Jimquisition: Vertigo

TheUnbeholden

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What about No One Lives Forever, the female protagonist was pretty much like the non-sexist Female version of James Bond.
 

NSGrendel

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I loved the Primal Rage coin-op when I was at university and Vertigo was my favourite character. Did NOT know it was female though. Lack of dino-boobs I suppose.
 

Genji Bullet

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Npu8xQDxS4
There is whole genre out there, we barely even know anything about, filled with everything the feminists whine about that are lacking in video games...
 

Rebel_Raven

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RolandOfGilead said:
Dollface, Twisted Metal
You mean the model with a small scar on her face that she sees as a massive disfigurement, and wears a doll mask to compensate? And maintains a model's figure the whole time?

Yeah, she doesn't really meet Jim's criteria, IMO.
 

Caelbain

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Lightknight said:
Wall of Text
Alrigth, I don't really want to jump and down for every issue, so I'm going to try and condense my views towards pretty much all of this in as little text as possible.


Now, when I say I want tough women, I don't mean I want them to look manly. Because I want myself and the entire world to get away from the idea that strength = manly. It might make sense biologically, but it also makes us think that men have to be strong and women have to be weak, which is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy in my opinion. Because of this, men in real life and fiction often feel like they HAVE to be strong while women are almost afraid to be. In the very least, most at least do not want to look like it.


And now, we have a medium where women and men are not limited by biology in any way, so this would be a perfect opportunity to make some pushes towards equality. People feel bad about fighting women, even when they're in power armor, making the strength argument moot? (Hell, even guns kind of make brute strength a questionable advantage by now) Well, that's perfect! It gets you an emotional reaction and challanges the player.

Games are art, and I believe that it is an obligation of the arts to challange the mindset of people. Always giving them what they want is never going to advance our society.


Aside from that, with female villains, I meant protagonists, not antagonists. There are quite a few female antagonists, but I honestly can't think of a female lead who is a villain in... any media. (As in: THE main character, not just the main character's enemy)
Scarred and ugly women aren't in demand. And that's why the arts should push towards their acceptance.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Genji Bullet said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Npu8xQDxS4
There is whole genre out there, we barely even know anything about, filled with everything the feminists whine about that are lacking in video games...
Yeah, that is an interesting Vid. Kinda weird that this genre's almost entirely, if not entirely absent on consoles. Even in the indie area of PSN, it seems. It's definitely a start, but it's not the answer in and of itself. These games need to be better known, and the writers need to get hired as writers for other stuff, IMO.

This is a great vid, though.
 

GryffinDarkBreed

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Because it couldn't also be said that the gaming industry isn't also saying that "Only men are disgusting, ugly, horrible murdering, raping, thieving monsters" by only portraying men in these roles....

Oh wait, it could.

Love your attention to sad, sad non-issues, Jim. Keep it up.
 

Caelbain

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GryffinDarkBreed said:
Because it couldn't also be said that the gaming industry isn't also saying that "Only men are disgusting, ugly, horrible murdering, raping, thieving monsters" by only portraying men in these roles....

Oh wait, it could.

Love your attention to sad, sad non-issues, Jim. Keep it up.
I think Jim actively picks issues that he knows are controversial amonst the (hightech) gaming community. And I doubt issue with the portrayel of men would get many arguing and discussing responses, because a dominating share of hightech gamers are male. And people are selfish beings, who are much more likely to agree with there being a problem, if the problem is connected with the group they consider themselves part of.

Also, Jim has never denied that there are problems with the depiction of men [See "Objectification of Men"], he just doesn't talk about them.... at all, if I remember correctly. For the reason I believe to be, what I stated above.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I am a huge fan of Sterling and though I do not always agree with him I find many of his insights well formulated. However, this specific topic irritated me. All I could think of while watching the video was who cares ? Women do not care because a large percentage of them do not play games. Sterling once brought up this statistic that 50% of games are played by women -- but what does that mean ? Mobile games ? Board games ? Bejeweled ? Publishing companies are not stupid, they have a profile ready of who will play which game as soon as a game idea is presented to them. As more and more women play games, more will aspire to work in the game industry, and poof your problem should be fixed.

Gender issues in games is being beaten to death. There are other issues that are not being examined. How almost any Asian must know martial arts in games, how middle easterners are always terrorists in shooters, or how there are no games out of Japan that feature Black protagonists (even the ones from Japan that are meant for Western audiences).
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I also just want to add one thing. Instead of so much attention toward what games are missing why do we not also give some attention to what games provide -- a vibrant community and sub culture.

For example, my wife is in to Metal music and this is genre dominated by white male fans and performers (not to mention racism and sexism is present in some areas). Yet, she considers herself to be a hard core Metal head because ultimately her appreciation for the music and the community supersedes any need to be represented. I feel the same about games. People do not need to see themselves reflected in the games they are playing for them to be emotionally engaged with it. Not to mention that being a gamer you are connected to a range of people of diverse background yet you want to engage with them because you share an appreciation for games.

Identifying the dismal ratio of unattractive to attractive women in games is something to be aware of, but not something I would call an 'issue' in games.
 

Rebel_Raven

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liquid_hokaji said:
I also just want to add one thing. Instead of so much attention toward what games are missing why do we not also give some attention to what games provide -- a vibrant community and sub culture.

For example, my wife is in to Metal music and this is genre dominated by white male fans and performers (not to mention racism and sexism is present in some areas). Yet, she considers herself to be a hard core Metal head because ultimately her appreciation for the music and the community supersedes any need to be represented. I feel the same about games. People do not need to see themselves reflected in the games they are playing for them to be emotionally engaged with it. Not to mention that being a gamer you are connected to a range of people of diverse background yet you want to engage with them because you share an appreciation for games.

Identifying the dismal ratio of unattractive to attractive women in games is something to be aware of, but not something I would call an 'issue' in games.
But Jim has given attention to what we have. What we have is a lack of female protagonists, and the roles these females take part in. Sad fact of the matter is that's the truth. Guys may lack in roles, but they certainly don't lack for number.

Personally, I feel it's alienating. That's what I get out of this "sub culture," and "vibrant community" who an obnoxious few want to keep it alienating.

Ever ask your wife if she'd want to play as any of the women in the game? If she wants to play as a woman from time to time? What's her opinion? Then again, asking this might lead her down the path some of us have taken where we take issue with the lack we have so much abundance of.

Never underestimate the power of incusiveness. We may not need such close relatability, but guys almost always get that fundamental relatability of gender so it's easy for them to play as a woman now and then, and generally be comfortable in the skin of the protagonist. It's more important than most think to even have a basic relatability. Women rarely get it, and when they do these women generally have shallow lives that do little to stray from point a to point b in the game's plot. There's almost never a love interest, almost never any options. It's harder to relate to tem as they generally don't have lives, but there's that basic relatability, and the chance that the writing has a woman's point of view.

It's easy to talk positively about what you have that's good when you have it, and have a steady supply of it, but what about those that don't get it often, and have to worry about the supply they'll get?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Rebel_Raven said:
liquid_hokaji said:
I also just want to add one thing. Instead of so much attention toward what games are missing why do we not also give some attention to what games provide -- a vibrant community and sub culture.

For example, my wife is in to Metal music and this is genre dominated by white male fans and performers (not to mention racism and sexism is present in some areas). Yet, she considers herself to be a hard core Metal head because ultimately her appreciation for the music and the community supersedes any need to be represented. I feel the same about games. People do not need to see themselves reflected in the games they are playing for them to be emotionally engaged with it. Not to mention that being a gamer you are connected to a range of people of diverse background yet you want to engage with them because you share an appreciation for games.

Identifying the dismal ratio of unattractive to attractive women in games is something to be aware of, but not something I would call an 'issue' in games.
But Jim has given attention to what we have. What we have is a lack of female protagonists, and the roles these females take part in. Sad fact of the matter is that's the truth. Guys may lack in roles, but they certainly don't lack for number.

Personally, I feel it's alienating. That's what I get out of this "sub culture," and "vibrant community" who an obnoxious few want to keep it alienating.

Ever ask your wife if she'd want to play as any of the women in the game? If she wants to play as a woman from time to time? What's her opinion? Then again, asking this might lead her down the path some of us have taken where we take issue with the lack we have so much abundance of.

Never underestimate the power of incusiveness. We may not need such close relatability, but guys almost always get that fundamental relatability of gender so it's easy for them to play as a woman now and then, and generally be comfortable in the skin of the protagonist. It's more important than most think to even have a basic relatability. Women rarely get it, and when they do these women generally have shallow lives that do little to stray from point a to point b in the game's plot. There's almost never a love interest, almost never any options. It's harder to relate to tem as they generally don't have lives, but there's that basic relatability, and the chance that the writing has a woman's point of view.

It's easy to talk positively about what you have that's good when you have it, and have a steady supply of it, but what about those that don't get it often, and have to worry about the supply they'll get?

I agree and you make a good point; people want to feel that games are being made for them in mind, and I think that lack of diversity will only hurt the community and games themselves. Hey, I am annoyed that the issues of sexism and racism are not being explored more in games, because games are a medium that can be used to put people in the shoes of some one dealing with those issues.

However, there are some things that should be taken in to consideration. For a player to feel represented that game simply can not have a character model that looks like them but that game has to have a story (this is why if I bring up a million characters like Ms. Pacman -- it does nothing for the underlying issue). For many games story is simply not a significant component and thus most people are not going to relate them or even want to be represented by them. I think a games developer motivation for making their protagonist in a game, that is not story driven, a white male is a lazy default. For example, Mario is a white Italian plumber and I doubt that white Italian people feel represented, but a white Italian male may feel better represented by playing as a white Italian protagonist in a game that is story driven. I think the same works for women and minorities, they need more than just a character model.

Another thing is that many games where story is pivotal to the game have character creating features. So, those games are side stepping this whole issue altogether.
 

Rebel_Raven

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liquid_hokaji said:
Rebel_Raven said:
liquid_hokaji said:
I also just want to add one thing. Instead of so much attention toward what games are missing why do we not also give some attention to what games provide -- a vibrant community and sub culture.

For example, my wife is in to Metal music and this is genre dominated by white male fans and performers (not to mention racism and sexism is present in some areas). Yet, she considers herself to be a hard core Metal head because ultimately her appreciation for the music and the community supersedes any need to be represented. I feel the same about games. People do not need to see themselves reflected in the games they are playing for them to be emotionally engaged with it. Not to mention that being a gamer you are connected to a range of people of diverse background yet you want to engage with them because you share an appreciation for games.

Identifying the dismal ratio of unattractive to attractive women in games is something to be aware of, but not something I would call an 'issue' in games.
But Jim has given attention to what we have. What we have is a lack of female protagonists, and the roles these females take part in. Sad fact of the matter is that's the truth. Guys may lack in roles, but they certainly don't lack for number.

Personally, I feel it's alienating. That's what I get out of this "sub culture," and "vibrant community" who an obnoxious few want to keep it alienating.

Ever ask your wife if she'd want to play as any of the women in the game? If she wants to play as a woman from time to time? What's her opinion? Then again, asking this might lead her down the path some of us have taken where we take issue with the lack we have so much abundance of.

Never underestimate the power of incusiveness. We may not need such close relatability, but guys almost always get that fundamental relatability of gender so it's easy for them to play as a woman now and then, and generally be comfortable in the skin of the protagonist. It's more important than most think to even have a basic relatability. Women rarely get it, and when they do these women generally have shallow lives that do little to stray from point a to point b in the game's plot. There's almost never a love interest, almost never any options. It's harder to relate to tem as they generally don't have lives, but there's that basic relatability, and the chance that the writing has a woman's point of view.

It's easy to talk positively about what you have that's good when you have it, and have a steady supply of it, but what about those that don't get it often, and have to worry about the supply they'll get?

I agree and you make a good point; people want to feel that games are being made for them in mind, and I think that lack of diversity will only hurt the community and games themselves. Hey, I am annoyed that the issues of sexism and racism are not being explored more in games, because games are a medium that can be used to put people in the shoes of some one dealing with those issues.

However, there are some things that should be taken in to consideration. For a player to feel represented that game simply can not have a character model that looks like them but that game has to have a story (this is why if I bring up a million characters like Ms. Pacman -- it does nothing for the underlying issue). For many games story is simply not a significant component and thus most people are not going to relate them or even want to be represented by them. I think a games developer motivation for making their protagonist in a game, that is not story driven, a white male is a lazy default. For example, Mario is a white Italian plumber and I doubt that white Italian people feel represented, but a white Italian male may feel better represented by playing as a white Italian protagonist in a game that is story driven. I think the same works for women and minorities, they need more than just a character model.

Another thing is that many games where story is pivotal to the game have character creating features. So, those games are side stepping this whole issue altogether.
I can certainly agree that strength of character, plot, and so forth are extremely important, but there's very little that replaces the joy of playing as a female character. I'd rather play a bland woman than a bland guy by miles, and miles, and believe me, most male protagonists are bland to me.
It'd take a game that makes me curious, and interested enough to stand head and shoulders over the rest to make me consider playing a guy these days. Very rarely do these games happen.

Moreover, having to buy games carefully as my luxury budget, and time gaming are pretty limited means every purchase is pretty important.

Yeah, story can justify the gender of the protagonist, but that doesn't justify a lack of stories that center around a female protagonist. Pretty much every last woman we've ever played as was written by a guy. So many women in other media like movies, books, and TV are written by men.
One gender can and often does write for the other gender.