Jimquisition: Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

Jimothy Sterling

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Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

The Xbox One no longer enforces restrictions on used games, but the debate over console DRM is not over. One lingering question is this -- why are consoles criticized, but PC gets away with it?

Watch Video
 

Canadamus Prime

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Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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You gotta fight,
For your Right,
To Digitaaaaaaaaaaaaaal Management!


Also because a lot of gamers are horny adolescents: They can't wait to jump XXXbones.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
 

Calibanbutcher

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

The Xbox One no longer enforces restrictions on used games, but the debate over console DRM is not over. One lingering question is this -- why are consoles criticized, but PC gets away with it?

Watch Video

Competition is good for consumers?
*GASP*
HERESY
MONOPOLIES WILL BRING US FULLFILMENT AND ENLIGHTEN US ALL, STOP THIS CONFUSING NONSENSE ABOUT "CHOICE" AND "BENEFITTING THE CONSUMER".


Also: Jim, you wanna take part in one of the next "failcasts"?
 

mike1921

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.
Are you sur you can't just use your steam account elsewhere? I know it's added contrivance but you can still install from disk too with steam so you don't need to download it, so I'm pretty sure you can have it on someone else's computer.
 

Andy Shandy

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Yeah, it astounds me that people are seeing PC Gaming as getting away with it.

Still, a good video Jim, even if I am baffled by it's apparent necessity.
 

franksands

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canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Hear, Hear. I miss the times of old SNES, where you would just pop in the cartridge and play. No loading times, no bullshit.
 

LaochEire

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I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
 

Deacon Cole

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Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
 

Charli

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Oh...I thought it was obvious too...I just assumed everyone decrying it was hired by Microsoft and had since plugged my ears to it. Oh well, thanks for clearing it up for the lemmings Jim.

LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Steam is really for people who don't buy on release anyway I find. No one I know does. We're all old and decrepit and don't have the time in our lives to play games on day 1 or even WEEK 1. :p

Also Skyrim was going for cheaper on the PC than the consoles on day one. That was a thing. :)
Got it for 20 quid.

So it really depends on the pressure from the publisher/developer, they decide for steam, not the other way around, then when steam is given the go ahead for a pricecut/sale, they tend to do it.
 

Doom972

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I was hoping he would make a video about it. I gave up on explaining it on forums. Now I can just link to this video.

Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
As a supporter of Steam (maybe even a fan), I do agree that Steam exclusivity is bad for us, and that the retail option should remain. Sadly, it seems that publishers won't release a game on the PC without some anti-piracy measure, and Steam seems to be the most consumer-friendly that they'll accept.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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mike1921 said:
Andy of Comix Inc said:
I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.
Are you sur you can't just use your steam account elsewhere? I know it's added contrivance but you can still install from disk too with steam so you don't need to download it, so I'm pretty sure you can have it on someone else's computer.
Oh. Actually, I'm thinking about more sharing between multiple people, not just installing on multiple computers.
 

Okysho

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You know Jim, I used to not like you when you got started.

Now I've been following you through this whole XBone thing. Thanks for showing the people who didn't get it, why they should be pissed (though there were no shortage of angry people) I mean that in earnest, I misjudged you, and I feel that was in err on my part.

Thank god for you Jim, keep fighting the good fight.

Now I'm gonna go through your video back log...

Captcha: miles to go - damned right captcha... damned right...
 

Scars Unseen

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Dunno. Maybe it's different on the other side of the Atlantic. In my case, the only games I can count on seeing in store on release day are those made by Blizzard and those with the words "of Duty" in the title. Amazon takes a week to get stuff shipped over here, so if I want something on release day, digital is my only option.
 

PunkRex

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canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Me to, I REALLY miss backwards compatability... I also have no experience with gaming PC's so I found this vid quit informative, thanks Jim.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
I've just stopped buying games that don't allow for that.
I think one of the better pure console experiences nowadays is PS Vita with it's cartridges.
 

Scars Unseen

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
mike1921 said:
Andy of Comix Inc said:
I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.
Are you sur you can't just use your steam account elsewhere? I know it's added contrivance but you can still install from disk too with steam so you don't need to download it, so I'm pretty sure you can have it on someone else's computer.
Oh. Actually, I'm thinking about more sharing between multiple people, not just installing on multiple computers.
Well yeah, you aren't really supposed to do that. Never were. There just wasn't really anything stopping people until authentication came into play.
 

Arcade Hero X

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
 

J Tyran

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Not sure if thats a Republic of Ireland thing, sometimes you can pick up a retail copy of a game cheaper than Steam in the UK. It depends but usually the prices are much of a muchness, they float between the £25-35 at places like Amazon and the same on Steam. Steam titles are often £5 cheaper if you pre-order, you can see them jump from £30 to £5 after release.

Forget the game specialist retail chains though, they don't even bother stocking PC games most the time. Sometimes they will get a copy if you pre-order, then they demand a deposit for the privilege. So instead of making it cheaper by pre-ordering I have to hand cash over before I even get the game.
 

Holythirteen

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Ah, now there's a good Jim, at least I have a handy reference for when this argument pops up again.

Man these consoles are becoming tricky things now. Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.

LaochEire said:
Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
You didn't mention which titles, specifically. Or your geographic location. But to those you can probably blame the publisher. If they have a console release for the same game, Gamestop tightens the vices on their nutbags and won't allow them to undercut their prices, regardless of what platform that version is for.

Also, Steam is still somehow obligated to screw over Australian consumers, I tried researching why and I still don't get it, but a friend in another country may be able to purchase the game in their location and "gift" you the code. That's a thing. (Stupid but yeah....)
 
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canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Yeah, that's why I've moved back to playing on the PC. At least I can get the benefits of PC gaming along with the bullshit, where now with consoles it's the bullshit of PC gaming without any of the benefits.

How I play PS2 games: Put disk in tray, play.

How I play PS3/360 games: Update console, put disk in tray, update game, play.

How I play PC games: Install/download it, update it, faff about to get it to work (not always needed, though), play.
 

Charli

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
mike1921 said:
Andy of Comix Inc said:
I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.
Are you sur you can't just use your steam account elsewhere? I know it's added contrivance but you can still install from disk too with steam so you don't need to download it, so I'm pretty sure you can have it on someone else's computer.
Oh. Actually, I'm thinking about more sharing between multiple people, not just installing on multiple computers.
Rumors are that steam are developing that feature. I'm glad because then my family can play my games from my steam account. If they do this, I'm not even considering a console anymore. Too much of a waste. The only thing handicapping my PC exclusivity is not being able to share/play with my family.
 

Doom972

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Personally, I don't buy most of my games on release. I just wait for sales, and get it for much cheaper than in any store in my country. It usually takes about half a year for a AAA game to get a sale, but I'm usually in no rush to get a game. If I do want to get a game on day 1, I might preorder physical a special edition, unless Steam has a much better offer.

Many countries don't have PC games at the low prices that you described - especially on day 1. Here in Israel, games usually cost x1.5 of their US price.
 

Zombie_Moogle

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
It's my understanding that publishers require that they set the prices in various regions as part of their distribution contract with Valve.

It had something to do with trade tariffs when it came to physical copies, but the publishers require the prices stay jacked up despite the lack of international shipping costs because... reasons
 

Dragonbums

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Geez. It had to take Jim of all people to make folks fucking get it.

On that note, I don't think PC will ever take over videogame playing, but if consoles continue to do what Microsoft is doing it will be even more marginalized then before.

Especially when you have to consider that even though everyone has a computer, not everyone has a computer good enough to do any sort of heavy gaming.
For instance, I have a 7 year old laptop. Yes a laptop.
It can handle Mass Effect 1 and 2, Skyrim, Oblivion, and TF2. With the exception of TF2, I have to put all the other games at the lowest possible settings in terms of loading and graphics.
For me, that is perfectly fine. All I care about is the game I paid for works.
However for PC gaming enthusiasts on the Escapist this would be unacceptable, and this is where the problem is.
With a console all I have to do is buy the damn thing, put the CD in, and play the game, and I would be guaranteed an above average visual experience and decent gameplay.

However for a lot of people, yes, they have a computer, but think about how many people have OLD PC's. Desktops that are a whooping 9 years old, and are still present because as far as the owner is concerned- it gets it's daily jobs done.
Compared to here, they would have to spend quite a bit of money replacing their system, and updating it to something on par with a professional gaming PC.
And don't talk to me about "It's cheap to build your own PC" yeah it is, but it will be a real headache for anyone who isn't well versed in the inner workings of a PC.

Call me ignorant, call me dumb, I will not deny that I can hardly follow this GDDDR5 whatever the fuck it's called AX1000 I don't know what the fuck I'm saying nonsense. All I know is that computers have RAM, CPU, video cards, motherboard, and a graphics card. That's fucking it.

Like hell I'm going to try my hand at building a PC, when I don't even know which is what, and how much does it matter. Not only that I like to be knowledgeable about the things I buy. How do I know the person recommending all of this to me saying it makes good components for PC gaming is lying out of their ass just to get me to buy those components?
That's what the average consumer will think.
Which again is why they simply BUY an expensive PC, or go with a console that you don't have to worry about that.
 

Dragonbums

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
I honestly guess it's just the region you are in. Which really sucks.
I literally got Skyrim last year for $30.00 on Steam during their sales as opposed to $60.00 at retail.
 

kajinking

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PunkRex said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Me to, I REALLY miss backwards compatability... I also have no experience with gaming PC's so I found this vid quit informative, thanks Jim.
That is one of the better parts of PC, I can install and play games from 10+ years ago on my system without having to do much.

I don't have my PS2 around the house but want to play GTA:SA? Download the PC version and get playing within 5 minutes!

Gaming PCs seem scary as hell when you first get them and get into them (I was terrified the first time I had to pop the case open to deal with something inside) but once you get the hang of it it's not all that badf.
 

Griffolion

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LaochEire said:
I think the video articulates many reasons as to why Steam (and other services) are so good. I've never seen a Steam title undercut by one in the store that isn't on some sort of pre-agreed deal, or as part of a trade-in (how ironic) deal. The worst I ever see is that the prices are always on par for week one releases. And, aside from major titles (most notably the CoD titles), Steam will drop prices quickly or put them into a sale quickly.

But, as Jim said, if you don't like Steam, then just use GoG or GMG. That's the beauty of PC gaming. One machine, many services competing for your money.
 

GAunderrated

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Irridium said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Yeah, that's why I've moved back to playing on the PC. At least I can get the benefits of PC gaming along with the bullshit, where now with consoles it's the bullshit of PC gaming without any of the benefits.

How I play PS2 games: Put disk in tray, play.

How I play PS3/360 games: Update console, put disk in tray, update game, play.

How I play PC games: Install/download it, update it, faff about to get it to work (not always needed, though), play.
Small nit pick on the PC side, when you install/download it does the update for you. You don't download a game than it updates, it does the update while downloading/installing.

The whole need to tweak a PC for a game is very rare in my case. I can only think of 2 games I had to personally tweak to get it to run. I believe that is because I NEVER buy games on launch so by the time I pick it up for cheap, all the problems are ironed out.

Really only the loyal customers who buy day 1 or week 1 are the ones who get screwed with buggy games and crap.
 

Miyenne

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I agree totally with Jim. I always do PC gaming over console if I have a choice, and I agree it has miles to go, it's still a lot more convenient than console gaming. For one, I can easily pick up my laptop and take it anywhere if I want to game. Sure, it's not as powerful as my PC, but my Steam account's on both and it's easy to use. I can't lug around a console and a television if I want to game. And all the other things Jim mentioned.

I get where people are coming from otherwise, too. In the basest sense, we're crying out that DRM is evil, and yet we accept it so easily when it comes to PC. Jim explained everything well, but I do get that it is, on a level, hypocritical.

But why Jim were you so hostile? Usually I adore you, and yes you're normally hostile but generally that anger is well deserved. This time even I felt slightly offended, though I agree with you completely. You were kinda patronizing.
 

themilo504

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Hooray for the pc master race.

People rag on steam and valve? Didn?t know that.

I?m still rather worried what would happen if valve where to ever go bankrupt, having most of my games vanish one day is a scary idea that keeps me up at night.
 

Vicioussama

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My big issue with Steam is that you don't own your game. That's why I love GOG.com. That's my biggest problem with Steam.

As for the Used Game bit? I wish people would bring up more about how Used Games are beneficial to the consumer not just for allowing a cheaper version of the game, but also encouraging devs and publishers to create new content for a game AFTER its release so people are less likely to sell the game back (making it a part of the used market if it was sold back). and giving more content to the user. Seems good for us. Yes, some games just cut content from the game originally and make it day 1 DLC, but we should stop buying from anyone who does such *coughCapcomcough* until they stop. Or work at pushing laws that bans such in our country (fat chance with the US being controlled by corporations). But even then, most DLC is created after the game's development with new content in mind.
 

GonzoGamer

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For someone who's been playing video games for as long as I have (for about as long as they've been around) I hope you kids appreciate the irony...actually, absurdity, that PC gaming has become the bastion of hope for gamers that want less extra bs with their gaming.

Yea, Jim shouldn't have had to make this video. But I'm glad he did because, if you look at the game forum, some people still seem confused on the subject.
Ever since my family started buying computers with color screens, I've always had a gaming pc in my home. I like consoles but I tend to skip a generation here and there. This upcoming one might be skipable. Even the console I would've gone with added a fee for playing online. So even if I do end up getting a ps4 down the road (they better have a bunch of mind blowingly amazing exclusives; far better than what they had this gen), I'm still going to get all my online multiplayer games for the pc.
 

DrOswald

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Over here in the United States most PC games are $10 cheaper than the console version and Steam almost always gives 10% off the title if you preorder as well as some preorder goodies. That is a savings for the average gamer of $15. In addition Steam will almost certainly have the earliest and best sales for any game. So buying games through Steam is often the cheapest possible method at release and later on.
 

medv4380

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The issue with returning digital games would be resolved if they supported trading and reselling games. If I buy a game that I think I want like Aliens Colonial Marines, and find out 10 min into playing that it's horrible. I should be able to resell it, but because resell isn't possible Steam is hammered with having to deal with returns. Same thing goes for Diablo 3, and Sim City. If you make a horrible game that sell 1 million copies on day 1 you're not going to make a single sale after that because of the flood of used copies, and that's how it should be.

Reselling has other benefits as well. These short easy mindless games will be hurt. If I can beat the game in 4 hours, and it has Zero replay value, then it's going to get resold pretty quick. Difficulty enhances replay ability if it's done right, and elongates play time without adding much more content. Once developers realize that making short games with no replay value isn't profitable, and never should have been, then they'll stop.

The Reason PC Software is exempt from the First Sale Doctrine Law is that back in the 90's it was obvious that allowing people to install MS Office on an offline machine didn't stop them from giving it to a friend or reselling it, but that the first person wasn't forced to uninstall in the process. The Right couldn't be extended to the 90's PC market because of the limitation of the system.

However, now we have DRM, and it is the very mechanism that should be allowing for used PC gaming, but it's not being used correctly.

On the other hand, Nintendo, with all their weirdness, honors the Right of First Sales for digital content, but with the catch of it travels with the system. If I sold my PS3 the digital content is staying attached to my login, but If I sold my Wii or Wii U the DLC goes with it.
 

SNCommand

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To be honest I think buying a physical copy for PC and having to go through Steam is bullshit, PC was for a time so high on the "PC gaming master race" that it totally missed that personal ownership was being pulled away from under their feet

But that doesn't make it any better when a console tries to pull the same shit, and like Jim said, on a console the problem would be infinitely worse than on a PC

The situation sucks, but that doesn't mean spreading it around is great
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

Is not insane, just crazy >:)
Jan 5, 2011
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Lord_Gremlin said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
I've just stopped buying games that don't allow for that.
I think one of the better pure console experiences nowadays is PS Vita with it's cartridges.
Effing ditto here. Just got my Vita recently and I was amazed at how easy things were to operate on it. I'm also playing Persona 4 Golden and having a hell of a time. I thought the touch screen would've been a hassle, but I've been liking it so much, it's left me with only one question...

How the hell do I clean it properly?
 

flarty

New member
Apr 26, 2012
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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
You do know that once you've installed a game on steam you can back it up to any number of sized files to fit across a number of discs?
 

Machine Man 1992

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Holythirteen said:
Ah, now there's a good Jim, at least I have a handy reference for when this argument pops up again.

Man these consoles are becoming tricky things now. Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?

Now granted with the next gen looking to make consoles into shitty PC's, instead of like Jim said and a staying slightly behind the curve, this argument may have some merit, but until that time where I no longer have to carry around a sticky note with my system specs written down when I go shopping, I'm staying console.

If consoles stay slightly behind the technology curve, then games are cheaper, developers don't have to sink millions into eye-fucking graphics, and consumers reap the rewards of convient, fun games. Nowadays, there's so much wasted money being thrown around, that publishers are terrified of the games not selling seven digits in a week.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Their conversion rates are notoriously pretty shite, though they are set by the publishers from what I understand.

It's mostly the sales. On launch, they'll match retail prices if the game has a physical disk, but they frequently have sales even for new games that can go up to half off what you would get in a store.

I think Amazon offers slightly better deals every so often, but that's about it.

OT: I always chuckle a little whenever people say Steam has a monopoly over PC gaming. Sure, it's the big titan, and even when you buy off of Amazon or in retail there's a chance you'll have to add the game to a Steam account to play it, but you really don't have to actually buy off of Steam to play on PC, and as mentioned in the video GOG offers DRM-free titles with practically no restrictions.

Though I have to say, I think it's a little disingenuous to complain about the lack of backwards compatibility when the PS2 was the first console to ever actually really do backwards compatibility in the first place. I mean, sure, Sony and Microsoft were both relative newcomers to the gaming industry and all, but Sega and Nintendo never did backwards compatibility (unless you count the Gameboy Color, I suppose) and before that it was just the Atari 7800--at least so far as official backwards compatibility built in to the base product is concerned. There have been a lot more consoles than there have been ones that were backwards compatible.
 

LaochEire

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Mar 9, 2010
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Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
 

Atmos Duality

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This video should be titled: "The differences between a proprietary system and a non-proprietary system"
Consoles are proprietary; you play only what the console maker allows, by their limitations. The honey of course, is that the console provides a streamlined experience with little muss and fuss.

And the Xbone wanted to do away with that. Oh sure, it claimed to offer that sort of experience, but with all the added DRM, herding and Market Fencing schemes, there was no way it could actually back that claim up.

And I just know some idiot is going to stumble into this thread raving about "B-b-b-b-BUT the Xbone offered us GAME SHARING! It was TEH FUTURE and you monsters KILLED IT with your misunderstanding! 90% game discounts! That's what you tossed away! Shame on you!"

While repeatedly failing to realize the numerous major assumptions one would have to make to realize that idealized scenario, and ignoring all drawbacks that come with that sort of system.

It's that sort of person that necessitated this video, Jim.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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GAunderrated said:
Irridium said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Yeah, that's why I've moved back to playing on the PC. At least I can get the benefits of PC gaming along with the bullshit, where now with consoles it's the bullshit of PC gaming without any of the benefits.

How I play PS2 games: Put disk in tray, play.

How I play PS3/360 games: Update console, put disk in tray, update game, play.

How I play PC games: Install/download it, update it, faff about to get it to work (not always needed, though), play.
Small nit pick on the PC side, when you install/download it does the update for you. You don't download a game than it updates, it does the update while downloading/installing.
Only on Steam. I primarily buy physical copies or from GoG because lol downloading modern games on my 80kb/s internet connection lol.

Though in GoG's case I don't need to update, which is nice.
 

Jenny Jones

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People still order on day 1 and pre-order?!?!

I stopped doing that when Diablo 3, Mass Errect 3 and a few others failed to live up to expectations while simultaneously costing the earth and requiring stupid restrictions...oh just remembered Battlefield 3, stupid web browser launcher tied to origins. So yeah if you want to buy 1st day steam is probably not the best, though a lot of the time you can pre-load so it's ready bang on the day without doing anything.
 

uncanny474

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead.
The solution to that is to have one account and share the password with your friends. If you hesitate to do so, (presumably because you're worried of what your friends will do to the reputation of that account), then it proves that Steam adds enough value to justify its DRM.

Since Steam allows you to install the game any number of times on any number of computers (with a few notable exeptions that, in my experience, seem to always be a developer choice; Borderlands' DLC is one of these, I think) it works even BETTER than the days when Fallout 3 was around and games could only EVER be installed on 3-4 PCs.
 

Hitchmeister

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
That's one shortcoming of Steam that only affects people overseas. Valve is bad at currency conversions. TB used to bring it up a lot more when he was living in England (and still does when talking about sales). All too often they will either have prices that don't line up very well by what currency you're using, or they don't bother to convert at all and you get silly things like 30 dollars = 30 pounds = 30 euros.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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LaochEire said:
Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
The answer is one word: Currency.

That's all there is to it; You don't transact in USD so you get (mildly) screwed.

I really don't understand what makes Valve price games so weirdly sometimes and some of the stuff I've seen just makes it even weirder... Just watch Total Biscuit's "Salebox" videos during a major sale event (like the upcoming summer sale) and you'll see what I mean.
-Sometimes the prices are all the same ($4.99, ?4.99, £4.99) so Europe/UK get shafted.
-Sometimes the UK gets a better deal ($19.99, ?19.99, £11.99).
-And sometimes the prices are pretty balanced ($14.99, ?12.49, £7.99)
 

Alar

The Stormbringer
Dec 1, 2009
1,356
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the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Thank you for linking me this! I've favorited one of this guy's videos for the future. >:3
 

WouldYouKindly

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Machine Man 1992 said:
Holythirteen said:
Ah, now there's a good Jim, at least I have a handy reference for when this argument pops up again.

Man these consoles are becoming tricky things now. Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?

Now granted with the next gen looking to make consoles into shitty PC's, instead of like Jim said and a staying slightly behind the curve, this argument may have some merit, but until that time where I no longer have to carry around a sticky note with my system specs written down when I go shopping, I'm staying console.

If consoles stay slightly behind the technology curve, then games are cheaper, developers don't have to sink millions into eye-fucking graphics, and consumers reap the rewards of convient, fun games. Nowadays, there's so much wasted money being thrown around, that publishers are terrified of the games not selling seven digits in a week.
Most of your arguments can be trumped by experience. Once you get good with a PC, you can make the thing dance to your whims. Also, if you spend any kind of decent money on a system, rest assured, it'll at least play everything, not on high, but it'll play everything. You can build a PC like that for about 500 bucks and save yourself some money by using an HDMI cable to use the tv you've already got as a monitor.

Also, something interesting is that having a new console generation with more powerful graphics hardware will actually lower the cost of making games. See, it's actually very very difficult to get the kind of performance out of outdated hardware that we tend to get. It's amazing how good Farcry 3 looks on the Xbox 360, given the specs of the 360. In order to do that takes a mountain of work and still have the engine deliver top tier graphical performance.
 

Petromir

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Consoles still have draconian DRM. Or has everybody forgotten MS and Sony bricking modded systems? No sign that has gone or is going anywhere on consoles. On the PC the worst they can do without a court is cancel your account. Which if you've pirated things shouldnt be a big issue to you....
 

Jimothy Sterling

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So on Counter-strike Global Offensive for PC a really kickass new expansion came out called operation payback. Big map pack and match system. The Price was $6, but hey guess what on day one steam had a sale. On day fucking one it was $2.99. So I bought it for me and my mate. Gueeees what? It notified me "hey since you already bought this you can buy another copy for your friends for $.50". 50 fucking cents.

So tell me what are the Call of duty 4 map packs priced now on my PS3 and xbox? $15? $20? For 4 fucking maps.

Oh and also you can invite friends to play Operation payback. They don't even have to own it.

OH GOD and guess why its called operation payback? BECAUSE THE MONEY GOES TO THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY WORKED ON THE FUCKING MAPS!
 

Tuppence870

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Apr 8, 2013
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Most of what Jim is saying is absolutely true, but Steam still has the power to pull a game from the market whenever it pleases.

For example, when Activision lost the rights to the James Bond 007 franchise, it pulled every Bond game from Steam, without warning and without refunds. I'm glad I chose to buy 007: Legends for my PS3, because I can obviously still play it, and it even still has servers running for online multiplayer.

Which brings me to the other thing that consoles have that PC never will. Split-Screen multiplayer was the feature that originally got me into gaming, with great titles like TimeSplitters 2 that were clearly optimised for it on the PS2.

Admittedly the increased workload that came with the PS3 generation of consoles began to see a reduction in this feature, but when it was there it was easily the highlight of the game. I can only imagine what how PS4 and Xbox One will further neglect this vital side of console gaming...

But remember that in order to have any kind of multiplayer on a PC, you need a second PC (and if Steam is involved, a second copy of the game), while on a console you only need a second controller - a much cheaper and more convenient investment.
 

lord.jeff

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Oct 27, 2010
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PC and console have both had problems and advantages but recently consoles have been trying to be more like computers and so far have only taken the bad of PC gaming and almost none of the good. I don't want i shit computer under my TV I want a gaming console that lets me just throw in a game and play no hassle, no passcodes or DRM with owned, burrowed and rented games. Consoles stop trying to be a PC I already have one not to mention my TV can do some of that stuff too.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
7,190
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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
I agree, I don't understand the pricing either and it's often a significant amount of time before the price becomes reasonable. Although I never buy new games from there and almost always buy from sales.

If PC was your only gaming platform, then I couldn't see buying from Steam being the best choice if you like playing games upon release.

Although a lot of that is a problem outside of the US. Steam often tends to convert directly from dollars into euro's and pounds, whereas retail games don't.
 

DarkhoIlow

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Dec 31, 2009
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I like PC gaming because:

- It's all digital, I don't need boxes over boxes of games (exception of Collector's Edition).

- MODS are awesome!

- Mouse & Keyboard precision and keybindings makes it best for my tastes when it comes to gaming.

- Backwards compatibility is the key here. The fact that I can play games like System Shock 2 on Windows 7 without any problems is amazing in my eyes. I really hope more old games will get a "compatibility" port on new OS's. It's impossible for me to play Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines on Win7 which saddens me greatly.

These are a few things why I'm sticking to PC gaming and don't even want to hear about getting a console. You can keep your exclusives.
 

1337mokro

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Thank you for that long extended blowjob Jim.

The PC master race is pleased with your continued service in our war against the peasant rebellion.
 

Entitled

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SNCommand said:
To be honest I think buying a physical copy for PC and having to go through Steam is bullshit, PC was for a time so high on the "PC gaming master race" that it totally missed that personal ownership was being pulled away from under their feet
Or rather, they signed an EULA that claimed to take away personal ownership from them, and then they all started singing "Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum", and proceeding to own the games that they have bought anyways.

Just as it was said in the video, by it's very nature of the platform's openness, a PC gamer will always have a lot more opportunity to continuing to own their games through fan-made cracks and patches, and emulators.
 

ScrabbitRabbit

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity
That reminds me, actually; with The Witcher 2 you wouldn't even need to know how to do that. The game comes with a serial code that you can use to get a free DD copy of the game from GOG. Since the disc version is also DRM-free, it can be resold... so it's entirely possible to download your free GOG copy and then sell your disc.

Would that qualify as piracy? It's certainly a dick move.
 

rembrandtqeinstein

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Sep 4, 2009
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I feel safe buying from steam because of thepiratebay and gamecopyworld. Because I know that if some dumbass corporate policy tried to screw me out of the things I bought I could give them the finger and get back MY property from these alternative locations.

Also mods. I have no idea how anyone can play a vanilla Bethesda RPG. They release great game engines with crappy games tacked on. Then the community fixes basic things like interface, balance and even textures. Since morrowind the best time to buy a bethesda game has consistently been about 18 months after release. You get the "game of the year" edition with all of the dlc AND the community has released an overhaul that seamlessly integrates the DLC content with the rest of the game, fixes bugs, makes it look prettier, and makes the game more fun.
 

Terramax

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The way I see it, Jim is going off on a tangent with this one.

We want to know why DRM is accepted on PCs more than consoles. Arguing that you have multiple sites to download games, at cheaper prices, than console equivalents doesn't justify DRM's existence on PC games. Isn't the lack of choice regarding where you buy your games a completely separate topic from the DRM case?

Not only that, Jim fails to address the point that many people still wish to own physical copies of their games. And if you are one of those people, Jim's separate topic he seems to discuss here goes out the window.

I would also like to point out that, contrary to what he seems to suggest in his video, I find physical copies of many games, brand new, on sites like Amazon, much cheaper than what I do on Steam. Which is why I've never bought a game on Steam.

Digital download games aren't always cheaper.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Consoles have DRM. In fact, they ARE DRM.

More to the point, though, I'd say the main reason Steam gets a "free pass" is because PC gamers sold their rights away ages ago. And no, Steam didn't get a free pass. People went into it kicking and screaming, and if they had kicked a little harder, there might not be a platform-wide DRM policy that's not only excused but fellated.

I know, I know, GOG, Amazon, etc, but many titles require Steamworks to operate, so I think that falls flat. I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well. Of course, we have primarily Gabe NEwell's word on that, so maybe he's PC gaming's Saddam Hussein, hiding in a hole while the coalition wrecks Baghdad and his radio guy announces that all is well.

I DON'T KNOW.

I think a lot of these excuses are just that. Excuses.

However, I also feel the "trade-off" argument is...Pretty valid. I mean, that was the give and take. We buy consoles for simplicity. We get fewer features as a result. That's a fair trade, and why I'm shifting away from consoles. Because if I have to patch games and install things and sign up for things...I might as well go to PC. Hell, I might as well go to Steam, where at least most titles do that smoothly.

Also, Jim touches upon one question we should always, always ask:

What's in it for me?

And, also, not exactly what Jim said, but PC gaming is evolving. Steam's lending or rental or whatever you want to call it is a step forward, where locking you in is a step back.



LaochEire said:
Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Quoted because I hope the next bit answers your question

Dragonbums said:
I honestly guess it's just the region you are in. Which really sucks.
I literally got Skyrim last year for $30.00 on Steam during their sales as opposed to $60.00 at retail.
Except a lot of the time, you can look and find the same prices on Amazon, either digital or e-tail. I honestly think people are too lazy to look for a deal these days, see a slashed price somewhere, and go AWESOME!

I buy from Steam sales, for the record, so I'm not saying they're bad. What I am saying is that it takes a few mouse clicks to compare other sources for the best price: a far cry from the days where you had to drive across town or maybe multiple towns. I don't get why someone would be so lazy.

Well, there's one exception: I understand the desire for a unified library. That doesn't mean that the sale prices are actually as noteworthy as phrased by so many.

I mean, I buy all my ebooks from the Kindle store. It's nice to be able to go to one site to redownload my books if I need to. I even enjoy the fact that they have routine deals. Are they the best prices? Not always, and it's best not to pretend such.

I don't know if, for example, you could have found Skyrim specifically for 30 dollars. I do know that I've found a lot of stuff on other sites at about the same price. Sometimes less.
 

LaochEire

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Legion said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
I agree, I don't understand the pricing either and it's often a significant amount of time before the price becomes reasonable. Although I never buy new games from there and almost always buy from sales.

If PC was your only gaming platform, then I couldn't see buying from Steam being the best choice if you like playing games upon release.

Although a lot of that is a problem outside of the US. Steam often tends to convert directly from dollars into euro's and pounds, whereas retail games don't.
I have never bought a game brand new from Steam. I always buy from Amazon or GS due to lower price. Also, games like Football Manager, Rome Total War 2 and Company of Heroes 2 will be mandatory when you buy retail copy so you get bonus of having Steam version as well.

I actually game mostly on PS3 now. The PSN sotre is far worse than anything Steam does since PSN doesn't account for income levels and standard of living across EU. Some games are 69.99. A friend of mine lives in Denmark and he says he pays that and more for games. In Ireland and UK we would never pay that for console game.

Moral of the story. Digital Distribution is not working for me on any platform and I'll continue to buy physical copy as it's far cheaper...And he was I think digital distribution would usher in a new age of cheaper games. Wasn't it suppose to do away with all that manufacturing, packaging and shipping costs adding to the price we pay for games?
 

SirCannonFodder

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
It's the same here in Australia; on release games on Steam are usually priced to match our RRP (but in USD, which is bullshit now that we're no longer at parity), which fails to take into account that retailers here usually price games at $2-$10 below RRP (sometimes more, eg when Dishonored came out, it was $80 on Steam, but JB HiFi [http://www.jbhifi.com.au/] and EB Games (our two biggest games sellers) had it at $69 and $68 respectively. Fortunately places like Green Man Gaming, Get Games, Gamersgate, etc usually have the games at US prices.
 

Bindal

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
mike1921 said:
Andy of Comix Inc said:
I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.
Are you sur you can't just use your steam account elsewhere? I know it's added contrivance but you can still install from disk too with steam so you don't need to download it, so I'm pretty sure you can have it on someone else's computer.
Oh. Actually, I'm thinking about more sharing between multiple people, not just installing on multiple computers.
Install it on multiple computers, let them all use the same account in offline-mode. TADAA! Everyone can play the game!
Obviously only works with games that don't need Steam to be online, but every Singleplayer and game that has local Coop/MP will work just fine and dandy.
 

The Artificially Prolonged

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Jul 15, 2008
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canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Same here, firmware updates are the reason my ps3 is for the large part gathering dust and only being used as a occasional Netflix box for the living room, but even doing that is more of a pain than it should be.

PS3: "Firmware update"
Me: "eh fine"
PS3: "Game patch."
Me: "oh come on"
*An hour later*
Me: "Sod it. I'll watch something on netflix instead"
PS3: "Netflix update."
Me: "FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"
 

MPZero

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most times when a game apears out on all platfoms i will go stright to the PC version... why you ask. Mod's the ability to mess around with the game more so than a console is just the added fun of them custome built maps the ability to not have to play the same 4-5 maps over and over till a "patch" now payd DLC updated them to something better i could boot something like CS:S and have a map playlist so big i wouldnt even play the same map 2s in a year of playing i boot up something like COD or BF and il be back on that map with in an hour at best

we might have lost the ability to trade games in and away but we got MUCH more back something consols cant do and probly will never beable to Mod Edit Fix and Keep.

thats my view on this that said i will probly pick up a PS4 for the exclusives not sure if il buy on Day 1 or wait half a year for the problems to be fixed (mostly) we will see
 

MB202

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Watching Jimqusition episodes make me even more puzzled but people who will eat up the bullshit like this is nothing. I'm STILL thinking of that GameStop employee I talked to who KNEW all the downsides to the Xbox One but honestly didn't care because he wanted the Halo TV series and other exclusives. Like he was willingly going to be Microsoft's *****. And when I brought up Diablo 3 and SimCity, he dismissed it as "oh games never work on the initial release date." YOU REALIZE THAT'S NOT GOING TO HELP YOU WIN ANY SALES YOU KNOW?! Not to mention, when I mentioned how I missed the days when you could just pop in a game and play it, he mentioned, in an equally dismissive voice, that that's not how it is anymore.

Well, he's right, it's not that way anymore... But unlike him, I'm NOT going to stand for it. It shouldn't have to be this way, God-dammit!

...That being said, Microsoft doing a 180 has made me consider getting an Xbox One... Eventually...
 

GAunderrated

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Irridium said:
GAunderrated said:
Irridium said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Yeah, that's why I've moved back to playing on the PC. At least I can get the benefits of PC gaming along with the bullshit, where now with consoles it's the bullshit of PC gaming without any of the benefits.

How I play PS2 games: Put disk in tray, play.

How I play PS3/360 games: Update console, put disk in tray, update game, play.

How I play PC games: Install/download it, update it, faff about to get it to work (not always needed, though), play.
Small nit pick on the PC side, when you install/download it does the update for you. You don't download a game than it updates, it does the update while downloading/installing.
Only on Steam. I primarily buy physical copies or from GoG because lol downloading modern games on my 80kb/s internet connection lol.

Though in GoG's case I don't need to update, which is nice.
Ah well in the case of physical copies yes you do need to update after installing.

I thought we were talking about digital downloads only.
 

Entitled

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ScrabbitRabbit said:
That reminds me, actually; with The Witcher 2 you wouldn't even need to know how to do that. The game comes with a serial code that you can use to get a free DD copy of the game from GOG. Since the disc version is also DRM-free, it can be resold... so it's entirely possible to download your free GOG copy and then sell your disc.

Would that qualify as piracy? It's certainly a dick move.
Well, that's just the thing. You don't even need to use any such dick moves. If you really want to play a game without compensating the publisher, it's easier to do actually do the normal, old-fashioned piracy, than to invent some special elaborate reinvented "digital used game system".

Anyone on the PC who is still choosing to pay to publishers for games, is doing it out of the goodness of their heart while the alternative would be just as simple.

The PC model is growing so much right now, because instead of focusing on control, and trying to killing used games for the sake of killing them, they have consolidated themselves with the fact that some games will be played without rewarding them anyways, but at least all the money from PC gamers' pockets is ending up with the industry.

I personally think that if you have $120, then spending all $120 on two of the games on Steam, and then pirating the third one, is less morally aceptable, than buying one $60 console game and two $30 used games from Gamestop.

In both cases, you played three games, spent $120. The only difference is in how much of that money was sent to developers, and how much of it to a redundant disc-circulating business.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
5,178
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Andy of Comix Inc said:
Oh. Actually, I'm thinking about more sharing between multiple people, not just installing on multiple computers.
You can actually do that, with single player/offline games at least.

A good friend of mine uses my Steam account to play games that I recommend that he's not interested enough in to pay for right out of the gate. It's actually really easy, just toss over the credentials and have them log in and download it, then go into offline mode as soon as it's done, and then you can both play whatever. The only issue with it is the validation emails that pop up occasionally, and that just requires forwarding a 6 digit code along within a few minutes.

Granted, it's not a perfect "anyone can play your games at any time" thing, but it's pretty close.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
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Machine Man 1992 said:
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?
My PC upgrade cost less than a PS4. The only things kept from my old build are the optical drive and processor. When I upgrade those, it'll cost about the same as a Bone. I probably could do it cheaper, but these are the specs I want. Except the processor, a regrettable cost-saving measure to be able to afford to eat this month.

It used to be somewhat true that gaming PCs were more fiscally intensive. It really hasnt'been true for years, though.

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?
Kind of moot with no BC from either Sony or Microsoft this gen.

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?
The problem with an unspoken guarantee is that it's only worth the breath spent on it.

Now granted with the next gen
You mean, the one that was being discussed?

Yes, there's some validity there.

but until that time where I no longer have to carry around a sticky note with my system specs written down when I go shopping, I'm staying console.
Which is more than fair.

ScrabbitRabbit said:
Would that qualify as piracy? It's certainly a dick move.
It's neither. They're making an offer you can freely take advantage of. I'm certain they calculated the risk before they did so.
 

RandV80

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Well if you're talking about used games I always like to point out that places like Gamestop started abandoning used PC games well before Steam became a big hit. Steam didn't kill PC gaming at retail, retail started abandoning PC in favour of console all on their own. PC gaming was on a pretty steep decline, and Valve/Steam stepped in to fill that void and along with other services like the Humble Indy Bundle and Good old Games completely resurrected it.

Personally I became a convert back when Empire: Total War was released. On release day I went to my local EB Games (Gamestop in Canada) to get it, and they didn't have it. Drove out to a further one, they also didn't have it and didn't know when they would. So I said **** em and bought it on Steam, haven't looked back since.
 

GAunderrated

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LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
 

grumpymooselion

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You forgot to mention that PC used games were barely ever a thing even prior to digital services like Steam. Back in the day, you'd see Console used games, but maybe - maybe - a tiny used PC gaming section with literal garbage in it, half of which wouldn't work. PC games in the used gaming market were so tiny, barely present, that when we saw something like Steam and it didn't allow resale of those digital games - we didn't notice a difference, because for all intents and purposes there was none. We'd never really had a PC used game market of any note prior, to the extent that in most stores it wasn't there at all. Steam changed nothing in regard to used games.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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i new a video store that rented computer games

Sona video...
It 3 shelfs worth.. and... mostly no one used it lol. (great store .. they have a neo geo section.. a 3d0.. a turbo graphics.. you should saw it.. sigh).
 

Lizardon

Robot in Disguise
Mar 22, 2010
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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Unfortunately like others have said it's a region thing most of the times. The publishers get to set their prices depending on the users location. Here in Australia the price of a new game on Steam will still cost the $80-$90 of the retail copy, although the price does tend to fall quicker. And some games have ridiculous price differences compared to the US. COD: Modern Warfare 2 is $89.99 (US price $19.99), Dead Space 2 is $69.99 (US price $19.99) and Medal of Honor is $69.99 (US price $19.99).

I recommend having a look at www.steamprices.com, which lets you compare the pricing in different regions, whenever the prices seem suspiciously high.
 

grumpymooselion

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Magog1 said:
i new a video store that rented computer games

Sona video...
It 3 shelfs worth.. and... mostly no one used it lol. (great store .. they have a neo geo section.. a 3d0.. a turbo graphics.. you should saw it.. sigh).
Back in the days before stores started axing their PC gaming sections entirely eh?

I've seen used PC game racks (tiny things that were always a mess) rarely over the years prior to Steam, but never enough to be of note. Now a rental service for PC games? That's about unheard of, and it's amazing you came across it at all, and given how some of the PC games worked back then I'm surprised it worked at all . . . though, given you said no one used it, it may not have worked at all, or not very well.

Sounds like it would have been a neat place to see though.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Heh. Steam is working hard to fix that but remember steam has more problems than you might realize. COnsider that games can be zoned for international regions and it would cause them no end of legal problems if someone bought a game or version of a game that was not allowed in their locality through steam.

There's also the fact that your steam purchases are only as secure as your steam account. The thing is, PC gives you like the ultimate level of backwards compatibility. Seriously thanks to Gog i can get games from 1985 running on my pc and with the right emulator you have access to entire console libraries. You don't get more backwards compatible than a PC.

COnsoles are basically removing backward compatibility so they can pretty much sell you the same stuff again. Granted not all digital distribution channels are equal. There's Origin. We shall speak no more of that. Steam is DRm but it's DRM that art least operates quietly and when it does pop up it usually pops up with something good. Gog has no DRM so yeah...there are options and options.
 

LaochEire

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GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Come over here, then. Steam undercuts retail by $10-$20, and prices fall fast.

You're living in the wrong place.

EDIT: Your above post says "GS Skyrim LE: 29.97"

Here, EBGames sells Skyrim (standard edition) for $60 still.
 

Amir Kondori

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
To be fair you CAN still do that. You just have to trust your account to those people. You have to sign in to Steam on that machine, have it remember your credentials, then download and install the game. Then put Steam in offline mode and there you go.
In fact, you could even change your password right after that and tell them "if you ever go out of offline mode then the games won't work but otherwise you're golden."
 

GAunderrated

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LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
 

LaochEire

New member
Mar 9, 2010
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0
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
I have over 100 games on Steam all bought during the sales. I'm just saying if I want to go out and buy COH 2, or any new game released I cannot get it on Steam because the price is anywhere between 10-20 euro in difference. Sometimes I don't feel like waiting 6 months to a 1 year to play a game I badly want to play.
 

grumpymooselion

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May 5, 2011
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I find it funny people say Gamestop undercuts Steam when most PC titles aren't ever sold at my local gamestops, outside of a very few AAA titles, there isn't a PC gaming section at all in any of the three gamestops near me. And, usually, the prices are that 59.99 new release price, which does drop, but doesn't ever seem to drop any faster than the Steam equivalents, and a random Steam sale consistently blows any rare price difference of the water when it happens, and Steam sales seem to happen quite a lot.

Even when my local gamestops do carry those AAA titles, there's never a rack for them, they're always hidden behind the counter - you have to ask for them specifically. There is no actual PC gaming section at any of my three local gamestops.
 

Entitled

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I know, I know, GOG, Amazon, etc, but many titles require Steamworks to operate, so I think that falls flat. I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.
Only in the realm of legal fiction.

I think it's an important factor to take it into account, that even though Valve might have a formal monopoly on controlling acces to certain titles, in practice, if their audience chooses to go around that monopoly, then unlike consoles, all that Valve can do is... shake their fists in the general direction of Sweden, and feel really mad about it.

I mean, sure, you can make arguments about how used sales are morally different from piracy either by the virtue of following legal alloances or by different commercial effects, but te end result is, that PC gaming has a rather popular established culture where in effect, most forms of playing a game without paying for it, (from lending to used sales), are serverd by piracy, even for those who otherwise also buy games.
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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I've got just one addendum to this video:

PC DOESN'T get away with it. Simple as that. The reason why the DRM stuff on PC is like it is today is twofold: 1) Competition yadda yadda. Watch the video about that one. 2) Back when it was introduced, people had an alternative. The CONSOLES. They could (and did, oh boy, did they) vote with their wallets, leaving those that genuinely didn't care about DRM behind. Those left behind were fought over by the varous storefronts, and that's why the environment on PC is so (relatively) healthy today. If there hadn't been an alternative, PC wouldn't have been allowed to do that. Period.
 

Trishbot

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May 10, 2011
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I can't even begin to tell you how much I wish I could do mods on my games. Seeing what people have done to games like Oblivion and Skyrim is incredible.

I used to use things like Game Genies, Gamesharks, and Action Replays, but modern systems pretty much block them, meaning I can't screw around with the games code like I used to.

All that being said, I REALLY wish we could get PC prices... or at least all that free DLC. Microsoft are total scrooges.
 

GAunderrated

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Jul 9, 2012
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LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
GAunderrated said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
No offense but cherry picking a few examples does not mean it is a global example.

Also steam is the referenced used most often but they have huge steam sales which trounce retailers a few times a year (summer, spring, fall, winter sales). Otherwise it is usually steam's competition that have the better deals such as GoG, GMG, and amazon.

The key to shopping correctly with PC is using all the competition to find good deals. When you are mutually exclusive to retailers who all agree on a set price you don't have to compete with much so the prices never vary drastically.

I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks ON RELEASE from GMG which matches the deal you just posted today, several months later.

Edit: disregard my post I didn't know you were talking about pre-ordering. Pre-ordering is for fools so I have nothing to contribute to this conversation.
I don't think you read that correctly. I'm referencing Steam, not PC digital distribution as a whole. Secondly, I'm referring to my situation and why I hardly buy from steam.

Fair enough but if you just are looking for sales only on steam and not using the entire PC market, you are missing out on some great deals. Nothing wrong with it I just think its a waste
I have over 100 games on Steam all bought during the sales. I'm just saying if I want to go out and buy COH 2, or any new game released I cannot get it on Steam because the price is anywhere between 10-20 euro in difference. Sometimes I don't feel like waiting 6 months to a 1 year to play a game I badly want to play.
On release I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks from Green Man Gaming which had a steam activation code. Again you are free to purchase it where you want but you are missing out on great deals but not checking out all your options. :)
 

Clovus

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I think an important point here is that PC's do not have DRM. Yes, Steam, Origin, and many games themselves have DRM, but the actual PC doesn't. You can buy tons of games with no DRM. The level of DRM on PC is able to change based on the market - it's not dictated by a single source company like Microsoft or Sony. If a publisher decides to drop a DRM system, it's gone.
 

scott91575

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Mr Cwtchy said:
This video is basically one big, slobbery blowjob for PC gaming. Shouldn't have expected anything less from The Escapist I suppose, but it certainly does remind me why I stopped watching the Jimquisition.

If you're going to claim that DRM is bad, or that abandoning used games is bad(like people have been doing here for the longest time, mostly against consoles of course), you'd better fucking be consistent about it. The surrounding circumstances, like all that crap about community features, modding and everything else is disconnected and not relevant to the discussion.

Your little whinefest about people criticising Valve and Steam was amusing, apparently expecting them to be held to the same standards of everyone else is out of order. They get far less flak when they pull the same shit as companies like EA than they should. Your own 'criticism' of the issues with PC gaming were as half-assed as remotely possible.

In short, as usual you're talking bullshit, and honestly I'd rather I hadn't wasted my time watching one guy's verbal lapdance for the PC.
I think you are missing the point. PC can get away with those restrictions due to the plusses you get with PC gaming. They may not be directly tied together, but when you add up the plusses and minuses it comes out as an overall positive for many consumers. Consoles would not be able to get away with those practices because if they implement them, why would anyone get a console? Used games and lack of DRM are pretty much the two main plusses consoles have over a PC. Once you get rid of those plusses and add in negatives (he explicitly stated this, guess you missed it) then all you are left with is negatives. It would literally kill the consoles. I stated this same exact thing to XBox fanboys who defended Microsoft's now former tactics. They all slobbered over it like it was supposed to be the future, and I explained how I can do everything Microsoft showed in their press conferences right now on a PC (or will be able to soon since Kinect is coming to the PC) while having a mostly open platform with competing digital distribution, dedicated servers ran by the community, mods, multiple programs for communication, tons and tons of peripherals that can take tons of different forms, free multiplayer, and on and on and on. It was amazing how clueless many console fans are when it comes to PC's. Heck, I have been switching between TV and games or even split screen between the two for about 5 years, yet XBox fanboys creamed themselves when they saw it. The only unique thing was the Kinect interface, yet that will be coming to PC too.

Anyway, to sum it up, you missed the point. PC can get away with it because PC gaming offers a wide array of benefits to the consumer not seen on consoles. Consoles simply cannot implement those same strategies because they just don't have enough benefits over PC gaming once you implement those restrictions. I know what you are getting at, and that is DRM is not needed on PC either. Yet PC gamers are willing to put up with those restrictions due to the tons of benefits that comes with PC gaming. The same could not be said with console gaming.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Jim, I enjoyed this video immensely.

I was wondering what kind of role you believe that really poor average internet speeds play in hindering the establishment of the digital market in all its glory? I was just mentioning this in another thread but take Uncharted 3 for example. It is 40 GBs in size and nearly took an entire day of downloading just to get it into my console. Not only that, but because it was 40GB and my console was a 75GB model, I had to delete nearly all of my content just to get it on there (it actually needed 15GB more space than 40GB just to get there). The 500GB hard drives are better, but with a ps3 game being 40GB I'd assume that next gen games could become 3 times that file size without much trouble. This was a significant hassel and is even still burdensome with Steam on titles that are in the 10GB range.

I posit, and you may correct me if I'm wrong, that enough HDD space and fast enough download times (coupled with the reasonable business practices you mentioned) are the biggest problem facing the full adoption of digital downloads these days. With uncharted I could have gone to a store and been back within 30 minutes and probably would have had a cheaper price tag than the PSN's pricing. I also wouldn't have had to delete other content to run it. The problem now isn't just that there's little or no benefit to it. It's that the time consumed is an outright negative.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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To be fair the biggest thing that made digital downloads to viable on the PC is that for many years games have been 100% stored locally with disks just acting as a kind of physical "You can use this on infinite PCs at once" kind of physical DRM. PC gamers never really tended to share games. Installing was always a pain if you took a game to a friends house. Hell the entire LAN party community was built around the idea that you take your whole system because it's yours.

And that's the big thing here. Steam may manage and lock down who uses your games but it gives you a hell of a lot of freedom with what you can do with them yourself. Mods and free community content through Steam workshop are actively encouraged. There is infrastructure for a community to flourish without a cut being taken from everything.

There is a LOT of free content on the PC. That's why we laugh at £15 map packs and horse armor and that's why many 'pay to win' games tend not to become staples.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.
Exactly. GOG shouldn't be used as an excuse for Steam, it should used as a large hammer to beat Valve around the head with.
 

LaochEire

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GAunderrated said:
On release I got Bioshock Infinite for 34 bucks from Green Man Gaming which had a steam activation code. Again you are free to purchase it where you want but you are missing out on great deals but not checking out all your options. :)
Well, judging from the front page, GMG is still more expensive than GS. For Americans, Steam or other sites like GMG may be cheaper, but over here the prices do not equate to value. You're not wrong. I'm not saying what you're saying is incorrect, my argument is Steam (and others) are great, but not for all of us.

I do most of my gaming on PS3 these days. Most games drop on Amazon UK to under ?30 after 3-4months after release. Plus, there are other issue that turned me off PC gaming, but that's for another thread.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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grumpymooselion said:
There is no actual PC gaming section at any of my three local gamestops.
And this is the reason that Digital Distribution took off on the PC. With retailers basicall abandoning PC gaming there was no other legal alternative for PC gamers to get their games. A lot of us were dragged kicking and screaming into it and some of us still prefer to buy physical copies where possible... but the fact remains, PC gamers latched onto digital distribution because all our local games retailers were offering, if anthing at all, maybe 10 different AAA titles, a Warcraft III Battlechest and a stack of shitty $5 "value" games that wouldn't even make the cut on a phone these days. PC games went from half the shelf space to a few shelves to a musty box behind the toilet in the space of a few years... Any wonder that digital distribution worked?
 

scott91575

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Whoracle said:
I've got just one addendum to this video:

PC DOESN'T get away with it. Simple as that. The reason why the DRM stuff on PC is like it is today is twofold: 1) Competition yadda yadda. Watch the video about that one. 2) Back when it was introduced, people had an alternative. The CONSOLES. They could (and did, oh boy, did they) vote with their wallets, leaving those that genuinely didn't care about DRM behind. Those left behind were fought over by the varous storefronts, and that's why the environment on PC is so (relatively) healthy today. If there hadn't been an alternative, PC wouldn't have been allowed to do that. Period.
I think that is the point. The reason people go to consoles is so they don't have to deal with DRM and they can sell their games. Get rid of that, and what do you have left? A locked down PC with all the bull and none of the benefits. Hence why consoles simply cannot do it.

As for the PC, the market downturn was greatly exaggerated. This is due to one fact, digital distribution. The sales reports simply had no way to count digital downloads. They still don't, but at least now they estimate. Back when DD was first ramping up, places like NPD reported PC gaming was losing revenue. The simply fact was, PC gaming wasn't. The money was just shifting from physical store sales to DD. Once they started taking those into account (still not well done or completely accurate but better than nothing) you started seeing the PC gaming industry look like it was making some sort of massive comeback. The fact is, PC gaming was not dying and is now thriving better than ever thanks to many of the things mentioned in Jim's video.
 

Valkrex

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
I think it may be a regional thing. Here in the United States, day one releases on Steam will either be identical in price to that of game stop, or even up to $10 cheaper.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Lightknight said:
The 500GB hard drives are better
Because Sony didn't piss about with purpose built enclosures and proprietary firmware, a PS3 can handle up to a 750Gb 2.5" HDD... and the reason the 1Gb and larger 2.5" HDDs couldn't be used is that the extra platter(s) the used for storage made the drive unit too large to fit into the case (unless you wanted to go with some fucked up case mod). Hopefully the console manufacturers didn't cheap on on the mobos for their new consoles so there'll be no maximum HDD size (most computers can't run an HDD larger than 3Tb)... and also that, for Xbone owners, MS will ditch all the prioprietary bollocks.



As for game price on Digital Distro... forget serious reductions outside of sales, especially if you live outside the US. Publishers are far too busy handjobbing retailers to allow digital distro to have an advantage on price... and of course, they're more than happy to pocket the mark up that keeps retail price competitive.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Valkrex said:
I think it may be a regional thing.
It's very much a regional thing.

Here's the real kicker with Steam for Australians... not only do with we get hit with prices that look as bad as those of retail... but that $89.99 they're asking for Call of Penis: Modern Cockfighter is in US dollars. Back when the dollarydoo was in the toilet instead of the greenback that meant a '$90 game' could set you back upward of AU$110-115... which is a shit price for a PC game, even by Australian standards.

Don't even have the decency to rob us in our own bloody money.

edit: and before someone starts pissing and moaning about Australians pissing and moaning about game prices, this is just an example. The Kiwis, amongst others, have it as bad or worse than we do for game prices.
 

hermes

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Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
 

scott91575

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hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
If you have an old copy it won't run well on a modern operating system, but you can still get a copy of a current operating system that allows compatibility mode. There are ways to do it. It's not always easy, but there are ways. For consoles it's impossible. Just simply not going to happen no matter how hard you try.
 

Lightknight

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Lightknight said:
The 500GB hard drives are better
Because Sony didn't piss about with purpose built enclosures and proprietary firmware, a PS3 can handle up to a 750Gb 2.5" HDD... and the reason the 1Gb and larger 2.5" HDDs couldn't be used is that the extra platter(s) the used for storage made the drive unit too large to fit into the case (unless you wanted to go with some fucked up case mod). Hopefully the console manufacturers didn't cheap on on the mobos for their new consoles so there'll be no maximum HDD size (most computers can't run an HDD larger than 3Tb)... and also that, for Xbone owners, MS will ditch all the prioprietary bollocks.
Ah, interesting. Thanks for all that information. I was wondering if the XBO would allow the swapping out of HDDs. This past generation we hardly touched our 360 until we got a new HDD that was ridiculously priced for being a whopping 50Gbs (heh). Whereas my PS3 has always been available for upgrade and I just hadn't had need for that until now.


As for game price on Digital Distro... forget serious reductions outside of sales, especially if you live outside the US. Publishers are far too busy handjobbing retailers to allow digital distro to have an advantage on price... and of course, they're more than happy to pocket the mark up that keeps retail price competitive.
I assume that was in response to the conversation going on in general rather than to me since I didn't mention price reductions. What are the average download/upload times in other countries? I have 16 mbps and it still takes just under a day to download Uncharted 3 (got it for free with PS+ which I was finally convinced to buy). It's to my understanding that while the US is slower on average than several other countries, most countries are even slower. We can't all live in Hong Kong and enjoy 44 mbps (which would have still required 6 hours or so to download Uncharted).
 

Olas

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Restrictions on PC games exist because of the very nature of digital content and how hard it is to regulate. Though they try to make up for it in numerous other regards.

Restrictions on the XBox One exist because Microsoft thought they could get away with it.

 

PunkRex

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kajinking said:
PunkRex said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Me to, I REALLY miss backwards compatability... I also have no experience with gaming PC's so I found this vid quit informative, thanks Jim.
That is one of the better parts of PC, I can install and play games from 10+ years ago on my system without having to do much.

I don't have my PS2 around the house but want to play GTA:SA? Download the PC version and get playing within 5 minutes!

Gaming PCs seem scary as hell when you first get them and get into them (I was terrified the first time I had to pop the case open to deal with something inside) but once you get the hang of it it's not all that badf.
Well, when you say it like that it doesn't sound badf at all.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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I have always been more loyal to consoles than to PCs. As a kid/teen/adult I was never able to afford the top of the line $3000 gaming PCs. And every year new PC games required upgrades just to play them. Consoles were not like that. Any game I buy for my 360 will play on my 360. I've never had a console tell me "your graphics card is not compatible blah blah blah", or tell my I need DirectX-9.9.1.2.5B
They just start right up.
So for Microsoft to pull some sort of PC type bullshit, where games have to update/download/ask for 12 digit key numbers/whatever was just...heart-breaking. I have already accepted reduced graphics as a fair-trade off to be able to play Mass Effect 3, or Call of Duty. I don't need Microsoft hounding me 24/7 for loyalty. I don't need to prove my loyalty, they should prove why they deserve it!
 

EvilRoy

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hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
I bought sys shock 2 the other day on GOG, it has been running no problem for me about 3 hours in.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Lightknight said:
Ah, interesting. Thanks for all that information. I was wondering if the XBO would allow the swapping out of HDDs. This past generation we hardly touched our 360 until we got a new HDD that was ridiculously priced for being a whopping 50Gbs (heh). Whereas my PS3 has always been available for upgrade and I just hadn't had need for that until now.
Hard to say what MS are going to do unless a majority of consumers are standing on their sac. With Sony, I think they went with standard HDDs both to save themselves some cash in production and also because they weren't sure if the HDD sizes they offered would prove to be insufficient. What will be interesting to see is if the new gen of consoles support SSDs. Expensive and kinda shit on price Vs storage capacity... but next to zero load times from disk? Yeah, that's some shit I can see a lot of console gamers thinking about if they continue to drop in price. Another thing to factor in is how the next gen will handle external HDDs... because if you can get a cheapish SSD for current installs and an external for bulk data storage then shit gets very interesting for console gamers looking for that extra bit of performance.

Honestly, I think Sony will be the best option when it comes to 3rd party hardware *again*. MS might pull their heads out of their arses and stop trying to control every aspect of their console... but we have to live in the world we have not the world we want.

Oh yeah, the 360 drives were standard 2.5" HDDs... the problem was with the cage and, most importantly, some proprietary firmware MS installed on the drives... All of the 360 softmods (think console chipping that doesn't need chips if you're not following) are based on a hack that allowed people to install 3rd party HDDs on 360s. If MS hadn't been dicks about it, it would have been a simple HDD swap.

I assume that was in response to the conversation going on in general rather than to me since I didn't mention price reductions. What are the average download/upload times in other countries? I have 16 mbps and it still takes just under a day to download Uncharted 3 (got it for free with PS+ which I was finally convinced to buy). It's to my understanding that while the US is slower on average than several other countries, most countries are even slower.
See, speed isn't the issue for a lot of countries, it's the monthly data caps that hurt. When you've got a set maximum allowance of data you can download in a month speed becomes less relevent... For example, I'm on a 100Mbit/s cable connection but my monthly data allowance is 200GB... given sufficent shit to download from high bandwidth sources I can kill that data cap in a day or so... and would have to spend the rest of the month at dial up speeds. So yeah, I could download a few games in not much time at all (assuming the download servers were up to it) but then I'd be sent back to the mid 90s for the rest of the month. Balls to that.
 

sturryz

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Steam as a gaming platform didn't build up it's rep in a day. It was quite a unpopular decision at first to many fans of Half Life and other Valve titles. The reason Steam is so popular, is simply because Valve has treated it's community fairly and built up Steam as such a great community of people, for the gamer by the gamer. Xbox One simply came out with the idea, and tried to force feed us it. Add Microsoft's reputation for screwing over just about everyone they have ever worked with, and it's not hard to see why there was such a negative reaction.
 

Gameguy20100

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Yea more like talking for 8 and a half minuets Jim. lol

But still I can understand it yea Steam can be annoying yes I was pissed of a little when I needed it for Skyrim and Bioshock infinite.

but I honestly don't give a fuck anymore.
 

Reeve

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Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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PunkRex said:
Well, when you say it like that it doesn't sound badf at all.
Thing to remember about PCs is they will only offer you a superior experience if that's the experience you prefer... (before an PC enthusiasts light the torches, chill. I'm talking experiences not technological performance.)

Beyond that, the biggest hurdles to PC gaming are the jargon and, unfortunately, those few PC gamers who just can't take the stick out their arse.

The advantage to an online community like the 'Pist is there are plenty (well a handful) of PC enthusiasts who are not only willing to help the neophyte but can also translate from PC enthusiast to newbie... and you can access these people without have to venture to sites where being a console gamer is a stoning offense... Just don't trust any of those heretics who recommend Haswell CPUs over Ivy Bridge, like that Intel shill Snowy. (cheers, Snow!)
 

Magmarock

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I adore GOG and avoid using Steam whenever possible. I wouldn't mind Steam so much if they didn't charge me $99 USD for games because of where I love.
 

Evilpigeon

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LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
A chunk of it is due to you using steam in Euros. Steam doesn't like Euros. For example Company of heroes 2 is £39.99 which is cheaper. You might want to look at trying to change your location to the UK to get better deals.

Skyrim legendary is £24.99

Bioshock infinite is £29.99

Rome 2 is currently £29.99 on steam :D
 

scott91575

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EvilRoy said:
hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
I bought sys shock 2 the other day on GOG, it has been running no problem for me about 3 hours in.
I left that out of my reply because you could do the same thing with new consoles (buy an old game made compatible for the new system). The point is buying the game new and play it forever without having to buy it again for the new compatibility. Buying from GOG is not the same. They have modified it to work with new operating systems and you had to pay for the new compatibility (a second time if you bought it 14 years ago). Yet, as I mentioned, there are plenty of things you can do to get an old game to work. Yet you have to be a little proactive and buy the right OS with compatibility mode or learn how to make it work (which can be a hassle). It is possible though, and the same cannot be said for old console games.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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RhombusHatesYou said:
Hard to say what MS are going to do unless a majority of consumers are standing on their sac. With Sony, I think they went with standard HDDs both to save themselves some cash in production and also because they weren't sure if the HDD sizes they offered would prove to be insufficient. What will be interesting to see is if the new gen of consoles support SSDs. Expensive and kinda shit on price Vs storage capacity... but next to zero load times from disk? Yeah, that's some shit I can see a lot of console gamers thinking about if they continue to drop in price. Another thing to factor in is how the next gen will handle external HDDs... because if you can get a cheapish SSD for current installs and an external for bulk data storage then shit gets very interesting for console gamers looking for that extra bit of performance.
Oh, I thought you new something about their HDD that I didn't. Their proprietary HDD's last gen were enfuriating compared with Sony's.

Honestly, I think Sony will be the best option when it comes to 3rd party hardware *again*. MS might pull their heads out of their arses and stop trying to control every aspect of their console... but we have to live in the world we have not the world we want.
It is looking that way.

Oh yeah, the 360 drives were standard 2.5" HDDs... the problem was with the cage and, most importantly, some proprietary firmware MS installed on the drives... All of the 360 softmods (think console chipping that doesn't need chips if you're not following) are based on a hack that allowed people to install 3rd party HDDs on 360s. If MS hadn't been dicks about it, it would have been a simple HDD swap.
Yeah, that was a dick move on their part. Not that Sony was any better with proprietary handheld memory sticks for the psp and vita.

See, speed isn't the issue for a lot of countries, it's the monthly data caps that hurt. When you've got a set maximum allowance of data you can download in a month speed becomes less relevent... For example, I'm on a 100Mbit/s cable connection but my monthly data allowance is 200GB... given sufficent shit to download from high bandwidth sources I can kill that data cap in a day or so... and would have to spend the rest of the month at dial up speeds. So yeah, I could download a few games in not much time at all (assuming the download servers were up to it) but then I'd be sent back to the mid 90s for the rest of the month. Balls to that.
Ah, that'd be awful. Especially if games get into the 100GBs which shouldn't be hard with Uncharted 3 running 40GB on the ps3.
 

hermes

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scott91575 said:
hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
If you have an old copy it won't run well on a modern operating system, but you can still get a copy of a current operating system that allows compatibility mode. There are ways to do it. It's not always easy, but there are ways. For consoles it's impossible. Just simply not going to happen no matter how hard you try.
EvilRoy said:
I bought sys shock 2 the other day on GOG, it has been running no problem for me about 3 hours in.
I works because Irrational did some work on the original code to work on modern PC/Mac via the gog system; which is nice, but not different than if some developers try to resell a 360 game on XBox One after they recompile it with the new SDK. The point is, it requires some work on the developer side, otherwise it won't happen... ever.

If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
 

scott91575

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Jun 8, 2009
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Kinitawowi said:
Okay, let me be the one to say it:

Jim, you are a patronising, condescending arsewipe of a human being and I hope you choke on what I'm sure you regard as the beautiful, beautiful taste of your own excrement.

You've made a video here that tells us why everything else about PC gaming is awesome. Steam sales, eternal* compatability, prompt upgrades, community integration and development, vastly more content... but what you haven't done is told us why DRM is considered acceptable on PC. And then you have the cheek to turn around and say "I really shouldn't have to", when you've just told exactly why you do have to, and then failed to do so. At most you've argued that everything else that the DRM-mongers have done is great, so let's just take this little bit of dick up our holes.

You haven't told us anything about why PC gamers (like myself, I hasten to add) can go out to one of the few places on the high street that still sells PC games, buy a boxed game with a disc and everything, and then have to go back home and install Origin and sign up to their bullshit (and watch their sign-up process have a fart and lock me out for two hours) and type in a single-user product key in order to make it work. The fact that everything else about PC gaming is awesome does not make that acceptable. (Oh, and said Origin game still costs the same amount six months later as it did at the time. Blame Origin all you want, but that still doesn't make the system that has allowed it okay.)

You have outright lied about the nature of competition between online storefronts. Several of these stores are still under the control of their respective publishers and as such they're free to monopolise and gouge individual titles as they see fit. Again, this is partly the publisher's fault, but again, this doesn't make it okay. Game and Amazon and Tesco and even CeX can fight for my wallet on several titles. Steam and Origin have several where they can't.

You haven't told us why the lack of a used game market is fine. I don't trade in games myself, but there are plenty who do and I'm more than willing to tour those racks to find a couple of their bargains. GoG half-answers my side of this (although I really wish they'd post prices in pounds), but the sellers' side is still sorely lacking.

You haven't told us why it's okay that past attempts at DRM have at best installed disruptive and slowing software to people's PCs and at worst exposed those PCs to security issues and potential physical harm.

In short, you've told us precisely nothing about the actual issue and then patronised people for wondering about it. You. Piece. Of. Shit.

(The wonderful irony in all of this is that there are several answers, speaking to the long-term culture of gaming on home computers versus that of consoles, and you've chosen to ignore all of them in order to go off on an irrelevant tangent.)
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.
 

LaochEire

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Evilpigeon said:
LaochEire said:
Arcade Hero X said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
Here man I live in Ireland too and your a bit wide of the mark really. I have seen copies of terraria go for ?25 quid in GS while it's standard price on steam is ?9.99 also GS matches the price for most new releases.......except COD which is ?10 cheaper than steam for some reason. GS Ireland really can't give a fuck about PC games and as an ex employee I can attest to that I mean there is literally a 1x1 foot spinning shelf thing in my local GS for PC games and most other stores the PC games are hidden away from view while the Steam vouchers are right in your face as you walk in.
I understand so just an update on a few titles. Don't forget I'm talking about pre-order or brand new releases.

Company of Heroes 2
Steam 49.99
GS 39.97

Rome Total War 2
Steam 54.99
GS 44.97

Skyrim Legendary Edition
Steam 39.99
GS 29.97

Bioshock Infinite
Steam 49.99
GS 34.97

Total savings from shopping at GS over Steam ?45.08. That's a massive difference.


I swear as soon as I go and try to get more examples the bloody site goes down.

Edit to say I will update the post with more when GS website decides to co-operate.
A chunk of it is due to you using steam in Euros. Steam doesn't like Euros. For example Company of heroes 2 is £39.99 which is cheaper. You might want to look at trying to change your location to the UK to get better deals.

Skyrim legendary is £24.99

Bioshock infinite is £29.99

Rome 2 is currently £29.99 on steam :D
Crazy, why are they shafting the Euro crowd? Although the pound to Euro puts them on equal footing with GS give or take a few cents. COH2 is on sale on the UK store, now how is that fair to everyone else?

Doesn't matter now anyway, I do most of my gaming on PS3 now. Only go on PC for RTS and Strategy gaming.
 

Whoracle

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hermes200 said:
I works because Irrational did some work on the original code to work on modern PC/Mac via the gog system; which is nice, but not different than if some developers try to resell a 360 game on XBox One after they recompile it with the new SDK. The point is, it requires some work on the developer side, otherwise it won't happen... ever.
This is false. Some guys over at TTLG did it, and have been since the Windows 2k/XP days, which, due to their differing kernelhad problems running dark engine games out of the box.Nothing a /lgntforce couldn't handle back on win2k, though. Gog just packaged it.

If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
I don't know FX Fighter, but my Gold Games version of Descent runs. Via DOSBox, granted, but the fact that such software even EXISTS is a major boon and something you just can't do on Consoles. You're confusing Backwards Compatibility, NATIVE Backwards Compatibility, and Rereleases.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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Jim, you are a patronising, condescending arsewipe of a human being and I hope you choke on what I'm sure you regard as the beautiful, beautiful taste of your own excrement.
I'm not really a person to make a comment that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but Hate to say it dude, while you brought up good points in the rest of your argument, you can criticize someone without using vulgar insults such as this one.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
 

EvilRoy

The face I make when I see unguarded pie.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
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53
hermes200 said:
scott91575 said:
hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
If you have an old copy it won't run well on a modern operating system, but you can still get a copy of a current operating system that allows compatibility mode. There are ways to do it. It's not always easy, but there are ways. For consoles it's impossible. Just simply not going to happen no matter how hard you try.
EvilRoy said:
I bought sys shock 2 the other day on GOG, it has been running no problem for me about 3 hours in.
I works because Irrational did some work on the original code to work on modern PC/Mac via the gog system; which is nice, but not different than if some developers try to resell a 360 game on XBox One after they recompile it with the new SDK. The point is, it requires some work on the developer side, otherwise it won't happen... ever.

If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
It has been mentioned down the page by a different poster, but it was actually a fan made patch that allows system shock 2 (and thief 2) to run on current machines. GOG/Irrational may have taken a look at the patch to make sure there was nothing that would murder a computer user in there, but the work had already been done before it was set up for official digital distribution.
 

Reeve

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Feb 8, 2013
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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
 

nogoodreason

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Jun 24, 2013
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Any chance of a list of all the games shown in that video? I recognised Witcher 2 and Portal 2 but none of the others. Particularly interested to know what that 'dude walking through frozen time mid-explosion' thing was as it looked really cool.
 

sorsa

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Dec 19, 2011
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Jim, you never fail to brighten up my day with your clever mix of journalism and sarcasm. Rock on forever!
 

targren

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Machine Man 1992 said:
Holythirteen said:
Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?
You can build a middling gaming-PC, on par with console experience, for the same or less than the cost of an XBone.

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?
Irrelevant. Whether you build a gaming PC or buy the next gen of consoles, you won't be able to play those without the old console you already own.

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?
Unspoken, and not particularly true.


All that said, I have to disagree with Jim on this one. I know he's more forgiving of PC DRM, but the fact is that Steam is just as bad as Origin in that your only choices are to agree to whatever they might feel like jamming into the TOS, or your library is forfeit (Origin is more obnoxious about this so far, but Steam's done it too). But for some reason he glossed over one of the big arguments against the XBone: anyone with a bad/no internet connection is screwed. Now that you get titles like DX:HR and Borderlands 2 coming with steam even on the physical disc (there are many more examples, those are just the ones I can think of that I wanted but passed on) has those people just as screwed.
 

kajinking

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PunkRex said:
kajinking said:
PunkRex said:
canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
Me to, I REALLY miss backwards compatability... I also have no experience with gaming PC's so I found this vid quit informative, thanks Jim.
That is one of the better parts of PC, I can install and play games from 10+ years ago on my system without having to do much.

I don't have my PS2 around the house but want to play GTA:SA? Download the PC version and get playing within 5 minutes!

Gaming PCs seem scary as hell when you first get them and get into them (I was terrified the first time I had to pop the case open to deal with something inside) but once you get the hang of it it's not all that badf.
Well, when you say it like that it doesn't sound badf at all.
I really gotta re-read my stuff before posting LOLf.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
1,262
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It

The Xbox One no longer enforces restrictions on used games, but the debate over console DRM is not over. One lingering question is this -- why are consoles criticized, but PC gets away with it?
I think it's more that nobody (who counts) cares about PC gaming.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
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Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.
 

SoDaRa

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Jan 7, 2009
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the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
The WiiU is actually cheaper than $400 at its most basic set and does have games that the PC will probably never have. So the WiiU does have that going for it.
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?
 

Kinitawowi

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scott91575 said:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.
But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
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Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

You see where I'm getting at here?
 

SoDaRa

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Jan 7, 2009
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The WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, so I don't know what he'd talking about when he says none of the systems are backward compatible anymore. Also, I bought Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath last December and I still can't play it nor can I find a patch for it. :\ Plus, I could probably think of several PC games that just won't work on modern systems due to them not being backward compatible. And as OSs change, more games will have this problem. Sure GOG is releasing old ones for modern systems, but they can't get to every game and there are sure to be some that just fall through the cracks of time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that backward-compatibility, or rather the preservation of older games is still a really big issue facing the medium, just like how film had the same problem when the first films ever made weren't preserved and were lost in time. Although I must say I'm really glad with how Nintendo is at least trying to preserve their older titles, if only for the present. Sony has done very little in this regard and I constantly fear for the day my old PS2 discs just stop working.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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Kinitawowi said:
scott91575 said:
Now I understand why Jim sounds so frustrated.

It's not that DRM and no used games are part of the things he listed. It's the fact the plusses allow them to add in some negatives and still have it a net overall gain for many users vs. other platforms. It may not be ok for you, and that is fine. Yet, obviously, there are many people who are willing to put up with the DRM and lack of used games in order to take advantage of what the PC can offer. Those same plusses are not available on consoles, so they cannot add in a negative like DRM and eliminate used game. They don't have that luxury.

I have stated this over and over again in this thread. I have no idea why you people cannot fathom that. If DRM destroys any experience for you, then sure, PC gaming not for you. Yet PC gaming offers other plusses that offset that minus for many people. Consoles do not have those added plusses and therefore have less leeway in adding restrictive measures. The consoles simply don't have the added plusses to offset any additional negative features. In order for the consoles to add a negative feature they needed to offset that feature with a positive even though neither is a requirement for the other. From what we saw, there simply were not enough added positives for the consumer to accept a negative addition.
But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.


I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.
I believe the title of the video is why "PC Gets Away with it" not "Why Do PC gamers Tolerate DRM"
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.
I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
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Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.
I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.
What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

You see where I'm getting at here?
I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.
I know. However most people don't want to have to buy their games digitally because it apparently violates their petty sense of ownership of the game. Whereas people don't buy cars, TVs, monitors, heating, cooling etc for a reason as ridiculous as that.
What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.
It's not the primary reason though, is it? People buy cars for transport. People buy TVs to watch - First and foremost.
A lot of gamers, on the other hand, when given the choice between getting their games digitally or physically, will go for the physical copy ONLY for the arbitrary reason that they want it to feel like they "own" it. And every time the planet takes another hit.
 

Deacon Cole

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SoDaRa said:
The WiiU is actually cheaper than $400 at its most basic set and does have games that the PC will probably never have. So the WiiU does have that going for it.
Saying a Nintendo console has games that are not available on PC is like saying your brothers wife won't have sex with you.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Dragonbums said:
What do you mean by that?
People BUY cars for transportation and OWNERSHIP. Nobody would purchase a car that would never really belong to them.
People BUY televisions because besides entertainment they want to OWN a television.
People lease and rent cars and TVs all the time.

I would argue that nobody buys those things to own them, they buy them to get practical use out of them. Why would you buy a car just to own it? You buy a car for the function it provides - transportation. Only the most vain and superficial people would buy a car just to say that they own it.
 

Atmos Duality

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hermes200 said:
EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that..
I bought and downloaded SS2 the first day it popped up on GoG.
It works perfectly fine; better than when it was new actually, since it hasn't crashed.
 

EvilRoy

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Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Dragonbums said:
Reeve said:
Here's a question for people who can't live without having physical copies of their games: Have you considered that digital is much less wasteful? And bad for the environment? There's everything that has to go into making the plastic and then the games have to be shipped in planes and then driven to the retailer. And then you have to drive to the shop to pick it up or have someone have it driven to you. Just think about that carbon footprint you could be avoiding.
Firstly, your argument is so flawed I can't even...
Everything, from your computer, to the things you use for comfort was delivered in some way.
You might as well quit right now and live in the forest.
Saying that we aren't environmentally conscious about ourselves because we want to OWN the thing we paid $60.00 for is stupid.
Saying that being that environmentally conscious is a good reason to go digital is even dumber.
Yes of course we have to get our PCs etc made and delivered. That does contribute to the carbon footprint. The thing is having games physically distributed and us going out to get them ADDS some more to that carbon footprint than we otherwise would have, if we had simply downloaded the game.
That is still a very poor reason to convince to someone to go digital. You are going to have to find a better argument then that.

I would argue that someone who isn't convinced when the stability of our planet's environment is in question has not got their priorities straight. ;)

I'm sure you'd agree that the planet is more important than one's personal sense of ownership over a videogame?

The planet is also more important than ones car, television, monitor, heating, cooling, cooking ware,utensils, etc.

You see where I'm getting at here?
You've got to watch out though, thats slipping into Nirvana Fallacy territory. Just because it won't solve the problem completely by itself does not make the choice to take a single more environmentally friendly option any less positive or helpful.

See also: "Why bother giving money to HoH? There will still be homeless people." and "Why quit drinking soda? It's not like that one change will help you lose any real weight."
 

porous_shield

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SoDaRa said:
The WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, so I don't know what he'd talking about when he says none of the systems are backward compatible anymore. Also, I bought Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath last December and I still can't play it nor can I find a patch for it. :\ Plus, I could probably think of several PC games that just won't work on modern systems due to them not being backward compatible. And as OSs change, more games will have this problem. Sure GOG is releasing old ones for modern systems, but they can't get to every game and there are sure to be some that just fall through the cracks of time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that backward-compatibility, or rather the preservation of older games is still a really big issue facing the medium, just like how film had the same problem when the first films ever made weren't preserved and were lost in time. Although I must say I'm really glad with how Nintendo is at least trying to preserve their older titles, if only for the present. Sony has done very little in this regard and I constantly fear for the day my old PS2 discs just stop working.
Yours is a very strange argument. Nintendo is one entity, the PC is not, you can't compare their policies to each other. The PC is a millions times more backwards compatible than any of the consoles simply because of how adaptable it is; you can also play a boatload of console games through emulation that is how adaptable a PC is. Sure you can play your Wii games on your Wii-U but you can play games from the late eighties on your PC and there are pages and pages of text in treads all across the internet devoted to getting old games to work on newer configurations.
 

AstaresPanda

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Im so glad he spelled it out to people. I left consoles behind soon after the late PS1/N64 era. And have never looked back, back then playing online games with ppl on my 33.6k modem was amazing to me. Consoles once had to plug and play on its side and simple to pick up n play but not anymore. And Pc is just far better in the long run.

fact is the cost of a console and a couple of games = the cost of a good pc gaming rig provided you build it yourself which is not very hard at all. Games are cheaper have a longer life span with added community made stuff etc, Steam sales are always amazing. And on top of that no months xbox/psn fee if you got the net thats it.

honestly its not console bashing if its all true. You console gaming brothers and sisters your being ripped off.
 

Seracen

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I recently came across a thread wherein I read a bit of concerning news. Apparently, M$ reserves the right, and intends, to revert the DRM policies to the crappy practices later on (the quoted patch was 1.2, I believe).

I really hope this is more conspiracy theory nonsense, but I have been afraid of just this very outcome. I expect the uproar would be unprecedented, but what's to keep XBONE from doing this once the preorders/initial sales are in?

Personally, I am assuming that the previous DRM-laden policy will be for digital games only (like on demand or XBLA), if at all. The point is moot, in my case, since I intend to get a PS4 first anyways, and will likely hold off on next gen (relying on my PC in the interim) for at least a year.
 

BBQSoda

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I agree completely with everything brought up in this video.

However, I must also point out that you are forgetting one thing: The PC used game market was dead (relative to the console market anyway) well before digital distribution took off.

Remember the PC game section of your local Gamestop or equivalent 10-ish years ago? No? Well, they did keep that one tiny shelf hidden in the back as well as they could....
 

Jennacide

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Game returns on Steam are pretty easy if you have a valid reason for the return. I bought Defender's Quest during the sale today, and it straight up WILL NOT run on my monitor for some reason I can't figure out. I sent a report to Steam asking if I could get a refund on the game due to being completely unable to get it to work past the title screen. An hour later the game vanished from my library and my Steam Wallet had been refunded the $5 I spent.
 

ThinkerT

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Kinitawowi said:
But it's all still a smokescreen. Those advantages are great and all, but this was supposed to be a video about why we accept DRM on PCs and it managed to talk about everything about PC gaming but DRM. Doesn't matter how many sheets we throw over it, the elephant in the room is still there. "LOOK AT THE SHINY SHINY!" is not an argument for why DRM is okay.

I get the point, honestly I do; jingle enough keys at people and they'll eventually look away from the Dig'Em statue, and the XBone didn't offer enough keys; but I think we all know that there's probably no amount of keys you could attach to the 180 that would be enough for a hell of a lot of people. All the anti-DRM arguments that people put forward for the consoles, particularly the hallowed first-sale doctrine (disclaimer: I'm British, so that likely isn't an issue for me - there's probably some different shit going on over here), are still valid for the PC and still not being addressed. There are still questions about why you can't move on used software, for example, and "because Steam! And GoG!" is not an answer to any of those questions.

captcha: let it be. NO.
It's not a smokescreen at all, and he addresses it head on several times. I'm not sure how you're missing it at this point.

Yes, PCs have (some) DRM. Yes, DRM sucks. No one is attempting to make the argument that DRM is "okay" for consumers in and of itself. But PC gaming has ALL of these other positives that make DRM more tolerable, whereas consoles have very few of them. It's not a "shiny shiny", it's a cost/benefit analysis, that for most, including Jim, comes up on the positive side. He's arguing that MS is attempting to introduce all of the negatives and few of the positives.

That, combined with the less-obtrusive nature of the DRM on PCs compared to what MS proposed, is "Why PC Gaming Gets Away With It".
 

scott91575

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BBQSoda said:
I agree completely with everything brought up in this video.

However, I must also point out that you are forgetting one thing: The PC used game market was dead (relative to the console market anyway) well before digital distribution took off.

Remember the PC game section of your local Gamestop or equivalent 10-ish years ago? No? Well, they did keep that one tiny shelf hidden in the back as well as they could....
I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).
 

Zeckt

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Jennacide said:
Game returns on Steam are pretty easy if you have a valid reason for the return. I bought Defender's Quest during the sale today, and it straight up WILL NOT run on my monitor for some reason I can't figure out. I sent a report to Steam asking if I could get a refund on the game due to being completely unable to get it to work past the title screen. An hour later the game vanished from my library and my Steam Wallet had been refunded the $5 I spent.
Ooooh that's a shame, its a fun game!
 

BaronVH

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The reason PC gets away with it is piracy. It is so insanely rampant on PC games, if they didn't control it there would be no games, and piracy is one of the reasons we don't see more games on PCs. I was a long, long time PC gamer. Now that I am older, I enjoy reclining in a soft, fancy chair in front of my home theater and not hunching over a keyboard. Console gaming is more comfortable. The reasons consoles wanted DRM (and Sony did too, they just pulled a little PR coup), is that the used game market cuts into AAA title profits.
 

scott91575

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BaronVH said:
The reason PC gets away with it is piracy. It is so insanely rampant on PC games, if they didn't control it there would be no games, and piracy is one of the reasons we don't see more games on PCs. I was a long, long time PC gamer. Now that I am older, I enjoy reclining in a soft, fancy chair in front of my home theater and not hunching over a keyboard. Console gaming is more comfortable. The reasons consoles wanted DRM (and Sony did too, they just pulled a little PR coup), is that the used game market cuts into AAA title profits.
That logic is pretty flawed considering DRM doesn't stop piracy.

BTW...I lounge in a comfortable chair in front of a big tv while PC gaming. You are doing it wrong.
 

BBQSoda

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scott91575 said:
I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).
Were they new or used games? I remember seeing some respectable shelf space at various stores for new PC games, but I had to really hunt for some used ones.
 

scott91575

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BBQSoda said:
scott91575 said:
I can't really speak for Gamestop 10ish years ago, but I know my local Best Buy used to have 2+ isles of PC games 10ish years ago. It was bigger than any current console shelf space (of course the PS2 was the biggest area since they dominated consoles at the time).
Were they new or used games? I remember seeing some respectable shelf space at various stores for new PC games, but I had to really hunt for some used ones.
My bad, I thought you shifted to why digital distribution took off after making a point about used games (guess I read it too fast). Yeah, used PC games were never big, ever. In the early days people used to just make bootleg copies like people would do with CD's and tapes. It was incredibly easy (as long as you had a manual or a copy of a manual you were good to go most of the time). I don't even recall Babbage's ever doing used PC games even when over half their store was PC/Mac games. Then that whole internet thing came along and people looking for cheap games just pirated them over the internet. Hey, just like music again.

So yeah, you are right. Used PC games were never much of a market (although I have sold older PC games to Amazon, so there was a small market even in recent years).
 

Yuuki

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the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

 

Jimothy Sterling

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You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is ***** and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.


Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to ***** and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.
 

WeepingAngels

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Instead of making excuses for PC DRM that prevents resell and is dependent on servers being around years from now when you want to play again, we should be making our voices heard against PC DRM too.
 

Snotnarok

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I find it astonishing Sterling had to make this video to ...not educate people who don't understand the difference but people who instead are insisting marking write ups are facts, that somehow in the insanity that was the X-180's DRM policy there was positive light because it was "similar to steam".

Whoever defends the X-180 old DRM policies and suggests it's the same as Steam/Origin/Uplay/whatatever else has never used these services and doesn't understand how it works and why it's accepted.

Why would anyone defend DRM being implemented? I ...just can't wrap my head around it. I mean Sony has some form of DRM with their devices, and it manages to be better than what the X180 was and what the WiiU has currently.

Buy a SNES game on your WiiU? You can play it on your WiiU...Then if you want to play it on something else, pay the overpriced title on another device.

Buy a PSOne game on your PS3? Play it on your PS3, PSP, PSV, install it on all of them, go hog wild if you want. Transfer save games between them, no sign ins just register the device. Works preeeeeeeetty well.
 

Saltyk

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Sep 12, 2010
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I've been saying that one of the major advantages of consoles over the years was the plug in and play aspect. It wasn't something I thought about when growing up, but nowadays, it's sad to have seemingly been lost. Every game system from the PS2 and earlier did not require updates or patches. That was a strength. I really hope console gaming returns to that root. Otherwise, one of the biggest advantages over PC will have been lost.

It's really annoying to have to wait for my game to download, update the system, update the game, and the require an online connection. On a console...

canadamus_prime said:
Man, do I miss the days when I could just pick up and play on my consoles without all the bullshit.
That's something I really hope we get with the PS4, now. Sony seems to have learned a lot from this last generation. So, hopefully, this is something that will be a thing we can enjoy once more. Sit, down, plug in the console, and play a game.

So hopefully less updates to the system. And supposedly, we'll be able to play even while downloading games, so maybe that will translate into playing games even when downloading other things as well. Hopefully.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
You get taxed by the EU if you use steam for some reason. They don't like steam and are willing to tax the hell of what you buy from them.

Yeah, I don't get why anyone would tax internet purchases either.

Some people try to get past the taxes by having an American sell them for cheap, but steam is legally bound to ban them from the service for tax dodging. A serious crime that can drag Valve into an EU court.
 

Bix96

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Akalabeth said:
You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is ***** and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.


Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to ***** and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.
You are allowed to have as much faith as you want but the reason stuff like this scares people is because companies have already proven that they CAN NOT be trusted with these things besides only about three things in Microsoft's "Future of gaming" would have actually pushed the industry forward the rest would have sent it to the dark ages.
 

Something Amyss

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
I mean, I like GOG, but it shouldn't be a method to excuse the fact that we have a monopolistic platform on PC as well.
Exactly. GOG shouldn't be used as an excuse for Steam, it should used as a large hammer to beat Valve around the head with.
I like that line of thinking. TO ARMS!
 

Machine Man 1992

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targren said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Holythirteen said:
Console gamers are running out of excuses to not go PC.
You mean beisdes prohibitive cost?
You can build a middling gaming-PC, on par with console experience, for the same or less than the cost of an XBone.

Or the fact that some of us have an extensive console library already?
Irrelevant. Whether you build a gaming PC or buy the next gen of consoles, you won't be able to play those without the old console you already own.

Or the unspoken guarantee that a game put in a console will work, every time?
Unspoken, and not particularly true.


All that said, I have to disagree with Jim on this one. I know he's more forgiving of PC DRM, but the fact is that Steam is just as bad as Origin in that your only choices are to agree to whatever they might feel like jamming into the TOS, or your library is forfeit (Origin is more obnoxious about this so far, but Steam's done it too). But for some reason he glossed over one of the big arguments against the XBone: anyone with a bad/no internet connection is screwed. Now that you get titles like DX:HR and Borderlands 2 coming with steam even on the physical disc (there are many more examples, those are just the ones I can think of that I wanted but passed on) has those people just as screwed.
My history with PC gaming has not been a nice one, let me tell you.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Yuuki said:
the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

Lemme know when you've got a setup for under $350.
 

LazyAza

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Yep I've always been a PC first console second guy simply because of the freedoms and options I've always had on PC. Most importantly the pricing. Their are literally 100s of games I've bought on pc for less than a quarter of their price on console when the pc version is the better one. Absolute madness.
 

LetalisK

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I was under the impression there was no used game market for PCs because it was all too easy to just buy a game, copy it, then turn it back in, making it so retailers didn't even want to engage in it. Kind of the same reason return policies at major retailers are fairly strict about opened software. Is it just as easy to buy a 360 or PS3 game, copy it, then turn it in at Gamestop?

Actually, that doesn't make sense. Gamestop would still be getting their money, and probably at a faster rate too. I dunno.
 

J Tyran

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CrazyCapnMorgan said:
How the hell do I clean it properly?
Get two pieces of clean kitchen roll, separate them and fold each one into squares. Slightly dampen one of the squares, don't over do it. Make sure its damp but not to wet, then wipe over the console cleaning off any marks or fingerprints. Take the dry piece and then buff off any streaks that are left, it should be perfectly clean.

Don't put chemicals or cleaners on it, they leave residues that are hard to remove. Some will damage the plastic too and can leave it looking slight hazy. Clean water and a clean disposable cloth leaves no residue and have no particles trapped in the cloth to scratch the Vita.

A Microfibre cloth can be useful for regular cleaning, embarrassingly I carry one around with me. I hate the way phones and tablets get covered in fingerprints, regular wiping them over keeps them clean.
 

80sboy

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LoL

Fanboys can only be fanboys. Especially if it's Xbots.

They're not interested in your rights as a gamer, they don't want to see the bullshit, they just want to defend Microsoft at all cost.

Fact is DRM on PCs is the number one reason that drove me to get a console. I like the option of sharing games, returning them, renting them. I can't do that with PC, and unlike a lot of my friends, I don't like the idea of pirating.

So what? These Xbots are thinking, "Hey if PC gets away with it, why can't Xbone?" Because that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. It's like asking "Well in Saudi Arabi, the government can have cutting people's hands off as a form of punishment for theft, why can't we?"

You fucking morons! It's not a good thing!

LoL. Okay! Comparing DRMs to that form of punishment is not very fair, but what's accurate about it is it's a form of punishment that should be done away with simply. It's the biggest disadvantages of owning a PC that drives people like me to console. And I'd like for consoles to stay that way. I don't want to be punished on my console as I have been on my PC. I just don't!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Bix96 said:
Akalabeth said:
You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is ***** and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.


Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to ***** and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.
You are allowed to have as much faith as you want but the reason stuff like this scares people is because companies have already proven that they CAN NOT be trusted with these things besides only about three things in Microsoft's "Future of gaming" would have actually pushed the industry forward the rest would have sent it to the dark ages.
Yes "companies" cannot be trusted and yet Jim is saying trust companies like Valve and Projeck whatever (GOG.com). Again, it's a double standard.

I mean really, one of the reasons that Jim cites for Steam having more value than the consoles is the fucking trophies that Steam ripped off from Xbox Live? Really?

Fact is nothing Xbox was planning would have affected my gaming experience negatively in any way. I might be the exception given the fact I rarely trade in used games, but I wouldn't have noticed a difference.

If for example people had said "no used games? And still 60 dollars? Are you kidding me?" If they had pushed for more incentives to make the console more attractive then hey, maybe Microsoft could have been persuaded to drop first party titles to 50 dollars. Then Playstation could have been persuaded to follow suit. Then there'd be no used games but it wouldn't matter because the base price for games would have been as cheaper or cheaper than used games anyway and everyone would have profited.

Instead, Playstation does pretty much the same thing they did last time. And microsoft is forced to do pretty much the same thing as well.
 

leviadragon99

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Well yeah.

Maybe it's because I'm a PC gamer and have little to do with consoles, but I thought much of this episode was obvious too, I did see people bringing the argument up and expected an episode in response but it is still very surprising to me that people had to be told.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
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Yuuki said:
the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

It's still not pitching all that good of a gaming rig. The ps4 is shaping up to be a lot more powerful than the $500 system and for $400. The ps4 has found a kind of sweet spot for the price and convenience. Though this guy did pretty darn well on that price point.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
1.Download game to target machine.
2.Go into offline mode.
3.Go to 1.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Lightknight said:
Yuuki said:
the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

It's still not pitching all that good of a gaming rig. The ps4 is shaping up to be a lot more powerful than the $500 system and for $400. The ps4 has found a kind of sweet spot for the price and convenience. Though this guy did pretty darn well on that price point.
Guess what?

The PC is modular.

The PS is not.
 

Tanakh

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Lightknight said:
It's still not pitching all that good of a gaming rig. The ps4 is shaping up to be a lot more powerful than the $500 system and for $400. The ps4 has found a kind of sweet spot for the price and convenience. Though this guy did pretty darn well on that price point.
Two things:

- You are comparing two machines that have more than 9 months of difference in hitting the market. Not sure if that even makes any sense.

- While you technically don't own the BIOS for a PC or a PS. On PC you can mod it and have different options, the PS 3 taught us that you only own the metal and plastic in the machine and Sony is willing to take away sale features that they deem useless (linux) and sue modders. At the current technology rate it seems probable that you will be able to build a machine on par with the PS 4 for $500-$550 USD in the US, I would consider that $100 buck difference the price of owning and not leasing the hardware.

That said I might buy a PS4 because fucking Capcom forces the fighting community to stay on consoles.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Lightknight said:
Yuuki said:
the antithesis said:
Not to mention that you can put together a gaming PC for the price of a console these days.


So consoles don't even have the lower price point to make them attractive.
Far more up-to-date and powerful build for $500 from the same guy:

It's still not pitching all that good of a gaming rig. The ps4 is shaping up to be a lot more powerful than the $500 system and for $400. The ps4 has found a kind of sweet spot for the price and convenience. Though this guy did pretty darn well on that price point.
The PS4 runs on a tablet APU. It may be better than a PS3, but it is god awful. Especially at the rumored 1.84 Ghz compared to what Intel puts out now.

I doubt its ever going to beat a 7 series Radeon, which would be commonplace by the time it rolls around.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Machine Man 1992 said:
Lemme know when you've got a setup for under $350.
Okay by this point you're starting to move the goalposts.


PC gaming is not for everyone; I happily admit that. The best price/performance point is still a few hundred above a console of this coming generation. That being said, I'll never trade the ability to rebuild, repair, improve and even change the fundamental workings of the unit for anything.

Plus, bear in mind that most big gaming PC upgrades, when they do occur, tend to only do 3-4 items:

The Graphics Card
The CPU
The Motherboard
The RAM

Some times, only the Graphics Card needs to be updated and as long as its the same socket (currently PCI-16X) then you don't have to change much else. Memory is cheap so a good option is buy twice as much as you need and unless the new ram sockets happen, they can happily transfer to new motherboard/cpu combos.

Your first PC will always be the most expensive; because then you're buying keyboards, mice, monitors, hard drives, optical drives, the case, the OS and the power supply. However most of these devices are capable of seeing you through many other upgrades so you don't have to purchase them again. I've been using the same keyboard for nearly ten years, and the same monitors for nearly 5 years. The only reason I'm using new hard drives is because I wanted an SSD.

Also, the PC is vastly more versatile than a console. Sure, I've paid a good premium to play games. You know what else I can do? I can edit videos, music or images, I can write my own games, I can get mods, I can video chat with people, or voice chat or go to forums or I can type up a CV while a video plays on one screen, a download is running on another. That's a big one too; is the ability to do passive updates. If Win7 and half my steam library decide it's patch day, I can still do other things while the various downloading bars are filling up. Fuck I can run a business from my gaming rig, I can't do that with PS4 or X1.

If all you want is games, consoles represent the least money spent, and least fuss for maximum return. That is how it should be. A PC is a larger investment, but your capability is greatly expanded.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
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hermes200 said:
If I can take my copy of Descent or FX Fighter and make them run decently on my Windows 7, quad core PC, I will admit the superiority of the PC as a platform in terms of preserving past games for future generations. Otherwise, it might have some advantages, but it is not better than most consoles in that regard.
FX Fighter works with DOSBox [http://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?showID=1250&letter=F]. As Descent seems to, too [http://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?showID=998]. Or you can just grab a source port of it [http://www.dxx-rebirth.com/] that not only works on modern systems but works better. You also have the option of using a virtual machine and running the games in their (more) native environment. Slightly more complicated in that you need to get the OS but still an option.

I can't say how well they'd run but my guess would be - sufficient.

nogoodreason said:
Any chance of a list of all the games shown in that video? I recognised Witcher 2 and Portal 2 but none of the others. Particularly interested to know what that 'dude walking through frozen time mid-explosion' thing was as it looked really cool.
2:10 - Assassin's Creed: Revelations, I believe
2:31-2:44 - Legend of Grimrock
2:54-3:12 - don't know
4:20-4:31 - I think it's Army of Two but I may be mistaken
4:47-5:20 (the frozen times clip) - Quantum Break, I think it's an Xbox One exclusive, though it may be coming to other platforms - at least it was announced at Microsoft's press conference at E3. There is, I believe, a TV show, too and the game is based on it - you might be interested in that.
5:20-5:35 - Castle Crashers
5:35-5:56 - Killer Instinct
6:20-6:40 - Fez
 

infohippie

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Jenny Jones said:
People still order on day 1 and pre-order?!?!

I stopped doing that when Diablo 3, Mass Errect 3 and a few others failed to live up to expectations while simultaneously costing the earth and requiring stupid restrictions...oh just remembered Battlefield 3, stupid web browser launcher tied to origins. So yeah if you want to buy 1st day steam is probably not the best, though a lot of the time you can pre-load so it's ready bang on the day without doing anything.
CD Projekt RED are still around. It's pretty safe to preorder anything of theirs because you know they are going to look after their customers. You can bet your ass I'm going to be preordering The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk when they are available for preorder. And you (so far) can't go wrong preordering an Elder Scrolls game. But apart from Elder Scrolls and CDPR releases I'm fully with you on the "wait and see" strategy. Dragon Age 2 was the last Bioware game I preordered, and as things currently stand it might also be the last Bioware game I ever buy, too.
 

Subatomic

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Ultratwinkie said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
You get taxed by the EU if you use steam for some reason. They don't like steam and are willing to tax the hell of what you buy from them.

Yeah, I don't get why anyone would tax internet purchases either.

Some people try to get past the taxes by having an American sell them for cheap, but steam is legally bound to ban them from the service for tax dodging. A serious crime that can drag Valve into an EU court.
That's nonsense, there is no such thing as "EU-taxes". Each member state levies their own taxes, so by that logic Steam's prices should be different everywhere (which they aren't). Also, the UK is part of the EU too, and generally has much better prices than the countries using the ?. Steam is simply terrible for buying newish AAA games in most of the Euro-zone, as it is undercut by pretty much everyone, including Amazon, retail chains (which still sell a decent amount of PC games on the continent) and other digital stores.
 

Sonntam

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Akalabeth said:
Bix96 said:
Akalabeth said:
You're a hypocrite Jim Sterling, and this is the last time I will watch one of your videos.

Because if you actually gave a shit about console gaming and if you actually hold Steam and its ilk with the reverence that you suggest then you would be arguing for the console experience to improve, not to fucking stay the same.

If Microsoft is introducing new steam-like DRM into its console, then argue for the rest of the console experience to be improved to a steam like quality. Argue for better indie games, better prices, better everything.

But all people can do is ***** and complain so this next generation will be the same shit as the last one, 60 dollar games with slightly better graphics.

Congratulations. Your irrational fear has helped to further stagnate what is already a stagnant culture.


Because personally, I like to have a little FAITH in people, in companies, to improve the experience. It's easy to be a naysayer and to ***** and complain for views, but it's hard to actually push for positive change and to keep pushing for it. If Microsoft's plans were not good enough for people to buy the console, then push for them to improve the experience to a point where the plans become irrelevant as opposed to simply doing the unimaginative push for them to go back to status quo.
You are allowed to have as much faith as you want but the reason stuff like this scares people is because companies have already proven that they CAN NOT be trusted with these things besides only about three things in Microsoft's "Future of gaming" would have actually pushed the industry forward the rest would have sent it to the dark ages.
Yes "companies" cannot be trusted and yet Jim is saying trust companies like Valve and Projeck whatever (GOG.com). Again, it's a double standard.

I mean really, one of the reasons that Jim cites for Steam having more value than the consoles is the fucking trophies that Steam ripped off from Xbox Live? Really?

Fact is nothing Xbox was planning would have affected my gaming experience negatively in any way. I might be the exception given the fact I rarely trade in used games, but I wouldn't have noticed a difference.

If for example people had said "no used games? And still 60 dollars? Are you kidding me?" If they had pushed for more incentives to make the console more attractive then hey, maybe Microsoft could have been persuaded to drop first party titles to 50 dollars. Then Playstation could have been persuaded to follow suit. Then there'd be no used games but it wouldn't matter because the base price for games would have been as cheaper or cheaper than used games anyway and everyone would have profited.

Instead, Playstation does pretty much the same thing they did last time. And microsoft is forced to do pretty much the same thing as well.
You seem to imply that if we trust Microsoft it will improve our chances for not being disappointed? That Microsoft will add cheap sales simply out of good cheer, hey, why not?

Microsoft had plenty of time to show new innovative, cool features. So far we have seen family sharing (which is but a glorified demo), facebook connection and Kinect. Neither are very new or very impressive.

You ask people to wait and expect glory from Microsoft, but while Valve and Gog have proven themselves through the years: Microsoft didn't ever offer such low prices as Gog and Steam do. Once and once did Xbox servers go down, while people have learned that Steam servers stay always up.

People do not trust Microsoft, because they fail in every aspect that Steam and Gog excell at.

I love innovation, but given our experience with Microsoft I have troubles imagining what Microsoft could add to Xbox to make it appealing. Even Microsoft itself seems to be hazy on what they could offer to gamers.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Subatomic said:
Ultratwinkie said:
LaochEire said:
I don't really post on The Escapist, but can I just say that Steam is an absolute rip off when it comes to new games. In fact over in Ireland Gamestop can undercut Steam with a physical retail copy of a PC game by ?20 euro. I never understood the myth about Steam being this bastion of excellence and the main reason to own a PC.

Sure, it has those great sales and they are great, but if I want a game upon release I would have to wait up to a year before it becomes anyway affordable on Steam.

Honestly, with Steam. I really just don't get it. Someone enlighten me, please.
You get taxed by the EU if you use steam for some reason. They don't like steam and are willing to tax the hell of what you buy from them.

Yeah, I don't get why anyone would tax internet purchases either.

Some people try to get past the taxes by having an American sell them for cheap, but steam is legally bound to ban them from the service for tax dodging. A serious crime that can drag Valve into an EU court.
That's nonsense, there is no such thing as "EU-taxes". Each member state levies their own taxes, so by that logic Steam's prices should be different everywhere (which they aren't). Also, the UK is part of the EU too, and generally has much better prices than the countries using the ?. Steam is simply terrible for buying newish AAA games in most of the Euro-zone, as it is undercut by pretty much everyone, including Amazon, retail chains (which still sell a decent amount of PC games on the continent) and other digital stores.
The explanation steam gives for wonky prices in Europe is taxation. Might be regional or federal, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The taxes under cut any savings steam gives you.

Its a reason tax dodging in steam is even a thing.
 

Revolutionary

Pub Club Am Broken
May 30, 2009
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I get why people love gog, but steam has the sexiest client, everything just works from your desktop, and the selection of games and ease of browsing greatly exceeds other digital distribution systems.
 

wolfyrik

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Doom972 said:
I was hoping he would make a video about it. I gave up on explaining it on forums. Now I can just link to this video.

Andy of Comix Inc said:
So, basically, "PC is an open platform that needs the added security. Consoles are closed platforms that do not deserve any more security."

I'm still mad that retail PC games just come with Steam codes now. I remember being able to install... hell. Even Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once, and now everything is bolted to a single account instead. Fair enough, I guess, there's a demand for Steampowered games, but... yeah. I'm still annoyed about that.

I guess people like me installing Fallout 3 on multiple people's computers at once are sort of what justified that. Again, the openness of the PC platform dictates that gates have to be closed somewhere. The fact that you can just literally copy the files of old PC games over with absolutely no hassle at all really does make DRM a necessity, and since it is all circumvented eventually anyway, it makes making that DRM appealing in some way to buy into even more of a necessity. Steam's greatest achievement is that it has made people WANT games to use Steam; it has made people WANT a DRM-flavoured copy of their games. Huh.
As a supporter of Steam (maybe even a fan), I do agree that Steam exclusivity is bad for us, and that the retail option should remain. Sadly, it seems that publishers won't release a game on the PC without some anti-piracy measure, and Steam seems to be the most consumer-friendly that they'll accept.
Well precisely. I loathe to defend any kind of DRM but if it has to be done, I'd prefer it to be Steam rather than anything else I've seen so far. Such as Origin are just the spawn of satan and should never be allowed to see the light of day. I actually quite like steam, the sales and connectivity are pretty cool, the forums and data validation/repair tools are are damned useful and the community tools are available if you want to play a game along with your friends, even if you're in different parts of the world and on a single player game!

Once again Jim is right, the consoles don't need it and they abso-facking-lutely haven't done anything to deserve or demonstrate that they can be trusted with it. Infact, this xbox debacle only demonstrates to me that, quite the contrary, they absolutely can't be trusted.

PS. Jim I think you need a salute, something to further the theme and to give us an alternative way to demonstrate your all too frequent correct....ness.
You know like the film Cats and Dogs? "Cat's Rule!" type thing....
 

Subatomic

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Ultratwinkie said:
The explanation steam gives for wonky prices in Europe is taxation. Might be regional or federal, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The taxes under cut any savings steam gives you.

Its a reason tax dodging in steam is even a thing.
That they say it is so doesn't make it true, especially as it conspiciously mostly applies to AAA games. Case in point: Doublefine had no problem with adjusting the prices for their games on Steam after gamers complained about the unfair conversion rates between $, ? and £, and lots of indie / smaller games have a relatively fair conversion rate. I don't know whether it's Steam, the publishers or the retailers that insist on the $ = ? bullshit, but it certainly has little to do with taxes. (taxes do of course play a small part, as European prices are always including the VAT, in Steam's case most likely at the VAT rate of Ireland as that's where their European holding company is located).
 

jmarquiso

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Subatomic said:
Ultratwinkie said:
The explanation steam gives for wonky prices in Europe is taxation. Might be regional or federal, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The taxes under cut any savings steam gives you.

Its a reason tax dodging in steam is even a thing.
That they say it is so doesn't make it true, especially as it conspiciously mostly applies to AAA games. Case in point: Doublefine had no problem with adjusting the prices for their games on Steam after gamers complained about the unfair conversion rates between $, ? and £, and lots of indie / smaller games have a relatively fair conversion rate. I don't know whether it's Steam, the publishers or the retailers that insist on the $ = ? bullshit, but it certainly has little to do with taxes.
It's not taxes. Steam just doesn't handle multiple currencies very well, though it does seem to be due to publishers. AAA publishers do not adjust their prices for them nearly as much, whereas Indies seem to pay more attention to that.

Retailers seem to have more freedom to do so, probably to compete with Steam and Amazon.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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Yeah, I must be one of the morons who still don't get it either. I have used Steam since day one (HL2) and it annoyed the shit out of me then, and it annoys me now. And I still don't see why they get a free pass.

1) You don't own the game. You NEED Steam in order to play. Internet/Steam/Ban hammer comes down, you can't play anymore. Not to mention that my account is Australian, so no, the sales don't appeal near as much. GOG still shuns this DRM and ownership model: you pay for it, you download, it's yours.

2) Does anyone else not realize that Steam's DRM is actually WORSE than what XBONE had proposed in a way? So you check in every 24 hours. Right, you're gaming, your internet goes down, bang you have 24 hours to keep playing and hope the outage ends. If you're playing Steam, you're out. But I can switch to offline mode!! WRONG. You need to be online to do that! So all you can do is wait until your router or the internet or whatever is back on. The only thing "offline" mode is good for, is if you are going to travel with a laptop, or moving your desktop to some region (or room) which doesn't have connectivity, or if you can preempt your lack of internet.

Honestly, even for Steam, unless you are going multiplayer and they want to stop you from modding or cheating, that's fine. But otherwise, you should only need one authentication.
 

Magmarock

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hermes200 said:
Wait... you can migrate from gaming platform on PC? For FREE?

Since when?

EDIT: And System Shock 2 might not be the best example. Have you tried playing it on a modern OS? Good luck with that...
System Shock 2 on GOG works perfectly fine they patched it so that it would.

As for migration I think you miss heard. He meant meant that if you don't want to deal with Steam/Origin you can use GOG or Gamers Gate instead without paying anything. With consoles you're stuck with whatever provider they give you.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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You can also start Steam Offline, unless you need a multiplayer game, it won't require to be connected, so its DRM is not as orwellian as most people like to accuse.
 
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