Jimquisition: Vertigo

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Darmani

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Spearmaster said:
Wait, so now this mythical female protagonist has to be a deep, emotional, intelligent, never relies on a man ever, is never affected by a man, and now has to be conventionally ugly on top of that. Good luck selling that game.


Put out an APB for a 4'6" tall, 350# woman with severe burn scars all over her face and body and missing one leg and make a game about her...what.... oh that's right real people are boring and nobody gives a shit accept the PC hookers who have to appeal to their base by vilifying the very thing they make their living from...shameful.
If I may, how about just funding a game with a woman of color. [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero?ref=live]

Hell how about two? [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/combitstudios/river-city-ransom-underground?ref=live]

Those less advantaged Kickstarters that haven't even beat $1 Million M#9 is already at $3.5M Just think how the The One Adorned with Hoops and other SJWs will spin THAT!!!. Cut them off at the pass demand with your wallets these games be made and PROVE how not sexist your are (in a self serving way that backs cool video game projects
SO AM I. Point to your backing a kickstarter with a middle eastern woman in a kickass console release as a way to fund more female protagonists in the industry, ones denied.

While Shantae is pretty, even sexualized she fights because of heritage and she's the guardian genie, not just for some man.

Also there is this
[http://s85.photobucket.com/user/martikhoras/media/RCR-U1_zpsc613f11a.jpg.html]
[http://s85.photobucket.com/user/martikhoras/media/RCR-U2_zps530a8e21.jpg.html]
Thick black woman in a hoodie ready to KICK ASS. Don't know her motive and we won't if you don't help her get made. [http://kck.st/1e9tgOq]
 

Amaror

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Apr 15, 2011
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Jan Smejkal said:
Amaror said:
But sure, if we find examples that disagree with Jim, let's just make his ruleset even more arbitrary than it already is.
Save this crap please. I'm just not sure if that counts because the central character is different. You also don't make story-wise meaningful decisions for Kreia so. Also party based. I am just no sure. Where is some female equivalent of GTA 4/5 characters? Or of the Courrier in F:NV? Or Kane and Lynch, the Witcher, the guy in Amnesia, in Gothic, the old guy from Left 4 Dead? Or the famous NAMELESS ONE from Planescape Torment? And this is just me stepping trhough my vast game library. It is not much (which is sad as well), but there are some original male chars. But no female. Really the most original one is probably the girl from Portal (and that is just a model you control).

What suprises me is the fact that there are some (but much less than male) such female NPCs in games but you don't get to *PLAY* as any of them.

Also note that I (and I bet Jim too) would be gladly proven wrong on some big scale.
As i said in my original post, i am not disagreeing with the statement that there aren't as many good female characters as there are good male characters.
The reason i posted critique was simply the fact that this episode of the jimquisition was pretty crappy.
I agree with the message he's trying to get across, but the way he tried to get it across was crap.
He made up an arbitrary amount of arbitrary rules which he claimed would describe a good character.
While each of his rules alone was a trait a well written character would have, mashed together they make no sense.

This is why i said that his ruleset what makes a good character doesn't fit any character, because it just doesn't. It doesn't fit male characters and it doesn't fit female characters.
I can even go through each of your examples:
Gta 4 - Niko Bellic - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Franklin - Attractive, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Michael - conventionally attractive, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Trevor - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Fallow NV - Courrier - Self created, doesn't fit.
Kane and Linch - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
The Witcher - Geralt - conventionally attractive + Tragic Background, doesn't fit (Besides he wasn't created from the game industry, so he shouldn't really count either way.)
Amnesia - Guy - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Gothic - Nameless Dude - Conventionally attractive, doesn't fit.

I don't know the other two.
These are all great characters, yet none of them fit Jim's list.
Yet again: I don't disagree with Jim's point. There are not as much great female video game characters as there are great male video game characters.
I know he made his list as arbitrary as it is, so he could make a funny joke about how vertigo is the best female character gaming has to offer.
But it not only wasn't funny, it also killed his argument, which is not a good thing, because i do agree with his point.
 

Amaror

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G-Force said:
KissingSunlight said:
Sgt. Sykes said:
You know, seeing how half of people here give examples of women in games, and the other half dismiss them as not meeting the criteria, I now have to say the criteria are actually quite arbitrary.

I want a game where I can play as an underwater dog marine, a space octopus, an alien bacteria or an up-side-down helicopter. But I can't find any games like this! You fail, game industry!
Thank You! I'm not the only one who thought the criteria Jim had was overly specific. I mentioned this before. One theory why videogames don't have very many female protagonists. Vocal game critics have ridiculous uber-specific demands on what the female looks like, story, hero/villain, etc. There is no way game developers can please them. (Unless, you make the female character a purple dinosaur.) You don't hear that kind of demand about male characters in videogames. Most of them wouldn't be able to meet Jim's criteria about female characters.

Most male characters WOULD be able to meet Jim's criteria and that's the major issue. With male's we can have playable protagonists who are ugly by conventional standards, act like a horrible person and have motivations that stem beyond trying to please the opposite sex. Why don't we see more games where you play as a woman horribly scarred physically, someone incredibly old or someone overweight or even slightly chubby? We have a wide variety of male characters out there and it would be refreshing to see that same level of variety with female protagonists.
ok challenge:
Name 5 male video game characters which fit his description exactly.
Here it is again:
- not self created.
- Ugly
- Not motivated by woman in any way.
- Not motivates by a trauma
- Not good. (ergo bad)
 

loa

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Unusual independent playable power fantasy female protagonist not designed to show off 90° angled hips?
Amaterasu from Okami.
In the end of the day all you do in primal rage is what every other character does, beating things up, while in okami, you actually get to do the godly acts and are the main driving force of the story.

Also how about faith from mirrors edge?
Not unusual enough and/or "too attractive" I guess?

What about the main character from journey?
Not explicitly female and/or not interesting enough?

We could use more amaterasus and vertigos though.
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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Amaror said:
G-Force said:
KissingSunlight said:
Sgt. Sykes said:
You know, seeing how half of people here give examples of women in games, and the other half dismiss them as not meeting the criteria, I now have to say the criteria are actually quite arbitrary.

I want a game where I can play as an underwater dog marine, a space octopus, an alien bacteria or an up-side-down helicopter. But I can't find any games like this! You fail, game industry!
Thank You! I'm not the only one who thought the criteria Jim had was overly specific. I mentioned this before. One theory why videogames don't have very many female protagonists. Vocal game critics have ridiculous uber-specific demands on what the female looks like, story, hero/villain, etc. There is no way game developers can please them. (Unless, you make the female character a purple dinosaur.) You don't hear that kind of demand about male characters in videogames. Most of them wouldn't be able to meet Jim's criteria about female characters.

Most male characters WOULD be able to meet Jim's criteria and that's the major issue. With male's we can have playable protagonists who are ugly by conventional standards, act like a horrible person and have motivations that stem beyond trying to please the opposite sex. Why don't we see more games where you play as a woman horribly scarred physically, someone incredibly old or someone overweight or even slightly chubby? We have a wide variety of male characters out there and it would be refreshing to see that same level of variety with female protagonists.
ok challenge:
Name 5 male video game characters which fit his description exactly.
Here it is again:
- not self created.
- Ugly
- Not motivated by woman in any way.
- Not motivates by a trauma
- Not good. (ergo bad)
You forgot a couple criteria Jim also wanted for the girls:

+ playable protagonist
+ original

That last one is the biggest hurdle here, for both male and female protagonists.
 

RandV80

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Well I'm kind of late to the discussion, but from the indy genre how about the game Aquaria with it's protagonist Naija:


Well the little pixel version you play with is kind of cute but when they give you a more detailed image of Naija she's decidedly plain and in some cases unattractive. A man isn't the motivating factor behind the story, and the concept of being good/bad is never really a factor.
 

stormeris

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Aug 29, 2011
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I don't care what you say, Jim.

I'd still tap Vertigo.
There's probably a lot of r34 of her, since this video xD

On a more serious note, i totally agree. There just isn't any variety in female game protagonists, it's always the same!
I don't mind beautiful women, mind you, but seriously, we need at least SOME VARIETY in our games :D
 

Dragonbums

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uanime5 said:
A documentary covering the views of many people is far more informative than your view based solely on your own experiences.
The documentary focused on how women are more likely to be sociable and the OP somehow equated that to meaning that women are biologically created to like princesses by default.

Given that most parents ask their children what they want it's far more likely that parents bought their child a particular toy because their child wanted this toy. This can easily be confirmed by asking children about their toys.
Since you are so quick to shut me up by saying "your views don't reflect other people" you got a source for that? Especially when I just mentioned that if a girl grew up being shown that girls her age like dolls, then she will be more inclined to ask for a doll even though that may or may not be what she really wants. You know, social influence?

Just because you don't like reality doesn't make it wrong.
And the reality is is that girls liking dolls is more of a social construct. Not a genetic one.
I'll tell you one reality though. You entire argument is riddled with holes.

Girls like princesses and dolls because girls are genetically programmed to like these toys.
citation needed

Genetically programmed by who? Fucking aliens?
Because there is literally zero benefits either genetically, or in the wilderness for a human of the female sex to be attracted to plastic material constructs that resemble a monarchy political figure head.


That's why female chimps have the same preferences even though they've never been exposed to the mass media which you claim is somehow brain washing girls.
citation needed

Secondly I never said brainwashed. I said influenced. Don't put words in my mouth to supplement your ridiculous conclusion.

Thirdly, I find it insulting that you are going to put a complex human being, on the same level of a female chimp to get your point across.

Next thing you'll be telling me is that wolves are more inclined to protect babies, and anything that acts like their pups therefore it's the reason why humans have the ability to care for other peoples' young.

Boys were never attracted to pink
And what do you have to back that up?

even if baby clothes for boys were pink 100 years ago. the main evidence for this is that boys didn't wear pink when they were children or adults.
Take a look at a Renaissance painting. Guarantee you'll find one young strapping chap in there that wore pink back in the day.
Your defense is laughable because even today there are plenty of men and woman who don't wear the arbitrary pink and blue clothes that their parents made them wear as kids.

Citation needed.
Learn to get a joke.

What you've failed to realise is that not everyone in this racial group will experience this the same way. Thus it's misleading for you to claim that your experiences reflect the experiences of everyone else in this group.
And it is equally misleading to state that it is a scientific fact that girls are genetically attracted to dolls. I'm sorry, but if you are going to present something as fact, then it is YOU not me that has to prove that wrong. Considering how a number of women on the Escapist already called the OP out on this ridiculous conclusion then it stands to reason that before you go shouting things out as "facts" you best damn well know what the difference between scientific fact and social observation.

Studies on toddlers
Unless these toddlers were ass naked and living in forests with no contact with the outside world for the majority of their 5 year existence, since the moment they are born they are given either blue or pink clothing depending on gender, and baby toys that lean towards cool or cute. Take a one second glance at the boys and girls isles of Babies R Us and you can already see the societal influence prevalent before the kids even know there is a difference in gender.

and chimp, who haven't been exposed to the mass media, show these same preferences so they're clearly not social constructs. You've also failed to explain why the same patterns are observed in countries where the mass media isn't telling people which toys go with which gender. Face it people like these things because men and women are genetically programmed to like different things and just because you don't like this doesn't make it wrong.
Mass media is not regulated to just television commercials and magazine ads.Mass media is simply another aspect of social construct. Word of mouth and expectations also fall into that category. Something that many third world countries rely on a lot more than television, radio, and printed press. They can be passed down traditions and expectations from grown ups that the children live around.
Why has it been up until the recent century that every woman had to wear a dress? Because social construct of thousands of years dictates that that is what women wear. Those women grow up and pass that on to their kids that girls wear dresses and boys wear pants.

No. The very moment you say something like girls like dolls because its a scientifically proven that the female sex is hardwired to a doll then you have to me, and every other girl who didn't really give a shit about dolls either. Why them not caring about dolls is not a matter of preference, but rather is the fact that they are somehow a genetic anomaly
Because if someone doesn't fit into a "scientific, genetic fact" then that means those outliers are in some way shape or form genetic mutations

Which isn't exactly something you want to be calling those people now would you?
 

Havoc Himself

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Dec 21, 2010
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So Jim you basically are asking for just an amazing, near perfect female character here, kind of a tall order honestly. We don't get a lot of good characters in Video Games, let alone amazing ones even on the male side. Honestly I think the whole thing has less to do with gender issues altogether and more to do with the fact that most games just have really shitty writing.
 

Deadagent

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Sep 14, 2011
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Fistful of Ebola said:
Deadagent said:
So all opposition you is not only men, but men who are lying about their gender?
I didn't accuse them of lying, I said they all used the same tactic. Which is to feign outrage at the implication they're male.
So it's a tactic to be pissed when you assume someones gender only based on the fact that they disargee with you?

You know, perhaps it is insulting that no woman can oppose these views. That might be a reason people get pissed off at you.

Fistful of Ebola said:
None of the reptilians in favor of Illuminatis standards on The Escapist will admit to being reptilian, I never really buy into that.
The difference being that misogynists exist and that men exist in pretty large numbers. I'm unwilling to believe that near every person I've argued with on the Escapist about sexism in gaming, quite a few, is actually a woman.
You misunderstood me. I was talking about the type of mentality that this specific line has.
The type of "If you're not with me on this then you are allied with the enemy" mentality.
Also the line "I never really buy that" speaks volumes about how incomprehinsible it is for you to consider that anyone with a vagina could possibly disagree with you.

You are acting like a conspiracy theorist. That is all.
And yeah Misogynist men do exist, as do Misandrist women.
In both cases they're a minority that is dying out.