when you can walk into any store and pick it up for 40 bucks.
They've humbled up lately since their days of pricing MVC2 for 90 bucks used ;p
Huh.The White Hunter said:
Here in the states we don't have a price jump. Most Used Nintendo games just stay pretty close to the original price because nobody really trades them in, and the ones that are have high value.
The niche ones tend to be the ones with the highest prices. My goodness the prices for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky on Amazon is something to behold. People apparently want to keep this game with them to the grave.
It's definitely more profound in the niche titles. Finding things like Fire Emblem Awakening for less than £40 can sometimes be a chore, though that may be a poor example. Some of the kirby stuff does the same thing.Dragonbums said:
It's more like I can pre-order it for £30-£35 then after it's £40+. Very strange.
I'll pre-order if the price is very good, I was very likely to buy it anyway, and they don't take my cash until they ship.
(last happened 3 years ago)
Though most Bioware companions have always been fairly meaningless to the overall plot. If anything this has reduced. I mean, BG2 had 16 companions so of course they didn't matter
(last happened 3 years ago)
I'll note that they're not having any DLC companions in DA:I. In part I think because of the complaints - though also they've got more time.Elyxard said:
Though most Bioware companions have always been fairly meaningless to the overall plot. If anything this has reduced. I mean, BG2 had 16 companions so of course they didn't matter
My problem with pre-orders is that it just rewards the company for something completely irrelevant to how good the game is...
...
...
MARKETING
A game that is well marketed gets more preorders, that's a fact.
Wether it's because it's part of a franchise or just has a lot of advert-space, it all contributes to this hype thing that has no bearing on how good a game is.
Think about it: a good developer should thrive because it makes good games, not because their publisher has thrown a lot of money into ad-space (although that can certainly be part of it). The fact we're seeing another Alien game this side of the decade is probably because of how well Colonial Marines did despite it's world-wide panning.
Giving developers money for a game yet unproven is like giving your dog a treat for licking it's balls.
...
...
MARKETING
A game that is well marketed gets more preorders, that's a fact.
Wether it's because it's part of a franchise or just has a lot of advert-space, it all contributes to this hype thing that has no bearing on how good a game is.
Think about it: a good developer should thrive because it makes good games, not because their publisher has thrown a lot of money into ad-space (although that can certainly be part of it). The fact we're seeing another Alien game this side of the decade is probably because of how well Colonial Marines did despite it's world-wide panning.
Giving developers money for a game yet unproven is like giving your dog a treat for licking it's balls.
I agree there are a lot examples of scummy pre order scams around nowadays, I wouldn't counter argue any of the points in Jim's video.
What I would say however is that the whole argument is somewhat muddied by the fact that there isn't anybody who doesn't have a stake in it, there is no impartiality. Publishers say pre-orders are great and get your money, pundits/critics/reviewers/lets players say they are bad and then they rake in the extra CPM from people who then have to go to them to get the shimmy on the game they didn't pre-order.
Additionally they gain status with regards to the publishers who then must bend to them rather than the likes of Gamestop. Then we find ourselves in a situation where that relationship may spiral into an increase in the "8/10 and above" review/forgiving critiques we are already seeing a lot of so content producers can get games earlier/receive kickbacks.
Maybe I have an unhealthy mistrust but all I see are two sides arguing for causes that benefit themselves as well as any tangible/perceived benefit they think they/are providing to the consumer.
The publishers are worse in my opinion as at least you don't give the pundits money for their thoughts but if the balance of power shifts too far the other way if for the sake of argument people stopped pre-ordering and did their due diligence before buying who knows.
I suppose at this point I just think that so many people connected to the games industry will screw you over for their own short term benefit/profit.
What I would say however is that the whole argument is somewhat muddied by the fact that there isn't anybody who doesn't have a stake in it, there is no impartiality. Publishers say pre-orders are great and get your money, pundits/critics/reviewers/lets players say they are bad and then they rake in the extra CPM from people who then have to go to them to get the shimmy on the game they didn't pre-order.
Additionally they gain status with regards to the publishers who then must bend to them rather than the likes of Gamestop. Then we find ourselves in a situation where that relationship may spiral into an increase in the "8/10 and above" review/forgiving critiques we are already seeing a lot of so content producers can get games earlier/receive kickbacks.
Maybe I have an unhealthy mistrust but all I see are two sides arguing for causes that benefit themselves as well as any tangible/perceived benefit they think they/are providing to the consumer.
The publishers are worse in my opinion as at least you don't give the pundits money for their thoughts but if the balance of power shifts too far the other way if for the sake of argument people stopped pre-ordering and did their due diligence before buying who knows.
I suppose at this point I just think that so many people connected to the games industry will screw you over for their own short term benefit/profit.
I 100% agree with "fuck gamestop"
as for pre-orders, it use to make sense to me when pre-ordering helped secure your copy at your local store when there was a chance it would be sold out upon release. Nowadays there isn't much chance you can miss out on a game when it gets released unless its a "limited edition" or something similar. Plus there are now more stores that carry video games or you could just order online from a multitude of vendors.
there are many more reasons that pre-ordering has become worthless. The ridiculousness that it has become is number #1.
as for pre-orders, it use to make sense to me when pre-ordering helped secure your copy at your local store when there was a chance it would be sold out upon release. Nowadays there isn't much chance you can miss out on a game when it gets released unless its a "limited edition" or something similar. Plus there are now more stores that carry video games or you could just order online from a multitude of vendors.
there are many more reasons that pre-ordering has become worthless. The ridiculousness that it has become is number #1.
Completely offtopic, Jim's hair looks really nice, and is he losing weight?
Ontopic just stop buying games from corporate publishers. You know the "game of the year" edition will come out a little later including all of the content that should have been part of the original game. There are a ton of good indie games worth your time and money more than marketing driven corporate crap.
That said I've preordered exactly twice. Once was the XCOM remake and that was exactly 1 day before release and only after playing the very extensive demo.
And also I pre-ordered Borderlands 2 because I loved the first one so much that Gearbox earned my trust and I wasn't disappointed in the slightest, in fact my expectations were exceeded. My only complaint was the gore/death sequences was turned down because of stupid EU/Australia censorship which is a really minor grumble.
And I'm going to pre order the Pre-Sequel because of that level of trust.
Ontopic just stop buying games from corporate publishers. You know the "game of the year" edition will come out a little later including all of the content that should have been part of the original game. There are a ton of good indie games worth your time and money more than marketing driven corporate crap.
That said I've preordered exactly twice. Once was the XCOM remake and that was exactly 1 day before release and only after playing the very extensive demo.
And also I pre-ordered Borderlands 2 because I loved the first one so much that Gearbox earned my trust and I wasn't disappointed in the slightest, in fact my expectations were exceeded. My only complaint was the gore/death sequences was turned down because of stupid EU/Australia censorship which is a really minor grumble.
And I'm going to pre order the Pre-Sequel because of that level of trust.
Let me explain.TKretts3 said:
One.
Pre-orders are completely unnecessary. The tactic was created to ensure gamers who really wanted a game on Day 1 could reserve a hard copy for themselves to avoid the possibility of low supply. It also helped game stores know how many copies to get a hold of before it went on sale. Downloading games legally is a fast, convenient way to get them these days, even on consoles. There's no reason to hold a copy of a game if it's just software data you download.
Two.
The mentality and tactics behind pre-ordering have gone from securing a hard copy of the game to pushing gamers to purchase a game without having any idea what they're really getting. You are effectively gambling your money on the chance that the game won't be absolute shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines, a game I remind you the publishers lied to your face about to get you to pre-order it.
Three.
That hunger for Day One sales, which game companies seem to hold with such reverence, has turned them towards some very underhanded methods. I refer you to the above point about lying to your face about a game, but it doesn't stop at tricking you into buying dog turds wrapped in gold foil. Publishers are now picking games apart and deciding which pieces you're allowed to have, and which you have to pay for later, rather than simply creating a solid game, and then creating more content to sell. On-disk DLC's, additional content that should be included with the game but isn't just so the publishers can wring a few extra dollars out of you and force you into a position where you either have to pay up front or you won't get the game you want.
Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs looked great, but the final product was little more than a sight-seeing tour with none of the fear-based elements that made its predecessor an Indie masterpiece. Bioshock Infinite was trying to sell you season passes for its DLC content, and it only released three!
I know a lot of people must have heard it in this thread, but it needs to be said again. Don't pre-order this game. Seriously. I'm not telling this because of the preorder bonuses crap, or anything like it, but because of the Company and Developer history.
Sega is making some really crappy choices lately and have been shooting themselves in the foor with those choices, it's the reason they're not that relevant anymore, but when you pair them with CA, thing can get pretty bad, just look at Rome 2 - TW.
It's CA's flagship series, with some amazing games, like the first Rome - TW, Napoleon, Medieval I and II, and also Shogun 2, and that last one is a miracle, since Sega was the publisher there. But Rome 2? That was an unpolished mess, i got lucky and was able to run it day one, but a lot of people just didn't, some graphical problems persist to this day, after 14 patches. And the gameplay is really bad compared to the first Rome and to Medieval 2, the campaign gameplay is bare bones and lack substance and the battle gameplay is really bad, with atrocious AI.
The thing is...When they advertised the game, it looked like it was the best Total War game ever. That's why i'm saying to be cautious here, i really regret buying Rome 2, that was the game that made my mind against pre-ordering anything.
Sega is making some really crappy choices lately and have been shooting themselves in the foor with those choices, it's the reason they're not that relevant anymore, but when you pair them with CA, thing can get pretty bad, just look at Rome 2 - TW.
It's CA's flagship series, with some amazing games, like the first Rome - TW, Napoleon, Medieval I and II, and also Shogun 2, and that last one is a miracle, since Sega was the publisher there. But Rome 2? That was an unpolished mess, i got lucky and was able to run it day one, but a lot of people just didn't, some graphical problems persist to this day, after 14 patches. And the gameplay is really bad compared to the first Rome and to Medieval 2, the campaign gameplay is bare bones and lack substance and the battle gameplay is really bad, with atrocious AI.
The thing is...When they advertised the game, it looked like it was the best Total War game ever. That's why i'm saying to be cautious here, i really regret buying Rome 2, that was the game that made my mind against pre-ordering anything.
First, digital-only doesn't stop preorder bonuses and it never will, check Steam if you need reassurance of that. Secondly, what do you mean? None of this video is contradicted by those arguments you say we all made.ender1986 said:
And the always online thing has far more implications than your willing to admit. If anything goes wrong with your internet or their server you're fucked. That's more barriers to being able to play your game for no benefit. And on top of that there is NO reason to have to play singleplayer or multiplayer online always. So you just want options taken away from you like offline LAN and splitscreen? Yeah, well not all of us do.
The always online thing is nothing more than a needless restriction. If I said you had to dribble a basketball while watching tv, otherwise you can't watch tv then you would probably tell me to shove it. You would argue the two aren't related, there is no reason for me to dribble a basketball to watch tv. Yeah well the same problem here, there is no reason to REQUIRE online for any form of gameplay (singleplayer, LAN, splitscreen, etc.) other than ACTUAL ONLINE MULTIPLAYER. And even then, it could just connect to the server AT THAT TIME and stay connected ONLY WHILE PLAYING ONLINE with others. Also by the way, Mercenaries 2 is impossible to play multiplayer in any form because it has those same restrictions (ie servers are down). Goldeneye on the other hand will always for all eternity have access to all game features. That's the way it should be if you buy a product.
You brought up NIS/Atlus as good games to pre-order, and other rarities... I would also offer that games that I *want* to support, games that I *demand* be recognized should be pre-ordered (just like movies that I like I *want* to add to the box-office numbers, even though I fucking *hate* the theater). Re-releases are the best example of this (FFX/2HD, and Tactics Ogre (PSP) come to mind, the latter also rewarding that loyalty with a neat deck of Greater Arcana), but SSB4 giving me the "for fun/for glory" bit puts that on my pre-order list as well (Granted, I can't see them DLCing themselves into getting fucked with SSB, one of their big series, so I'm not too worried that I'm supporting shit practices).
Squaresoft isn't a terrible example of it *working*, either. Look at how Squeenix reacted to Bravely Default and FFX selling and being pre-ordered in the quantity they were, going to far as to issue an apology and, while it remains to be seen (I'm just hopeful, and screw it, there's little enough to be hopeful about otherwise), possibly changing their focus as a business.
So there are three ways I can enjoy a game... I pre-order it if I support its ideas, its company, or similar. Also, usually the pre-order gives me something (though this is becoming drastically less common). According to my pre-order history, the last three games I pre-ordered were FFX, Dragon's Crown, and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together, so grain of salt (I'm sure that's not all of it, that's just my card). I can buy it at retail, usually if it's a game I'm tenuous of, and it gets good reviews (Deus Ex: Human Revolution, offhand). Or I can wait for a used, borrowed, etc. copy if it's that I want to experience it, and then I'll usually snag something else by them, new, if it's good (Which is how I got into NIS/Atlus, with Disgaea for six bucks years ago).
People need to be discerning when they buy games, in order to improve the industry, and most people don't take gaming seriously enough to do so. Just like MovieBob noted about Bay: You can't really blame him for selling to the least-common-denominator if that's who's actively buying the shit. We just need companies committed to decent games, and to support them as much as we can. It's a little hard to sort one pile of shit from another (N seems to be about the only candidate for that I can offer without addendum), but this is why I think people should know their gaming histories.
There are fanboys and pedigrees to consider, and kickstarter stands on the other end of this chain (I shamelessly backed Unsung Story/Mighty No. 9, so I'm *willing* to pre-order a game before it's even made, but in this case it's made by people who have a creation history where I've loved every game they made...). There's capability for abuse and bullshit, but, on the other hand, it's not all negative as a concept, it's just heavily abused by fucktards, and too many people let themselves be abused instead of being better *customers*.
EA, Ubi, SEGA (excluding a couple of their teams, perhaps) have solid histories of bullshit, and yeah, probably shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt... Squeenix I'm on the fence about, but they seem like they finally get it... N? Them I'll toss money at hand-over-fist... Re-releases of awesome games? Games with feelies as pre-order bonuses? Yeah, yeah I can do that.
Squaresoft isn't a terrible example of it *working*, either. Look at how Squeenix reacted to Bravely Default and FFX selling and being pre-ordered in the quantity they were, going to far as to issue an apology and, while it remains to be seen (I'm just hopeful, and screw it, there's little enough to be hopeful about otherwise), possibly changing their focus as a business.
So there are three ways I can enjoy a game... I pre-order it if I support its ideas, its company, or similar. Also, usually the pre-order gives me something (though this is becoming drastically less common). According to my pre-order history, the last three games I pre-ordered were FFX, Dragon's Crown, and Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together, so grain of salt (I'm sure that's not all of it, that's just my card). I can buy it at retail, usually if it's a game I'm tenuous of, and it gets good reviews (Deus Ex: Human Revolution, offhand). Or I can wait for a used, borrowed, etc. copy if it's that I want to experience it, and then I'll usually snag something else by them, new, if it's good (Which is how I got into NIS/Atlus, with Disgaea for six bucks years ago).
People need to be discerning when they buy games, in order to improve the industry, and most people don't take gaming seriously enough to do so. Just like MovieBob noted about Bay: You can't really blame him for selling to the least-common-denominator if that's who's actively buying the shit. We just need companies committed to decent games, and to support them as much as we can. It's a little hard to sort one pile of shit from another (N seems to be about the only candidate for that I can offer without addendum), but this is why I think people should know their gaming histories.
There are fanboys and pedigrees to consider, and kickstarter stands on the other end of this chain (I shamelessly backed Unsung Story/Mighty No. 9, so I'm *willing* to pre-order a game before it's even made, but in this case it's made by people who have a creation history where I've loved every game they made...). There's capability for abuse and bullshit, but, on the other hand, it's not all negative as a concept, it's just heavily abused by fucktards, and too many people let themselves be abused instead of being better *customers*.
EA, Ubi, SEGA (excluding a couple of their teams, perhaps) have solid histories of bullshit, and yeah, probably shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt... Squeenix I'm on the fence about, but they seem like they finally get it... N? Them I'll toss money at hand-over-fist... Re-releases of awesome games? Games with feelies as pre-order bonuses? Yeah, yeah I can do that.
Isn't preordering basically crowdfunding? And haven't we as a society decided that crowdfunding is a good thing? Beyond the scale of the publisher, what's really the difference between backing Wasteland 2 at the $100 level for all sorts of goodies, and pre-ordering a AAA title for all sorts of goodies?
I'm going to hate on Gamestop here a bit too. They're crooks I tell ya.
I went into one a few weeks ago on a whim to see if they had any old used DS games I missed that I want to play.
I saw FF4. Decided that yeah, I wanted it for about 20 bucks.
Went to pay for it, they asked if I had an Edge Card. I said yeah, but it was at home. They said no problem, as long as I was in the system I'd get the discount. So they looked me up and said "oh, it's expired! Here, I'll update that for you. And you'll get a free 10 bucks on your next trade in!". So, seeing no reason to disagree, I said sure.
He does his thing and goes "Ok, that'll be 43 bucks please!". I blinked and said "whoa whoa whoa, hang on. The game is like 19.56. Where's the other 20-ish coming from?". He looked surprised and said "well, it costs 15 bucks to update your old edge card into our new Edge System! What, you didn't know?". When I said no, he pointed me to a poster behind showing the various costs to buy new edge cards and said it was my fault for not seeing it. I told him that if that was the case I didn't want to update it, but he said that the email with my "free" 10 bucks trade in value was already sent, so I was obligated to pay for the upgrade.
So I had to pay it.
I'm planning on sometime this summer finding a few games I have that I don't give a shit about (sonic Chronicles, for example, that game is awful and I regret buying it), trading it in to get a used game I actually want (using up those "free" 10$ of store credit), and then CUTTING UP MY EDGE CARD IN FRONT OF THEM and telling them that I will never shop at a gamestop/EB games again because they are fucking crooks and that the "free" sotre credit on trade ins that they basically blackmailed me with was the only reason they ever saw me again. >: (
I went into one a few weeks ago on a whim to see if they had any old used DS games I missed that I want to play.
I saw FF4. Decided that yeah, I wanted it for about 20 bucks.
Went to pay for it, they asked if I had an Edge Card. I said yeah, but it was at home. They said no problem, as long as I was in the system I'd get the discount. So they looked me up and said "oh, it's expired! Here, I'll update that for you. And you'll get a free 10 bucks on your next trade in!". So, seeing no reason to disagree, I said sure.
He does his thing and goes "Ok, that'll be 43 bucks please!". I blinked and said "whoa whoa whoa, hang on. The game is like 19.56. Where's the other 20-ish coming from?". He looked surprised and said "well, it costs 15 bucks to update your old edge card into our new Edge System! What, you didn't know?". When I said no, he pointed me to a poster behind showing the various costs to buy new edge cards and said it was my fault for not seeing it. I told him that if that was the case I didn't want to update it, but he said that the email with my "free" 10 bucks trade in value was already sent, so I was obligated to pay for the upgrade.
So I had to pay it.
I'm planning on sometime this summer finding a few games I have that I don't give a shit about (sonic Chronicles, for example, that game is awful and I regret buying it), trading it in to get a used game I actually want (using up those "free" 10$ of store credit), and then CUTTING UP MY EDGE CARD IN FRONT OF THEM and telling them that I will never shop at a gamestop/EB games again because they are fucking crooks and that the "free" sotre credit on trade ins that they basically blackmailed me with was the only reason they ever saw me again. >: (