Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[Mr. Omega]

Victim blaming is such a funny word. It's like "rape culture", or "white knighting" in that it seems like a term made up and used souly as a "you disagree with me therefore you are part of the problem and your opinion doesn't count and you should be castrated" short hand.

-snip-

If you go to the Bronx after midnight and get mugged, sorry, but it's your fucking fault for being a naive ignorant putz who expects the world to spin the other way just because you couldn't be bothered to take preventative measures, plain and simple. I like musing about how I wish the world should be just as much as everyone else, but you also need to realize and deal with the fact the world as it is doesn't care about you and you need to learn how to survive in it instead of longing for someone else to come along and make it better for you.

Well, let's review one of the two stories that started this. The story that started this episode was caused because someone put a game they made up on Steam Greenlight (Depression Quest) and then a bunch of angry gamers decided to go and harass her and put out her personal information so that they could harass her further.

So, let's hear your great, sage-like wisdom. What was she supposed to do? NOT put her game on Steam Greenlight? Not do her job? Not try and get the game she was working on distributed? CLEARLY since she OBVIOUSLY bought this on herself, there must have been something she could have done to not get a bunch of angry gamers pissed off that doesn't involve not selling the game.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yeah. See, they want to get a rise out of you, see. And if they don't get one, they'll decide that you're a target and keep trying until they do because you challenge them. They want to get you mad, remember?

Granted, a troll is only human, same as you, and I, but it's not that they can do things we can't, it's what they chose to do.

See, the contradiction arises again. You can't ignore something, yet acknowledge it exists.
Ignoring something means to deny it exists. You can't report something you deny exists.
If you're open to constructive criticism, I'd say more along the lines of "report them, and do not reply to them" or some such. Unfortunately that only works when there's people to make reports to, and even if there are people to make reports to, they might not get as offended as you are, so the troll stands unpunished. With my battlegrounds being in gender issues among gaming, I've seen a lot of abrasive posts that stand.

They work harder, and harder until they're ringing your telephone. It's the thrill of the hunt for some of them. Sure, call the police, but what if the trolls are 12 yearolds? They'll likely just get slapped on the wrist, and the thrill of their lives that they got attention.

Ignoring them just lets them move the lines they have to cross to get to you. When you want gold/silver/what have you, do you stop using your pick just because there's some rock in your way? The rewards are worth it.
think about the scenario of a child calling their parent over, and over, and over again, not because they're hungry, or in danger, they want to make their parent mad. When the parent finally snaps, the reaction is far greater the longer they've been annoyed.
It's the same way with trolls. They're the kid trying to annoy you, the parent, until you snap, and they want you to explode big time.

Don't feed the trolls is a failure because you said it yourself. Haters are going to hate. It doesn't make the trolls go away, it just makes you a bigger challenge, and gets you more attention. You're pretty damned either way unless you luck out, and the only trolls you come up against are not really devoted to trolling.
Statistically it's impossible for everyone to ignore them all on top of that. Sooner or later, a troll will say the right thing to make you mad.
Sooner or later all the people trying to make you mad will become too much. What are you supposed to do? Become a hermit? A person's skin can only get so thick.
Don't feed the trolls sounds great on paper until you're faced with a troll. Especially faced with a smart troll that knows how to skirt the rules, and continually annoy you.

Well, I'm not terribly up to date on the Muslims. Have there been protests against 9/11 from them? Have they showed large scale, or organized outrage against the people that did 9/11?
I'm not saying I blame them all, mind you. I handle people on a case by case basis, frankly.
On that note, when was the last time -gamers- made any sort of organized outrage against the trolls?
Sure it might give the trolls attention, but it'd also show the world that not everyone agrees with them, or are like them. The trolls are winning. People outside looking in think we're all trolls. The trolls are getting attention.

Soccer? When was the last time you protested the hooligans?

Innocent until proven guilty isn't a universal thing. People get hurt by a group, word spreads, the group looks bad. If they rarely, if ever look good, then what the heck are people supposed to think? Humanity is pretty hard wired to think in terms of tribes, grouping people into like people and thinking of people as a group. When that group seems full of assholes, they're a group of assholes until they show otherwise. It's like those alien invasion movies where the aliens see humanity as irredeemable scum until some humans show the aliens that humanity has potential, and aren't all scum. This moral isn't taken for granted. It's not always imprinted upon people. People will get conditioned to see a group of people a certain way. Again, if that certain way is "asshole" then that's the way it is until enough non-assholes show otherwise.

Trollposts should be met with moderation. If that's not possible, then, well, something has to be done. Enough disdain shown towards them until the troll's feelings are hurt enough until they stop might work. We have to show they're not welcome, don't we? Coz until we do, they'll make themselves at home, the way I see it.
People don't have to make time to find these posts, mind you. Just do what needs to be done when you can do it. Is that reasonable?

If you don't give a damn about other people, how can you expect people to give a damn about you? Their problems are problems, and problems are made to be solved. Solutions are easier with many people involved so long as they're on the same page.
But the problem arises again, haters gunna hate. It won't make them all go away either.
Still, it is so terrible to exercise some empathy, and sympathy?
The -real- problem, IMO, is people are afraid to rely on one another, and have to fix their own problems.

the problem with leaving it to the authorities is that people can just make another account. There's no authorities over the internet. Some sites have authorities, but not all of them. Trolls can't be stopped either way. Trolls get banned, they make new accounts, and resume trying to burn the planet for the view.

Real life authorities can't act until certain things happen, and if a troll stays petty enough, real life authority tends not to do a damn thing.
I mean, all these harassing phone calls. Why aren't there followup articles stating these people got put in jail, juvy (likely there, I'd imagine), sued, or otherwise punished? The trolls see the other trolls don't get punished, then copy cat.

Being harsh to the victims? I don't really see that. Being harsh to the victims is trolling them. Especially until they break.
Leaving the victims to their own devices isn't going to help. They're going to reach a breaking point all the faster without support, and frankly I figure that leads to pain, and bloodshed.

So it's a no win situation, isn't it? Haters gunna hate. Still, they're going to make themselves at home until we kick them out, and show them they aren't wanted sufficiently that they go away.

But you cannot do anything else but leaving the victims to their own devices.. in the end NOTHING you do will help them. Infact you adding more drama to the burning pile of tires. The only ones who can take down the fire are the admins and moderators and community managers. Your only contribution has to be and should be to report hatefull behavior.

Do not answer them.

Do not try to debate with them

Do not argue with them

Report them and let the authorities delete their posts/ban them do whatever they see necesary.

That is ALL you should do. EVERYTHING else is aknowledging them, is giving them fuel, is giving them recognition, is giving them what they want.

You say they want to get you mad... and say ignoring them only gets them more invested. But not ignoring them ALSO plays in their hands by giving them EXACTLY what they want.

Never ever engage these haters in conversation. Deal with them quitly and indirectly over the people in charge. Do NOT go into the dragons cave and poke it because you feel wronged... it wont help.

Dealing with trolls is like dealing with childs.. you do not hit the child in the face nor do you discuss endlessly with the little brat. You get his parents involved. If that doesnt help and the brat does something unlawfull you call the proper authorities.. you do not however take action yourselfe to "settle" matters.



As for Jims more or less "guilty by association"

These trollish retards do not play any role in the community i am part of.. i do not associate with people of that kind despite them and me having the same hobby. And thats why i am right to say that these people do not represent me and that i have nothing to do with them.

I see them as borderline criminals who use my hobby as a vice for their hatefull bile all over the place.

They might enjoy their games but that makes them not part of the community i am part of.. because that would mean they actually interact with said community instead of building their own sub communities that revel in their own hatred for everything and everyone.

The best example i can come up with are nazi metal bands.

These people use music to lure in young people to their cause.

Yet no one blames the rest of the music industry and fans of metal music that somehow because they dont actively fight or try to stop these nazi rockbands that somehow they are part of the problem.

When nazi metalheads harass a foreigner are suddenly all metal fans to blame because they dont see it as their problem?

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

 

[Zetatrain]

The comments are going to be interesting.

*Grabs a bag of popcorn*

That kind of behaviour is toxic, but I am not sure as to how one should fight it, the most I do is say "What the fuck?" and tell my friends to shut up when say stupid misginystic/homophobic, etc. shit, but I feel that it would take more than that to convince the "gaming community at large" to stop acting that way.

I'm just not sure how.

Think of it like this, decades ago it was alright to call any person of color derogatory slurs out in public. Eventually people stopped taking that shit by telling those people to fuck off and eventually no one would dare say those words without serious repercussions.

Problem is that much of the gamer community and the shit that happens within it is represented on the internet. Being on the internet means people are pretty much immune to any consequences that would normally result if they did this shit in person. A couple of angry posts in caps or even being banned from a website is a slap on the wrist compared to coming face to face with an angry person and getting slugged in the face.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

The places I've seen "don't feed the trolls" work is mostly places with an older demographic, comprised of people who are highly knowledgeable about the internet, and have been using it since the USENET days. This is not the way the internet is heading, as most users today are naive and uninformed. This is why places like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. are so popular.

So, I don't think there's much that can be done. There doesn't seem to be any way that experienced users will be able to have much influence on these matters, due to the massive influx of people who don't know how to deal with this stuff.

Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again...

They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

These ideas seem creepily close together. No matter how badly someone behaves, "emotionally destroying" anybody is a terrible thing that shouldn't even be contemplated by reasonable people.

And I'd say the fact that internet users getting younger, and younger, and less mature means "don't feed the trolls" is, at least, ineffective advice because few youngsters will take it. The whole thing about not relying on other people drilled into a lot of people's heads makes it really hard for them to report posts, too. Pride demands they handle the situation themselves.

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases. They don't get it back at them, though. that said, what stops them? Eventually growing some empathy?
You think banning stops them? You haven't seen someone banned in a thread then a new account practically takes up where they left off. I've seen it in the Escapist.
Trolls get more pleasure than pain out of it, challenging themselves to make people mad, and generally be assholes. If that were to change, they might not want to keep at trolling.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases.

I tend to disagree. I think the people who take up trolling as a pastime are probably those who have already been emotionally or physically wounded. I may be wrong, but I suspect it's often the case of the bullied becoming a bully.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.

I can't agree with this, because I don't think anybody is seriously cutting off their food supply. Take this episode of The Jimquisition s a prime example - it's practically fertilizing the bullies with high-grade compost. There's nothing more that trolls love to see their name up in lights. And while The Escapist may not be CNN or Fox News, it's still pretty visible site, and for the trolls, Jim mentioning them on this episode is like all their Christmases coming at once.

The trolls are not starving here any more than I am likely to collapse from lack of turkey tomorrow. Happy Festivus!

 

[Karadalis]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

So basically you suggest we should engage in borderline criminal behavior because they do it too?

"Destroying them emotionally"

Do you know what you are suggesting here?

Do you know what it means to emotionaly destroy someone?

Those are some very extreme words youre using here.

Calmly defusing them sounds much better wich i think i have been suggesting. Letting people whos job it is to deal with this stuff to.. well.. deal with this stuff is much preferable to call for a gamer crusade against internet harassment.

Because unlike such calls for demonstration in real live... on the internet they can just be ignored like these "like this if you are against animal cruelty" BS on facebook.

Or internet pettitions of any kind...

The problem here is anonymity. Aslong as that exist nothing your run of the mill person with no influence can do will have any impact. And honestly i would rather not give up my anonymity just so people can post their private info all over the internet and expect it to not have negative side effects.

Taking a "stance" against harrasment might sound impressive on paper... but it has no effect on the people you take a stance against. Protected by being anonymous they have absolutely no reason to fear such actions.. they have no repercusions on them.

I'll admit it was a bit of an extreme wording, but how else will a troll feel anything that might make the troll stop? I mean stop trolling. Period.

The problem with calmly defusing things that you're calmly defusing a troll. Said troll is trying to stop you from being calm, which makes it hard to calmly defuse anything.

Okay, lets put this a different way. You're here coz Jim trolled you in a sense. You're in this conversation because Jim trolled you, too. You were offended, and failed to not post in this thread, likely because it overrode your ability to ignore something. The other people I'm talking to? Same thing, prolly. Jim said something negative that caused people to post.
So it's not so simple as to ignore it, is it?
Jim's not the only person to do this on the Escapist. A lot of badge hunters do similar in posting about something controversial, and never have their threads locked. And this is by no means confined to the Escapist. many other forums with more, or less moderation have people capable of saying something that overrides a person's ability to ignore it.

Lemme ask you, who's job, exactly, is it to defuse the situation Zoe is in? The Steam admins? They obviously failed hard, didn't they? She was harassed into withdrawing her game before, and is being harassed all over again. Where will the harassment end? And it's not purely steam that she gets harassed on.
Is it Zoe, who's responsible? She has no known administrative power on Steam. She has to ignore phonecalls of people masturbating? Ignore considerable amounts of posts? Puhleeze, people can't even ignore a loose association with the people they loathe, never mind direct, actual insults.

So, who's job is it to police the internet?

 

[Karadalis]

If it worked, everyone would do it, and there would be no trolls.

That's a massive assumption, that everybody is interested in getting rid of trolls. The runaway success of Reality TV is a prime example that people want trolls and like the drama they cause.

If people don't do it, then it's too hard to do, so it's not a perfect solution.

Nobody said it was a perfect solution. But it's a hell of a lot better than what most people seem to be doing, which is feeding the trolls. Do you think that giving them the attention they want is the right solution?

Due to the fact trolling still exists, maybe we need another solution? Even if it's just to supplement "don't feed the trolls."

I think trolling mostly still exists not to people not feeding the trolls, but due to the fact that so many people love feeding them.

Okay, let me put it another way. If it worked, the people being trolled that don't want to be trolled would do it, and they'd be left alone as opposed to receive numerous troll posts, and eventually get rung up IRL. A successful troll is really hard to ignore, though, isn't it? They wouldn't be successful otherwise.

I'm not saying giving them they attention they want is the solution, I'm thinking, maybe, give them the attention they don't want. Either emotionally destroy them enough that they don't want to troll coz they'll get hurt again, or do the far opposite, and calmly defuse them. Neither's really easy, unfortunately. A troll's reason to be is to tick you off. If they want you ticked off, they'll sure as heck try.
Then again, this could be where other people can come in, to defend the victim of trolling with attention the troll doesn't want. Together we stand, divided we fall. Unfortunately this is easier said than done, too. Too many people aren't great at relying on other people, or helping other people.

Okay, there's people who don't want the trolls gone, and they feed the trolls willingly. So how do we make the troll feeders do something they don't want to do? Until we can, we can't get rid of trolls, can we?
It's not entirely better to not feed them because if they want to get your attention, they'll keep upping the ante until you go off, or someone else does. They'll keep burdening you with their trolling until they add enough to break your back.

So basically you suggest we should engage in borderline criminal behavior because they do it too?

"Destroying them emotionally"

Do you know what you are suggesting here?

Do you know what it means to emotionaly destroy someone?

Those are some very extreme words youre using here.

Calmly defusing them sounds much better wich i think i have been suggesting. Letting people whos job it is to deal with this stuff to.. well.. deal with this stuff is much preferable to call for a gamer crusade against internet harassment.

Because unlike such calls for demonstration in real live... on the internet they can just be ignored like these "like this if you are against animal cruelty" BS on facebook.

Or internet pettitions of any kind...

The problem here is anonymity. Aslong as that exist nothing your run of the mill person with no influence can do will have any impact. And honestly i would rather not give up my anonymity just so people can post their private info all over the internet and expect it to not have negative side effects.

Taking a "stance" against harrasment might sound impressive on paper... but it has no effect on the people you take a stance against. Protected by being anonymous they have absolutely no reason to fear such actions.. they have no repercusions on them.

I'll admit it was a bit of an extreme wording, but how else will a troll feel anything that might make the troll stop? I mean stop trolling. Period.

The problem with calmly defusing things that you're calmly defusing a troll. Said troll is trying to stop you from being calm, which makes it hard to calmly defuse anything.

Okay, lets put this a different way. You're here coz Jim trolled you in a sense. You're in this conversation because Jim trolled you, too. You were offended, and failed to not post in this thread, likely because it overrode your ability to ignore something. The other people I'm talking to? Same thing, prolly. Jim said something negative that caused people to post.
So it's not so simple as to ignore it, is it?
Jim's not the only person to do this on the Escapist. A lot of badge hunters do similar in posting about something controversial, and never have their threads locked. And this is by no means confined to the Escapist. many other forums with more, or less moderation have people capable of saying something that overrides a person's ability to ignore it.

Lemme ask you, who's job, exactly, is it to defuse the situation Zoe is in? The Steam admins? They obviously failed hard, didn't they? She was harassed into withdrawing her game before, and is being harassed all over again. Where will the harassment end? And it's not purely steam that she gets harassed on.
Is it Zoe, who's responsible? She has no known administrative power on Steam. She has to ignore phonecalls of people masturbating? Ignore considerable amounts of posts? Puhleeze, people can't even ignore a loose association with the people they loathe, never mind direct, actual insults.

So, who's job is it to police the internet?

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment because i find this very important... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

See, the thing trolls don't have is repercussions for being an asshole. They hurt people emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Physically in some unlucky cases.

I tend to disagree. I think the people who take up trolling as a pastime are probably those who have already been emotionally or physically wounded. I may be wrong, but I suspect it's often the case of the bullied becoming a bully.

I'd like to see a better solution. Not feeding them is obviously not working coz they'll do everything to make you feed them sooner or later.

I can't agree with this, because I don't think anybody is seriously cutting off their food supply. Take this episode of The Jimquisition s a prime example - it's practically fertilizing the bullies with high-grade compost. There's nothing more that trolls love to see their name up in lights. And while The Escapist may not be CNN or Fox News, it's still pretty visible site, and for the trolls, Jim mentioning them on this episode is like all their Christmases coming at once.

The trolls are not starving here any more than I am likely to collapse from lack of turkey tomorrow. Happy Festivus!

I won't deny that your hypothesis has merit. I can't pretend to know the motives of everyone on the net.

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

Also, happy non specific solstice activities.

 

[Amir Kondori]

This type of harassment is just one of those things I don't understand in the slightest. What motivates the people making the attacks to do it in the first place? What is so threatening to them that they do this? It makes zero sense.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

 

[Snake40000]

What games where being played in the background?

 

[Karadalis]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

Oh the example i wanted to take out of it is that posting your private info.. any private info is incredible stupid on the net.

And that it allways leads to very very bad stuff no matter the gender.

Also not harassed? It could and most likely would have gone bad very very fast if they hadnt removed the full name emidiantly and the people who had found out all that info had belonged to the more... hatefull demographic of the internet.

He was lucky... nothing more nothing less.

People actually told him where his kids go to school.. polite or not that is incredibly alarming and shows that no matter your gender, posting your info on the net is an invitation to bad things.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

No, I'm not saying that. My problem is the inflammatory way that Jim said it, impugning the gaming community as a whole for this happening. You said yourself in an earlier post that Jim was kind of trolling us. That's behavior I have a problem with, just like I have a problem with the misogynist trolls and abusers. He doesn't seem to be honestly engaging us here.

He could easily report on this without blaming everybody else in the gaming community. This is one of the reasons I almost never play multiplayer games - because there are so many jerkwads out there who are abusive towards others on multiplayer chat. I make efforts to isolate myself from such people, because I've had enough abuse in my life. I miss out on many gaming experiences because I choose to do this. So, it isn't exactly pleasant when it's implied that I'm a jerkwad by association, because some troll did something I had nothing to do with. Or that I should shut up for some reason.

As for the idea that I should ignore Jim on the "don't feed the trolls" principle - I think that Jim is an intelligent guy, and he's not deliberately trying to troll. His videos are often very enjoyable. I don't think he's beyond redemption, which is why I think i's worthwhile addressing him here. I've always been quite supportive of Jim, but this episode is pretty on-the-nose. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his initial forum replies (and later lack of replies) diminish my respect for him.

If he's just going to go into defensive mode, and not learn anything from his critics here, then I think that will be sad for everybody. I'm all for sexual equality and fighting online abuse - I just think he chose a really counter-productive way to go about it. I know that being "edgy" is his schtick, but if he's unable to respond meaningfully to constructive criticism, then I might have to resign as a fan of his show.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

Engage on your terms. Not theirs. Make them regret trolling somehow, or another. Ignoring them just makes them invest in you as they try and make you mad. It's like sticking quarters into a slot machine. The more they try to make you mad, the more they want a payoff.

Coming to people's aid on the internet absolutely works. If you post an idea you like, and someone pops on, and says it's a great idea, do you feel better than if it were ignored or insulted? If your idea leads to a civil conversations, do you not feel better than if it were ignored, or insulted?
If you get into a debate, and someone suddenly takes your side, and helps you get your point across in such a way it can't be refuted, don't you feel good?

What does coming to a person's aid look like? It looks like people taking your side. It doesn't have to be some grand show. It can be as simple as telling the victim that how they're being treated is crap. You don't even have to talk to them anymore afterwards. Heck, you don't even have to say it to them directly. Just show your support in not liking the way they were treated. Kinda bare minimum there, IMO.

So, what the heck do you think the trolls are trying to do to Zoe, here? Extensively harassing her? Basically giving some of the most ominous of warnings against other female developers?
Maybe I worded "emotionally destroy" too strongly. How about hurt their feelings a lot?

Believe me, you have power. It might not be a lot, but being there for someone can mean a lot, you know? Voicing your support can mean something. You might not have the power to fight trolls as much as you like, but you have the power to support the person being trolled to make the situation better.
Of course, if you insulted the hell out of a troll in the name of the victim, maybe in a funny way, the victim might feel better, too.

The community ignoring the problem is exactly what the "don't feed the trolls" crowd seems to be wanting, precisely. Because talking about the problem means giving the trolls what they want. If the problem's not talked about, then it's kinda ignored, isn't it? Silence is what the trolls want, too. All the people that complain every time someone talks about a topic like this? Do you want them to win so the issue is silenced while it still exists?
The problem won't be fixed if we don't try to fix it. The trolls will love that. It means they get to do what ever the hell they want so long as they don't break the rules, or laws, and that can be a lot.

I've voiced my disgust over the matter, haven't I? Pretty sure I have. I'd say it's something to set myself apart from the trolls. It might not be the most powerful move in the universe, but it's something. Did it change anything? Beats me. I added something, though.

 

[Karadalis]

I don't agree with you. Coming to a victim's defense gives them hope. It tells them people care about them. That people are there to support them.

What happens when a person runs out of hope, and doesn't feel like anyone, or enough people cares about them? Especially over long stints of time?

You gotta remember, not every web forum has admins to report to. You gotta remember they may not always help you, even if they exist. Why do you think Youtube's comments section has such a bad rep? That's to say the least. People can offend you without breaking the rules, too.

Sooner or later someone will say something that makes you mad, and drives you to post. It might not be something that breaks the rules, either. They'll force your hand to post something.

What I'm getting at is ignoring them gives them exactly what they want, and not ignoring them gives them exactly what they want.
Ignoring them gives them the thrill of the hunt. They get to hassle you, and hassle you. They think they're going to get rewarded hugely by making you snap.

Giving in to them easily might defuse the situation. They have what they want. They weren't challenged. Their shot at satisfaction is diminished as it wasn't really a challenge.

It's not so much "guilty by association," it's "guilty because you don't do anything against it," IMO. Even a little bit of resistance against the vile hatred could help when it's added up among a dozen other people. And if you fight the hatred, even now and then, then I don't think Jim's talking about you.
That hobby is enough to associate you, unfortunately. You can deny it, and claim there's no ties, but people that aren't you see you as a gamer, same as the troll who happens to be a gamer.

What, exactly, do you do to show the world your views on trolls aside from post it? How are people to recognize the line you've drawn between you, and the trolls? I'm not saying you have to make it clear every second of every day, but I still wouldn't mind an answer.

I think people have, and might still blame Metal, and it's fans for corrupting people. Same as Rock and Roll which was banned in the UK, wasn't it? I'm sure it's been a scapegoat.

"It's not my problem" means you don't care it's happening. That's kind of a problem, isn't it? You let it happen, it happens, the damage is done.
It happens, you don't care, you're not helping gamers look any better, are you? It's not a huge investment to give even the slightest damn, is it? By no means are you obligated to go around finding these incidents, but is it such a problem to occasionally say "This problem sucks! I'm against these people!" but with a bit more words?
Occassional outrage is a good thing because it at the least, can show outsiders that trolls aren't the majority, or at least that there's people that stand against the stereotypes of the gamer troll.

No.. engaging them is giving them what they want. Ignoring them is exactly what makes them loose interest.

Do you actually believe engaging these people is not what they want?

Also comming to a victims aid? That does not work on the internet.

Tell me.. how does this comming to a victims aid look like?

Emotionally destroying people? Like as in.. driving them to suicide? Because that is what emotional destruction leads to.

"Giving a damn" is not going to change ANYTHING especialy if you have no power.

The "community" is not ignoring the problem, it knows it cant change it. The only people who can are the owners of these websites.

What have YOU done to successfully fend of those hatefull people? My guess is either nothing or whatever you did changed absolutely nothing.

Engage on your terms. Not theirs. Make them regret trolling somehow, or another. Ignoring them just makes them invest in you as they try and make you mad. It's like sticking quarters into a slot machine. The more they try to make you mad, the more they want a payoff.

Coming to people's aid on the internet absolutely works. If you post an idea you like, and someone pops on, and says it's a great idea, do you feel better than if it were ignored or insulted? If your idea leads to a civil conversations, do you not feel better than if it were ignored, or insulted?
If you get into a debate, and someone suddenly takes your side, and helps you get your point across in such a way it can't be refuted, don't you feel good?

What does coming to a person's aid look like? It looks like people taking your side. It doesn't have to be some grand show. It can be as simple as telling the victim that how they're being treated is crap. You don't even have to talk to them anymore afterwards. Heck, you don't even have to say it to them directly. Just show your support in not liking the way they were treated. Kinda bare minimum there, IMO.

So, what the heck do you think the trolls are trying to do to Zoe, here? Extensively harassing her? Basically giving some of the most ominous of warnings against other female developers?
Maybe I worded "emotionally destroy" too strongly. How about hurt their feelings a lot?

Believe me, you have power. It might not be a lot, but being there for someone can mean a lot, you know? Voicing your support can mean something. You might not have the power to fight trolls as much as you like, but you have the power to support the person being trolled to make the situation better.
Of course, if you insulted the hell out of a troll in the name of the victim, maybe in a funny way, the victim might feel better, too.

The community ignoring the problem is exactly what the "don't feed the trolls" crowd seems to be wanting, precisely. Because talking about the problem means giving the trolls what they want. If the problem's not talked about, then it's kinda ignored, isn't it? Silence is what the trolls want, too. All the people that complain every time someone talks about a topic like this? Do you want them to win so the issue is silenced while it still exists?
The problem won't be fixed if we don't try to fix it. The trolls will love that. It means they get to do what ever the hell they want so long as they don't break the rules, or laws, and that can be a lot.

I've voiced my disgust over the matter, haven't I? Pretty sure I have. I'd say it's something to set myself apart from the trolls. It might not be the most powerful move in the universe, but it's something. Did it change anything? Beats me. I added something, though.

And again youre thinking you can actually engage them on "your terms"

Thing is you cant. These are called anonymous for a reason.

How do you want to engage someone on your terms when you only have a nickname and some hatefull bile they spouted on some website to work with?

You are asking the impossible here. The community can do jack shit about the whole situation no matter if they care or not.

Why is this concept so hard to understand? We can do nothing of consequence to these people yet you still ask us to do "something" even thought it seems you have no clue yourselfe what that something is besides "destroying" people.

These people exist no matter if you like it or not and nothing you nor i do changes that. Taking away their soapboxes and opportunities to spread their harmfull bile is the only method that will ever work.

Theres a word these trolls use for people like you... its "lolcow" because you think you can win against them in their own game when the game starts with "you lose" automatically no matter how much you struggle.

To engage such persons is allready admitting defeat.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

So, here's the crux of the problem. You're basically saying you want Jim to say nothing about a woman being harassed intensely. Is it not important? Is it not worth talking about? Is it not worth knowing about? Should we ignore such intense harassment going on?

No, I'm not saying that. My problem is the inflammatory way that Jim said it, impugning the gaming community as a whole for this happening. You said yourself in an earlier post that Jim was kind of trolling us. That's behavior I have a problem with, just like I have a problem with the misogynist trolls and abusers. He doesn't seem to be honestly engaging us here.

He could easily report on this without blaming everybody else in the gaming community. This is one of the reasons I almost never play multiplayer games - because there are so many jerkwads out there who are abusive towards others on multiplayer chat. I make efforts to isolate myself from such people, because I've had enough abuse in my life. I miss out on many gaming experiences because I choose to do this. So, it isn't exactly pleasant when it's implied that I'm a jerkwad by association, because some troll did something I had nothing to do with. Or that I should shut up for some reason.

As for the idea that I should ignore Jim on the "don't feed the trolls" principle - I think that Jim is an intelligent guy, and he's not deliberately trying to troll. His videos are often very enjoyable. I don't think he's beyond redemption, which is why I think i's worthwhile addressing him here. I've always been quite supportive of Jim, but this episode is pretty on-the-nose. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his initial forum replies (and later lack of replies) diminish my respect for him.

If he's just going to go into defensive mode, and not learn anything from his critics here, then I think that will be sad for everybody. I'm all for sexual equality and fighting online abuse - I just think he chose a really counter-productive way to go about it. I know that being "edgy" is his schtick, but if he's unable to respond meaningfully to constructive criticism, then I might have to resign as a fan of his show.

I still gotta ask, if you don't feel an attachment to these assholes Jim talks about, and you speak out against them, then what's the problem? You're not one of the assholes Jim's talking about, IMO.

Maybe if he blamed just the people harassing her, it wouldn't have any impact? Or less impact? Maybe he's trying to stir people into action, and make them think about what it is they're doing in the grand scheme of things? Maybe he's showing us how the non-gamer world sees us because, really, what the hell have we done to show we aren't like the trolls to the outsiders?

I understand where you're coming from in multiplayer games. I generally only co-op at most.

I don't think Jim's telling you to shut up. Like I said I think he wants people to get moved into action, and speak out.

You think, maybe, Jim's asleep at this hour (Infact I should be asleep at this hour! ), thus unable to respond? He does wear many hats that no doubt keeps him busy with poems, movie defense force, and jimquisition, and reviews, and so forth, too.

 

[Karadalis]

Because jim blames me for giving gaming a bad name and suggests that by not caring for them i support them and in term are no better then them.

And its not only jim who does that, all the "garme juornalists" out there jump onto the bandwagon and point fingers at us.. wich in term gets eaten up by the mainstream media to showcase that all gamers are degenerate hatefull basement dwellers.

But by not caring for them or their opinions i am actually fighting them much more sucessfull then he, you or anyone else that believes you can engage and win against these people are.

You call these monsters into existance by constantly aknowledging them and their opinions and trying to refute the unrefutable. You wont change their believes, you wont hurt their feelings and you wont make them go away by giving them any form of attention.

And no... trolls lose interest in a "victim" that doesnt fight back. That is why they stick to people they know will fight back.

 

[Adventurer2626]

Almost calling me out on this video. I tend to avoid conflict like the plague so I suppose I'm among the "head in the sand" population of forum goers that forcibly shut out the two people arguing next to him and stare at the tv screen/monitor. I never intrude into "hot" discussions and sometimes am overly diplomatic with my stances. I tend to avoid "picking a side" because I don't believe in sides, teams or labels. I think in terms of compromising and agreeing on the best fit solution or rule for a situation and reevaluating that when it no longer fits well. Mostly what I see from debaters is defending one particular idea and actively attacking all others. They guilt neutral parties and smaller parties that are minorities with no chance of "winning" into joining them because "the other side is worse and if you don't support us, you support them." So yes, I am calling party-line towers (pronounced toe-ers) Siths. Thinking on this different wavelength, I find many discussions abysmally dismaying with no chance of compromise where the most extreme view with the most supporters wins. Or no one wins because an agreement is never reached and everyone gives up. It's a wonder we ever get anything done.

I realize this doesn't apply to every situation or literally nothing would ever get done, but this seems to be one of the afflicted issues. I think I'm just paranoid of the rampant, juvenile, misdirected label flinging that occurs in every discussion from forums to senate floors. If you defend someone, you're a "white knight" and if you try to debate the merits of someone's issue, you're "flaming/trolling." Most of the time the assertion is neither relevant nor true. True "white knights" look for any excuse to defend someone else and often add fuel to the fire by engaging the "flamers/trolls" whose only mission in life to obtain enjoyment from "getting a rise" out of others. People understand that that situation is bad, hence the bad connotations of those words. They just don't understand that they are doing them.

Now to say something relevant to the issue at hand...respect female gamers more? I honestly don't know what I could say to convince males that think "girls are dumb and deserve it when they get victimized" otherwise. It's like arguing with a crazy person that takes for granted that the sky is neon green. They just can't process that it's blue and sometimes black. The only way to get them to capitulate is to isolate them from their supporters and defeat them with overwhelming numbers. It's like when people start arguing they shut off their reason centers and defend their stance like their survival depends on it.

I guess that's what I get for being a lurker. I get jaded by watching the same play acted time and again. Sorry for being a might cranky but it gets annoying after a while to watch unreasonable people be unreasonable. I guess I'll stick with my policy of enthusiastic agreement with people that respect others and scowling in the general direction of dehumanizers.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Nothing will...

Nothing you nor i can do will stop a hatefull person being hatefull.

See you think these people care about what you or I think in the slightest.

That somehow our words affect them in any way or form

But they dont.. nothing you, nor i, nor anyone else says to them will stop them in their hate rampage.

The only thing that stop a troll from trolling is a ban, and even then they find a way around said ban.

So the only solution is to ignore these trolls and realize that they are a minority that holds no sway in the grander scheme of things.

As for the real live harasment... again it was extremely stupid to post her real life info like her phone number on the net.

Want a male example?

How about tha Blizzard admin who only posted his real name on the net and not hours later had people call him on his phone knowing all kinds of private info about him? He was also harrased.

But instead of people "coming to his aid" they rightly called him off for doing something incredible stupid. Theres being the victim and then there is making yourselfe readily available to becomming a victim.

That Blizzard example is actually a good example but not in the way you think. He posted his real name saying that just a name alone was not enough to make you unsafe. Then all of his personal info was found and he was called. In his case the people were very polite about it and said they just wanted to show why real names were a bad idea.

So you are kind of making the case FOR the existence of a double standard between male and female developers. That guy was not harassed.

Oh the example i wanted to take out of it is that posting your private info.. any private info is incredible stupid on the net.

And that it allways leads to very very bad stuff no matter the gender.

Also not harassed? It could and most likely would have gone bad very very fast if they hadnt removed the full name emidiantly and the people who had found out all that info had belonged to the more... hatefull demographic of the internet.

He was lucky... nothing more nothing less.

People actually told him where his kids go to school.. polite or not that is incredibly alarming and shows that no matter your gender, posting your info on the net is an invitation to bad things.

And... so what? Are you implying that the harassment is her fault because people were able to find her info? A lot of professionals have their info posted online so others can get in touch with them, my info is online for business purposes. This kind of comment reeks of "it is her fault" bullshit. If that is not what you mean then my apologies but it gets old reading this kind of blame the victim stuff.