And if a woman wears a skimpy dress it is her fault when she gets raped, right? I find your ideas repugnant.Karadalis said:
Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Unfortunately that falls under the heading of, "Things Assholes Do In the Course of Being Assholes," but it isn't the problem. The problem is that there is no meaningful consequence for those actions. As long as they are able to get away with it scott free then they will continue to do it. While this video is a nice rant aimed at raising awareness of the issue (though if you are still unaware of this this may be your first day on the internet) it does exactly nothing to solve the problem. What I am asking is if anyone has any ideas that could lead to a solution not simply a knowledge base of the fact that assholes exist and how they express their assholishness.Bruce said:
You know, I have a hard time taking it seriously when people paint the entire side of a massive argument with the same brush. Also did you happen to happen to catch the part where the links about the insulting posts where sent to her? And also, would you care to tell me where money came into the equation? Depression quest is going to be a free game.odinzeus said:
BRB, going to go thumb this up on greenlight...
Right, done.
Now, to people who say "but these assholes aren't real gamers!" you should still condemn them regardless. I do. I mean, there is no reason to do this kind of social assault and bullying on someone. It's not like she's EA putting microtransactions into games and holding sequels hostage unless they make 5 million sales in the first week. It's not like she works for the NSA and is watching you jerk off to furry porn via your webcam. *sighs and shakes his head* I really do not understand some people.
Oh, and people were whining about the Dynasty Zelda? REALLY?! REALLY?! Why? It looks like it's going to be AWESOME. My only complaint is that it's going to force me to get a WiiU! XD
Right, done.
Now, to people who say "but these assholes aren't real gamers!" you should still condemn them regardless. I do. I mean, there is no reason to do this kind of social assault and bullying on someone. It's not like she's EA putting microtransactions into games and holding sequels hostage unless they make 5 million sales in the first week. It's not like she works for the NSA and is watching you jerk off to furry porn via your webcam. *sighs and shakes his head* I really do not understand some people.
Oh, and people were whining about the Dynasty Zelda? REALLY?! REALLY?! Why? It looks like it's going to be AWESOME. My only complaint is that it's going to force me to get a WiiU! XD
I still can't believe there are some people, who seem like smart, reasonable people, are actually taking the opposite side, or as Jim says, playing the Devil's advocate, and thus people will automatically jump on reasons to justify their blatantly misogynistic personalities and treatment of women. Like, holy crap, how did it get this bad, how are so many people doing this without any kind of remorse? I'm sick of "it's just the Internet" or "that's how these things are here" or worse yet "this or that person shouldn't have the right to complain/critique/speak at all, because it's not meant for them", like freaking Hell, can we PLEASE actually TRY to be more accepting?!
Also, this episode reminds me of The Big Picture : Not Okay video, where MovieBob essentially said the same thing Jim said, that gamers are more quick to sweep this under the rug then actually deal with it. You know, feinting ignorance may not be as bad as actually committing the act, but it's still pretty horrible.
Also, this episode reminds me of The Big Picture : Not Okay video, where MovieBob essentially said the same thing Jim said, that gamers are more quick to sweep this under the rug then actually deal with it. You know, feinting ignorance may not be as bad as actually committing the act, but it's still pretty horrible.
Here is the problems I have with the ideas behind this video Mr Sterling, 1.- Do we say "all white people are racist" because the Aryan Brotherhood exists? Or that its somehow the white community's fault that they exist? You say its not enough to point out when they are being sexist, but what else can you do without deciding who is allowed to speak and who isn't? There have been sexist pigs as far back as the bible but we don't say there is something wrong with Christians because King James was sexist.Jimothy Sterling said:
2.- Would you have made a video and protested if it hadn't been a woman? As I pointed out in the comments to your video about female characters a lot of the whole "That is (insert racist/sexist) and you are bad" stuff seems to always end up in the same area, political correctness and protected classes and acceptable victims. If it had been a man, would you have cared or would you have laughed and told him to pull up his big boy panties and deal? As I pointed out in that comment its perfectly acceptable to slaughter men by the thousand, even give achievements for blowing off their boy parts but if a game gave a "boob job" achievement for doing the exact same thing to a female? That game would be banned before the crates had been unpacked.
3.- Finally you claim that we in the gaming community are "always blaming the victim" but do you or do you not acknowledge that there ARE those that go out of their way to cause controversy for their own gain,be it in publicity or monetary? If you choose "buttnik" as a tag you are not exactly inviting people to respect you now are you? There IS such a thing as feeding the trolls, there IS such a thing as trollbaiting Mr Sterling. Let me put it this way..if she wouldn't have screamed sexism would you have reviewed her game? Would you have given it any publicity at all, or would it be just another one of those "arthouse" games that you ignored?
All we can do as a community is acknowledge when trolls are being trolls and condemn their behavior, anything more and we would have to sit down and have long talks about political correctness, what society considers an "acceptable target" and a whole bunch more topics that frankly society at large doesn't even want to touch, much less gamers.
You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read your replies up to this point after your reply to me. But this was where I gave up. I don't know what your problem with Zoe is, or why you are defending her treatment, and I don't care. You have shown repeatedly to not have even read the article being discussed, and try to avert attention to other arguments to justify your opinion. This isn't even good debate, let alone to defend deplorable actions by a bunch of jerks. You claim Zoe brought this on herself by bringing it up elsewhere, but the article and Zoe's own tweets tell the exact story. The trouble started on Greenlight's comments. From there it was brought up on other forums like Wizardchan where they continued to slander her, and she felt the need to defend herself from the attacks, sometimes going to said sites. This is penultimate victim blaming.Deadcyde said:
I can't be bothered to read any more of this nonsense. I'm saddened that this sort of crap goes on still.
Have you read the greenlight? None of the comments there are even remotely based on sex, they are reviews based on the game being terrible and that this woman as a successful person with a social life and job and partner would have no idea about actual depression and that her game is basically an insult to people with depression. So enter the posts from wizardchan to give her cries of harassment some sort of basis. Never mind that they are completely out of context and not only not harassment but personal opinion that she had no reason to even search. But of course because she found it it must give credence to her apparent victimisation because otherwise there would be absolutely no proof of it.Jennacide said:
Also don't talk down to me while you site a source that didn't even do any research.
I'd be happy to treat this as an actual problem if there were proof of it. However there isn't. In fact it even seems like she gains from this apparent assertion where as the apparent perpetrators would have much to lose. But hey, we all need something to hate, so lets pick on something that a) won't defend itself and b) a popular scapegoat because of past bullshit.
This is the real the problem with society. Not the minority of idiots that keep to themselves if you ignore them, but the people that need something to hate so much the use the "socially acceptable bad guys" to justify the hate. No need for evidence, no need to find out the actual cause just straight on with the hell fire and punishment of the evyil... relying on social values as a moral compass instead of the truth. Mob mentality at it's finest.
EDIT: also, stop creating a bullshit false dichotomy. Just because I don't believe her doesn't mean I condone harassment of that sort. This isn't "us vs them". It's "prove it before I pick up my pitchfork and torch".
EDIT EDIT: I also notice that these guys simply use an internet forum, how do we know they are gamers? Guess any hate on the internet comes under "gamers". Nice of them to tar us with that brush.
A few damaged souls start arguing publicly on the internet over just who has got it worse off, and the entire internet has to pile on and pick sides to a cripple fight. There are 2.4 billion people on the internet. If anyone here expects to be universally loved, praised and adored by all of them, then you're going to grow old and die disappointed.
Not knowing or *gasp* caring about an issue doesn't automatically make you part of the problem. That's ludicrous.
I've not actually seen anyone say they approve of this kind of thing yet, only that it's a net reality. So, for the record... I condemn this kind of thing. Now what happens?aegix drakan said:
I agree. I think the chasm between internet and reality in regards to socialising is massive.th3dark3rsh33p said:
I'm not on any social media (barring this, unless you want to count this), but I have seen enough to conclude that persona's get exaggerated for effect. The fact that it's not face-to-face changes things fairly drastically too, I would have thought. You can say something horrible and you don't have to witness what the face of the person you've said it too expresses, that's gotta be a game changer.
Well said.Shaitan051 said:
Not knowing or *gasp* caring about an issue doesn't automatically make you part of the problem. That's ludicrous.
This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago around Dallas, where a girl took a plane trip to look at Christmas lights one night, and walked face-first into one of the plane's propellers that had been left running upon disembarking. She survived, but lost one of her hands and an eye. I remember reading the comments on her story, and so many people jumped right to the assumption that she "must" have been on her phone and not paying attention, and therefore deserved it.
I guess it must be easier for people to deal with nasty shit happening when they can tell themselves that the person somehow deserved it or had it coming, as the result of being stupid, ditzy, careless or a bad person. We can rest easier knowing that bad things only ever happen to bad people, maybe that's why it's so easy to demonize people in situations like these.
I guess it must be easier for people to deal with nasty shit happening when they can tell themselves that the person somehow deserved it or had it coming, as the result of being stupid, ditzy, careless or a bad person. We can rest easier knowing that bad things only ever happen to bad people, maybe that's why it's so easy to demonize people in situations like these.
She was harassed because people disliked or disagreed with things in her game and it's the internet so instead of "I take issue with any game that encourages drug use" you get "You should be raped and murdered you fucking ****." She wasn't so much assaulted for being a women but the attacks on her insulted her for being a women despite them really being about the game she made. Either way it something we should be trying to get rid of.wulf3n said:
This post is so naive, that I can't quite tell if it's serious or not.ultreos2 said:
A gaming figure head? This isn't a government, and the community of gamers is more like the incredibly large pool of communities who happen to enjoy video games. This doesn't exist inside any other form of media, so why the hell would you think it's possible in gaming?
In terms of forums, sure that will work for individual forums and that absolutely happens in individual forums. What you suggest happens right here on the Escapist. However, being privately owned and being the internet, a place where there is a place for literally everything, there will be forums that don't care about this kind of behavior or were formed around it. Wizardchan when it stays in Wizardchan, is perfectly fine. No one has to go to Wizardchan. Everyone should know what they're going to find when they go looking at Wizardchan. If they don't they should find out pretty quick. Either way, these people aren't ever going to be completely removed from the internets because they have a safe haven that non of us can do ANYTHING about. I'd argue that it's a good thing we can't do anything about it. The precedent that you'd set going after places like that, would give a very long reach to anyone who used for less noble ideals.
This is a small group of individuals, who also form a small community in an insulated corner of the internet. They can't be weeded out. Anything they do is their choice. There is nothing we can, except impotently rage, ignore it, or try to reason with it. All you can realistically do is make sure they don't leave their small corner of the internet, and that isn't even fool proof.
So if I say you're preaching to the choir... I'm not a member of the choir?
Admittedly, this is my fault. I clicked on the link. I watched the video. I read through the comments.
At the same time, it's becoming more and more difficult to navigate my usual online gaming haunts without constantly running into social justice platforms where a) 95% of the people reading/watching 100% agree with the sentiments expressed, and b) harping on the same issue over and over again accomplishes precisely fuck-all. You're not changing troll behavior in this community any more than people are changing essentially identical troll behavior seen in every other online community. CNN comments sections? Riddled with racism, homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, etc. ESPN comments sections? Same. Gaming forums? You betcha. You can be mad at people saying "that's the internet" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's fucking reality. Online trolls exist in an unstoppable positive feedback loop, and no amount of hand-wringing is going to change that. In fact, the only thing that would change it is the sort of draconian limitations that most of these same enlightened crusaders frequently decry as fascist.
As for the 4Chan stuff and victim blaming... there's a difference between taking a stray bullet when you're walking down a public street and getting shot when you're streaking across a shooting range. Some corners of the internet are literally dedicated trolling grounds. Reasonably intelligent people don't wander into those places unless they're hankering for some abuse, which is probably why some suspect that such "unfortunate" people do so on purpose in order to generate press. I'm not accusing anyone of such a scheme, but it's definitely not an unreasonable theory in some cases.
Admittedly, this is my fault. I clicked on the link. I watched the video. I read through the comments.
At the same time, it's becoming more and more difficult to navigate my usual online gaming haunts without constantly running into social justice platforms where a) 95% of the people reading/watching 100% agree with the sentiments expressed, and b) harping on the same issue over and over again accomplishes precisely fuck-all. You're not changing troll behavior in this community any more than people are changing essentially identical troll behavior seen in every other online community. CNN comments sections? Riddled with racism, homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, etc. ESPN comments sections? Same. Gaming forums? You betcha. You can be mad at people saying "that's the internet" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's fucking reality. Online trolls exist in an unstoppable positive feedback loop, and no amount of hand-wringing is going to change that. In fact, the only thing that would change it is the sort of draconian limitations that most of these same enlightened crusaders frequently decry as fascist.
As for the 4Chan stuff and victim blaming... there's a difference between taking a stray bullet when you're walking down a public street and getting shot when you're streaking across a shooting range. Some corners of the internet are literally dedicated trolling grounds. Reasonably intelligent people don't wander into those places unless they're hankering for some abuse, which is probably why some suspect that such "unfortunate" people do so on purpose in order to generate press. I'm not accusing anyone of such a scheme, but it's definitely not an unreasonable theory in some cases.
