Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[wulf3n]

So has anyone actually figured out why Zoe Quinn was harassed? I find it hard to believe it's only "Because she's a female developer" sure that may be a part of it but it's naive to think it's the only reason.

 

[Kevin Bennett]

The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

A bunch of game enthusiasts harass a woman online. Everybody starts blaming people. The victim, mostly. That, and alien creatures who are totally not real gamers.

Watch Video

Here is the problems I have with the ideas behind this video Mr Sterling, 1.- Do we say "all white people are racist" because the Aryan Brotherhood exists? Or that its somehow the white community's fault that they exist? You say its not enough to point out when they are being sexist, but what else can you do without deciding who is allowed to speak and who isn't? There have been sexist pigs as far back as the bible but we don't say there is something wrong with Christians because King James was sexist.

2.- Would you have made a video and protested if it hadn't been a woman? As I pointed out in the comments to your video about female characters a lot of the whole "That is (insert racist/sexist) and you are bad" stuff seems to always end up in the same area, political correctness and protected classes and acceptable victims. If it had been a man, would you have cared or would you have laughed and told him to pull up his big boy panties and deal? As I pointed out in that comment its perfectly acceptable to slaughter men by the thousand, even give achievements for blowing off their boy parts but if a game gave a "boob job" achievement for doing the exact same thing to a female? That game would be banned before the crates had been unpacked.

3.- Finally you claim that we in the gaming community are "always blaming the victim" but do you or do you not acknowledge that there ARE those that go out of their way to cause controversy for their own gain,be it in publicity or monetary? If you choose "buttnik" as a tag you are not exactly inviting people to respect you now are you? There IS such a thing as feeding the trolls, there IS such a thing as trollbaiting Mr Sterling. Let me put it this way..if she wouldn't have screamed sexism would you have reviewed her game? Would you have given it any publicity at all, or would it be just another one of those "arthouse" games that you ignored?

All we can do as a community is acknowledge when trolls are being trolls and condemn their behavior, anything more and we would have to sit down and have long talks about political correctness, what society considers an "acceptable target" and a whole bunch more topics that frankly society at large doesn't even want to touch, much less gamers.

 

[Jennacide]

Funny, you keep putting the onus of evidence upon me... I'm not the one saying I was harrassed, no?

Where's her evidence apart from a couple of out of context neckbeard comments which unless she went to the site purposely mysteriously coalesced out of nowhere.

EDIT: That's not the source BTW. There is no source. Because it's made up. Find me the original thread on wizardchan. That would be the point right? Probably far more then your constant need to attack me.

Because without evidence she was actually attacked, this is all coincidental. Right?

EDIT EDIT: also, read up on the rules of wizard chan and the board this all apparently came from (v9k or whatever). Explain to me wtf she was even doing there if not to antagonize.

for those that don't want to look, wizardchan is a site specifically for Male virgins over the age of 30 and v9k is the depression board in which women, or men in relationships, are specifically asked not to enter and discussion about women expressly forbidden

You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read your replies up to this point after your reply to me. But this was where I gave up. I don't know what your problem with Zoe is, or why you are defending her treatment, and I don't care. You have shown repeatedly to not have even read the article being discussed, and try to avert attention to other arguments to justify your opinion. This isn't even good debate, let alone to defend deplorable actions by a bunch of jerks. You claim Zoe brought this on herself by bringing it up elsewhere, but the article and Zoe's own tweets tell the exact story. The trouble started on Greenlight's comments. From there it was brought up on other forums like Wizardchan where they continued to slander her, and she felt the need to defend herself from the attacks, sometimes going to said sites. This is penultimate victim blaming.

I can't be bothered to read any more of this nonsense. I'm saddened that this sort of crap goes on still.

 

[Deadcyde]

Funny, you keep putting the onus of evidence upon me... I'm not the one saying I was harrassed, no?

Where's her evidence apart from a couple of out of context neckbeard comments which unless she went to the site purposely mysteriously coalesced out of nowhere.

EDIT: That's not the source BTW. There is no source. Because it's made up. Find me the original thread on wizardchan. That would be the point right? Probably far more then your constant need to attack me.

Because without evidence she was actually attacked, this is all coincidental. Right?

EDIT EDIT: also, read up on the rules of wizard chan and the board this all apparently came from (v9k or whatever). Explain to me wtf she was even doing there if not to antagonize.

for those that don't want to look, wizardchan is a site specifically for Male virgins over the age of 30 and v9k is the depression board in which women, or men in relationships, are specifically asked not to enter and discussion about women expressly forbidden

You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read your replies up to this point after your reply to me. But this was where I gave up. I don't know what your problem with Zoe is, or why you are defending her treatment, and I don't care. You have shown repeatedly to not have even read the article being discussed, and try to avert attention to other arguments to justify your opinion. This isn't even good debate, let alone to defend deplorable actions by a bunch of jerks. You claim Zoe brought this on herself by bringing it up elsewhere, but the article and Zoe's own tweets tell the exact story. The trouble started on Greenlight's comments. From there it was brought up on other forums like Wizardchan where they continued to slander her, and she felt the need to defend herself from the attacks, sometimes going to said sites. This is penultimate victim blaming.

I can't be bothered to read any more of this nonsense. I'm saddened that this sort of crap goes on still.

Have you read the greenlight? None of the comments there are even remotely based on sex, they are reviews based on the game being terrible and that this woman as a successful person with a social life and job and partner would have no idea about actual depression and that her game is basically an insult to people with depression. So enter the posts from wizardchan to give her cries of harassment some sort of basis. Never mind that they are completely out of context and not only not harassment but personal opinion that she had no reason to even search. But of course because she found it it must give credence to her apparent victimisation because otherwise there would be absolutely no proof of it.

Also don't talk down to me while you site a source that didn't even do any research.

I'd be happy to treat this as an actual problem if there were proof of it. However there isn't. In fact it even seems like she gains from this apparent assertion where as the apparent perpetrators would have much to lose. But hey, we all need something to hate, so lets pick on something that a) won't defend itself and b) a popular scapegoat because of past bullshit.

This is the real the problem with society. Not the minority of idiots that keep to themselves if you ignore them, but the people that need something to hate so much the use the "socially acceptable bad guys" to justify the hate. No need for evidence, no need to find out the actual cause just straight on with the hell fire and punishment of the evyil... relying on social values as a moral compass instead of the truth. Mob mentality at it's finest.

EDIT: also, stop creating a bullshit false dichotomy. Just because I don't believe her doesn't mean I condone harassment of that sort. This isn't "us vs them". It's "prove it before I pick up my pitchfork and torch".

EDIT EDIT: I also notice that these guys simply use an internet forum, how do we know they are gamers? Guess any hate on the internet comes under "gamers". Nice of them to tar us with that brush.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

A few damaged souls start arguing publicly on the internet over just who has got it worse off, and the entire internet has to pile on and pick sides to a cripple fight. There are 2.4 billion people on the internet. If anyone here expects to be universally loved, praised and adored by all of them, then you're going to grow old and die disappointed.

 

[Shaitan051]

Not knowing or *gasp* caring about an issue doesn't automatically make you part of the problem. That's ludicrous.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

BRB, going to go thumb this up on greenlight...

Right, done.

Now, to people who say "but these assholes aren't real gamers!" you should still condemn them regardless. I do. I mean, there is no reason to do this kind of social assault and bullying on someone. It's not like she's EA putting microtransactions into games and holding sequels hostage unless they make 5 million sales in the first week. It's not like she works for the NSA and is watching you jerk off to furry porn via your webcam. *sighs and shakes his head* I really do not understand some people.

Oh, and people were whining about the Dynasty Zelda? REALLY?! REALLY?! Why? It looks like it's going to be AWESOME. My only complaint is that it's going to force me to get a WiiU! XD

I've not actually seen anyone say they approve of this kind of thing yet, only that it's a net reality. So, for the record... I condemn this kind of thing. Now what happens?

I'm just gonna leave this quote from Winston Rowntree here, because it's relevant to the subject (replace sexism with harrasment):

"Very little makes me more pissed off than gender prejudice, but what do I ever do about it? Pretty much I just assume I?m not part of the problem, so enjoy your hive of scum and villainy, everyone, I live on a higher plane. And here you have by far the worst response to sexism: nothing. The response of choice of we who love avoiding confrontation (and comment section shitstorms). And so transgendered people continue to be disproportionately persecuted because not enough people are ensuring a supportive environment, and women continue to get chased off Twitter because not enough people are ensuring a supportive environment, and rape victims continue to not be taken seriously because not enough people are goddamn ensuring a supportive environment."

Who in this world doesn't take rape victims seriously? That alone to me discredits just about the entire quote.

I should have edited that to say male rape victims (here's a link: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men). My mistake.

Well, that can be true. However, he's still wrong comparing internet communities and irl communities. Anonymity changes just about everything in terms of human interaction. It's also not helped by the ease of liked minded individuals getting in contact with each other over the internet. He addresses us like a single community, which is entirely false. We're a bunch of communities with some similar interest in games. Within smaller groups this behavior is rarely allowed, but there is nothing you can do when someone doesn't care about your smaller group, because he's got his own group that doesn't care.

I agree. I think the chasm between internet and reality in regards to socialising is massive.

I'm not on any social media (barring this, unless you want to count this), but I have seen enough to conclude that persona's get exaggerated for effect. The fact that it's not face-to-face changes things fairly drastically too, I would have thought. You can say something horrible and you don't have to witness what the face of the person you've said it too expresses, that's gotta be a game changer.

Not knowing or *gasp* caring about an issue doesn't automatically make you part of the problem. That's ludicrous.

Well said.

 

[Chemical Alia]

This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago around Dallas, where a girl took a plane trip to look at Christmas lights one night, and walked face-first into one of the plane's propellers that had been left running upon disembarking. She survived, but lost one of her hands and an eye. I remember reading the comments on her story, and so many people jumped right to the assumption that she "must" have been on her phone and not paying attention, and therefore deserved it.

I guess it must be easier for people to deal with nasty shit happening when they can tell themselves that the person somehow deserved it or had it coming, as the result of being stupid, ditzy, careless or a bad person. We can rest easier knowing that bad things only ever happen to bad people, maybe that's why it's so easy to demonize people in situations like these.

 

[lord.jeff]

So has anyone actually figured out why Zoe Quinn was harassed? I find it hard to believe it's only "Because she's a female developer" sure that may be a part of it but it's naive to think it's the only reason.

She was harassed because people disliked or disagreed with things in her game and it's the internet so instead of "I take issue with any game that encourages drug use" you get "You should be raped and murdered you fucking ****." She wasn't so much assaulted for being a women but the attacks on her insulted her for being a women despite them really being about the game she made. Either way it something we should be trying to get rid of.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Well frankly, what gamers need is a legitimately recognized figure head, recognized not just by some gamers, but literally all gamers, who can publicly announce condemnation of a particular group such as this, and that we as the gaming community do not recognize these people as part of the gaming community any longer.

Likewise, people who post such things, need their posting rights taken away. Websites are not obligated to have a user on their forums or even required to be a part of their forums in their posts. Websites are privately owned domain, and people who make such comments should in fact have their posting privileges revoked. Attacks like those should not be tolerated, and met with a suitable punishment such as removal of posting rights. Something that happens on the escapist I see.

Condemnation, and posting rights revoked. Sure users will make new accounts, but it only has to happen so many times before people get the hint, and or the problem eventually removes itself.

This is a small group of individuals, eventually they can be weeded out and removed.

This post is so naive, that I can't quite tell if it's serious or not.

A gaming figure head? This isn't a government, and the community of gamers is more like the incredibly large pool of communities who happen to enjoy video games. This doesn't exist inside any other form of media, so why the hell would you think it's possible in gaming?

In terms of forums, sure that will work for individual forums and that absolutely happens in individual forums. What you suggest happens right here on the Escapist. However, being privately owned and being the internet, a place where there is a place for literally everything, there will be forums that don't care about this kind of behavior or were formed around it. Wizardchan when it stays in Wizardchan, is perfectly fine. No one has to go to Wizardchan. Everyone should know what they're going to find when they go looking at Wizardchan. If they don't they should find out pretty quick. Either way, these people aren't ever going to be completely removed from the internets because they have a safe haven that non of us can do ANYTHING about. I'd argue that it's a good thing we can't do anything about it. The precedent that you'd set going after places like that, would give a very long reach to anyone who used for less noble ideals.

This is a small group of individuals, who also form a small community in an insulated corner of the internet. They can't be weeded out. Anything they do is their choice. There is nothing we can, except impotently rage, ignore it, or try to reason with it. All you can realistically do is make sure they don't leave their small corner of the internet, and that isn't even fool proof.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

So if I say you're preaching to the choir... I'm not a member of the choir?

Admittedly, this is my fault. I clicked on the link. I watched the video. I read through the comments.

At the same time, it's becoming more and more difficult to navigate my usual online gaming haunts without constantly running into social justice platforms where a) 95% of the people reading/watching 100% agree with the sentiments expressed, and b) harping on the same issue over and over again accomplishes precisely fuck-all. You're not changing troll behavior in this community any more than people are changing essentially identical troll behavior seen in every other online community. CNN comments sections? Riddled with racism, homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, etc. ESPN comments sections? Same. Gaming forums? You betcha. You can be mad at people saying "that's the internet" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's fucking reality. Online trolls exist in an unstoppable positive feedback loop, and no amount of hand-wringing is going to change that. In fact, the only thing that would change it is the sort of draconian limitations that most of these same enlightened crusaders frequently decry as fascist.

As for the 4Chan stuff and victim blaming... there's a difference between taking a stray bullet when you're walking down a public street and getting shot when you're streaking across a shooting range. Some corners of the internet are literally dedicated trolling grounds. Reasonably intelligent people don't wander into those places unless they're hankering for some abuse, which is probably why some suspect that such "unfortunate" people do so on purpose in order to generate press. I'm not accusing anyone of such a scheme, but it's definitely not an unreasonable theory in some cases.

 

[t850terminator]

The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

A bunch of game enthusiasts harass a woman online. Everybody starts blaming people. The victim, mostly. That, and alien creatures who are totally not real gamers.

Watch Video

Seeing your reaction to the Hyrule Warriors...
Just made my day...XD

 

[t850terminator]

What the bloody fucking hell? 63%???? And this is why I stay offline...
I never really understood harassment of people based on gender... everyone is equally human (and everyone in a game is just XP walking around to me XD)
Depression Quest, idk about it, I have been depressed many times in my life...and the concept seems interesting, but just not into the interactive fiction novel thing... I prefer things rendered with 3d engines..
And seriously, the greatest fictional character (IMO) is female...
GlaDos.

Wish I could help out with the situation...

 

[Valkyrie1981]

So what do you do? The social construct of the Internet social culture is as vast far larger then the real world where you have far more social constrictions. Unlike the real world where nearly every act made by a person is owned by a person, the internet allows one to strip such ownership. When one does take ownership it can be very detrimental as seen to what happened to Zoë Quinn. People have the right no matter how much of an asshat/tool it makes them to anonymously make any comment they want without taking ownership. As long as you are aloud such anonymity (Which in the end despite the assholes is a good thing) in the Internet you will have people attack Zoë Quinn, defend her, ignore her, blame her, and have people take no responsibility. There is no fix to the problem of the backlash Zoë Quinn got, you can only ask people to be nice you can't force it...

I am sure Zoë Quinn feels somewhat betrayed by the community she I am sure loves and is apart of to see so many turn on her or turn her back on her. The internet is fickle and its best she address this issue physically in public locations like a convention. She deserves to be heard her cause is just. You should take it to the people directly where I doubt there would be a fraction of what she is dealing with in the virtual world

 

[JarinArenos]

As for the 4Chan stuff and victim blaming... there's a difference between taking a stray bullet when you're walking down a public street and getting shot when you're streaking across a shooting range. Some corners of the internet are literally dedicated trolling grounds. Reasonably intelligent people don't wander into those places unless they're hankering for some abuse, which is probably why some suspect that such "unfortunate" people do so on purpose in order to generate press. I'm not accusing anyone of such a scheme, but it's definitely not an unreasonable theory in some cases.

The analogy breaks down unless shooting ranges get up and chase various people down that weren't anywhere near them. She didn't go looking on the Chan board for comments, THEY started attacking her greenlight, and then her personal contact info.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

As for the 4Chan stuff and victim blaming... there's a difference between taking a stray bullet when you're walking down a public street and getting shot when you're streaking across a shooting range. Some corners of the internet are literally dedicated trolling grounds. Reasonably intelligent people don't wander into those places unless they're hankering for some abuse, which is probably why some suspect that such "unfortunate" people do so on purpose in order to generate press. I'm not accusing anyone of such a scheme, but it's definitely not an unreasonable theory in some cases.

The analogy breaks down unless shooting ranges get up and chase various people down that weren't anywhere near them. She didn't go looking on the Chan board for comments, THEY started attacking her greenlight, and then her personal contact info.

I tried to indicate that I was not accusing this woman of doing anything like this, and there's always the police or the feds whenever someone crosses the line. Short of that, there's nothing anyone can do to stop this harassment without resorting to draconian censorship measures - the sort of measures that governments and corporations would immediately turn around and use against all of us to the detriment of the entire internet.

The people committing these acts might be gamers, but that doesn't mean there is any link between gaming and their behavior. It means that some really shitty people also happen to be gamers. Continually pretending this issue is specific to our shared hobby is illogical and (for the well-behaved among us) frustrating/infuriating. I, and apparently several others, are tired of these stories because they don't accomplish anything. You can't shame a person with no shame. You can't silence someone with free speech. We're dealing with the "Westboro Baptist Church" subset of the internet here, and the best way to do that is to IGNORE THEM unless they cross legitimate legal lines (at which point you hurl as many books as hard as you can).

Semi-on topic: there seems to be this enormous backlash whenever someone tries to lay out precautions for avoiding harassment, as if preparing for the world as it exists and wishing/working for a better one are somehow mutually exclusive concepts. I can tell my extremely petite younger sister that she shouldn't walk around by herself downtown late at night AND despise the sort of people who would do her harm in that situation - both at the same time. I'm not going to pretend that people don't blame victims, but not everyone offering advice for avoiding harassment is doing so. Some people actually just care about other human beings and want them to be happy, and sometimes that means recognizing the world/environment for what it is WHILE helping to change it for the better.

 

[JarinArenos]

The people committing these acts might be gamers, but that doesn't mean there is any link between gaming and their behavior. It means that some really shitty people also happen to be gamers. Continually pretending this issue is specific to our shared hobby is illogical and (for the well-behaved among us) frustrating/infuriating. I, and apparently several others, are tired of these stories because they don't accomplish anything. You can't shame a person with no shame. You can't silence someone with free speech. We're dealing with the "Westboro Baptist Church" subset of the internet here, and the best way to do that is to IGNORE THEM unless they cross legitimate legal lines (at which point you hurl as many books as hard as you can).

Westboro Baptist, for all the publicity they get, is a far smaller percentage of the religious population than the slimy underbelly of the gaming populace seems to be (compare 100 or so WB members and well more than half the US being "religious" identifying). And moreover, you don't see the majority of people acting like that because they DO get shamed constantly. You don't see people defending racist assholes for being racist assholes (mostly), or at the very least, they have to be circumspect about it. Yes, anonymity changes things, but if someone starts tossing around racially-charged insults on 90% of web forums, they'll get banned. That isn't unreasonable censorship, that's just cleaning up the trash. Why should gender-based insults be any different? (I mean, the escapist locks down ANY personal insults, after all)

Semi-on topic: there seems to be this enormous backlash whenever someone tries to lay out precautions for avoiding harassment, as if preparing for the world as it exists and wishing/working for a better one are somehow mutually exclusive concepts. I can tell my extremely petite younger sister that she shouldn't walk around by herself downtown late at night AND despise the sort of people who would do her harm in that situation - both at the same time. I'm not going to pretend that people don't blame victims, but not everyone offering advice for avoiding harassment is doing so. Some people actually just care about other human beings and want them to be happy, and sometimes that means recognizing the world/environment for what it is WHILE helping to change it for the better.

I can completely understand where you're coming from here. I live in a big-city downtown area, and there's absolutely areas that I wouldn't go wandering around, and would advise others to avoid as well. Sure, if you go there and get mugged it's the attacker's fault, but caution is smart as well. The problem is that avoidance isn't our ONLY option. We have law enforcement. The neighborhood I live in was a rather dangerous place to live just 5 or so years ago, but regular police patrols and other local efforts have greatly improved the area. None of this was accomplished by focusing on avoidance of problems. THAT is why people lash out at "victim blaming", even when it's done with the best of intentions, because it removes the focus from actually fixing anything. Especially in cases like the ones Jim keeps bringing up, where the avoidance method seems to be "don't be a public female figure in the games industry". Drive the scum back to their holes by denying them a voice anywhere else.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

I'm calling BS on this one.

I'll state it straightaway: I didn't rush to the defense of Zoe Quinn. I heard what was happening, rolled my eyes in disgust, then went about my own business. And you know what? I'm not sorry for it. Furthermore, contrary to our dear Mr. Sterling's oh-so-measured opinion, I am NOT an asshole because of it.

I have never harassed another person. Have I had arguments? You bet. Have I been rude and confrontational? To people I felt deserved it, yes. But have ever I intentionally set out to wound another person through malicious actions? Absolutely not, and therein lies the failure in Jim's assertions.

It's true that I didn't go speeding across the internet, sounding my trumpet in the defense of Zoe Quinn. As I said, I rolled my eyes and went on with my life. But the thing is, one of the normal, daily practices of my life is to treat the people I encounter with respect and good manners, regardless of their gender, race, social standing, etc. The fact that I don't choose to entangle myself in every miserable situation on the internet does NOT mean I'm the equal of some vile little troll. I am their moral better, as is nearly everyone who will read this.

Jim has made a false, irrational, unsupportable claim, and this is a statement of my direct and vehement opposition. I am a good and moral person. As far as I can tell, Jim is a good person. If you're reading this, chances are that you're a pretty good person too. Am I an asshole because I didn't get involved in a forum battle over the actions of some putrid turds from a dank corner of the net?

Nope.

And you know what?

Neither are you.

You phrased my feelings on this better than I did. I'm increasingly convinced that Jim doesn't have a clue what he's talking about when it comes to anything regarding gender issues. Or as the detractors on YouTube like to say - he's the Thunderf00t of gender issues.

 

[Deadcyde]

*sighs* I've said it once i'll say it a thousand times.. Check the greenlight. There is no proof they attacked her there. Her only proof she was attacked is the screenshots. The twitter ones seemingly like sarcastic references to the wizardchan ones which she had to go and find herself.

DO some research. THINK for yourselves.

Really. For supposedly enlightened people you have a severe distatse for actually researching this.

 

[Batou667]

I don't usually watch Jimquisition - for good reason - but I watched this one. In my opinion, Jim is a good polemicist but has faulty logic.

Basically, I totally reject the idea that as a male gamer, my silence on issues like the so-called epidemic of female harassment in gaming culture makes me in any way culpable through inaction. That's just bullshit.

Let me provide some equivalent statements that would be quickly shot down as the bullshit they patently are:

"Gun violence and drugs are endemic to black culture. It's the responsibility of every black person to constantly and conspicuously decry guns and drugs. A black person not seen opposing this will be deemed to be part of the problem"

"Let's not pretend Valerie Solanas and Andrea Dworkin are the so-called 'outliers' of Feminism. Feminists have to own their mistakes. It's cowardly and disingenuous for Feminists to claim Solanas and Dworkin don't represent them. I suppose they're magical space pixies, who are totally not real Feminists, eh? Ho ho"

And just to co-opt and invert a bit more social justice rhetoric;

Oh, "male gamers" are the problem? I'll be sure to raise that issue at the next Male Gamers Annual General Meeting. Because we're totally a monolith, devoid of any individuality or plurality of thought. The Male Gamer Hivemind will be notified at once!