Joe Biden backs away from a public option.

[crimson5pheonix]

I'm not a centrist

I haven't been able to see the difference in a good long while.

If you imagine a political spectrum of You - Silvanus - Biden - Romney - Rand Paul, if you can't come to an accommodation even with the people right next to you, you're doomed to accomplish nothing by default.

He's not right next to me though. My position is M4A today, a public option might be acceptable if it's done now and is a meaningful step forward. Silvanus's position is that it's not important right now. That's not even close to my position, and is in fact the position of the opposition. I'm not going to accommodate people who run counter to my goals. A different way to get there maybe, but just straight up denying one of the core fights? That's not adjacent to me and I don't support it.

 

[Silvanus]

I haven't been able to see the difference in a good long while.

This is because you consider any divergence whatsoever in methodology to be an unforgivable betrayal.

Silvanus's position is that it's not important right now.

No, it's fucking not.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is because you consider any divergence whatsoever in methodology to be an unforgivable betrayal.

I consider opposition view points as opposition, yes. Because it's not a divergence of methodology that I'm criticizing. M4A vs a public option vs a government apperatus to staff and run hospitals directly is a difference in methodology to achieve healtcare. Saying "no", is not a difference in methodology.

No, it's fucking not.

It was literally your first post in this thread, that it's not going to happen because it's not important right now, without good explanation for why.

 

[Revnak]

Yeah, it is. But the alternative isn't already in place, and will take a few months at the very least to establish (just like every public health service in the world has done). It's not an on-off, private-public switch. It's a huge undertaking.

Put it this way. Attlee and Bevan did not establish the NHS immediately after the 1945 election put them in power. It took 3 years. Does that mean it would be true for detractors to say they had "no plans" to implement one? Obviously not. It took a while, because these things do, and we got the NHS.

Ok, here’s something to note, the existing private supply chain and the enforcement thereof is creating massive issues for rollout right fucking now. Stuff like the arbitrary regulations on when you can get the vaccine, forcing the vaccine to only be accessible through some range of particular hospitals the state governments have made a deal with, etc, all is causing an absurd burden for vaccine rollout let alone production. People are dying to COVID in the US right now because we chose to do a privatized rollout. It was extremely dumb and now we’re paying an absurd cost and will continue to for likely the rest of the year.

 

[Silvanus]

I consider opposition view points as opposition, yes. Because it's not a divergence of methodology that I'm criticizing. M4A vs a public option vs a government apperatus to staff and run hospitals directly is a difference in methodology to achieve healtcare. Saying "no", is not a difference in methodology.

And I'm not saying no, for the umpteenth time. You're characterising a separate disagreement as refusal to support M4A, because everything becomes a fucking tiresome purity check.

I want the process to begin straight away. As soon as possible. But if you imagine that process is going to be completed in a matter of days, you're fooling yourself-- even with all the political will in the world, it is not possible to accomplish it in a couple of days.

And we cannot delay vaccine rollout. Even by days. Even by hours. That does need to happen literally immediately. You direct them to wait until the public option is established and functioning, then even if the process was started on minute one of Biden taking office, even if it was pushed through with every possible fibre of effort, that would mean a few weeks delay, and hundreds of thousands of people would avoidably die.

This is why I already advocated using some kind of executive action to repurpose existing private assets (stockpiles, supply chains, infrastructure, w/e) to deliver it. Take control of those as an emergency measure: eliminate the profit motive but make use of the infrastructure they have in place. And then, once the public option is in place-- which will have taken a number of weeks at the very shortest-- hopefully they could shift vaccine provision to that.

But hey-- the executive taking control of private assets and repurposing it for national use, without profit... sounds like centrism!

Ok, here’s something to note, the existing private supply chain and the enforcement thereof is creating massive issues for rollout right fucking now. Stuff like the arbitrary regulations on when you can get the vaccine, forcing the vaccine to only be accessible through some range of particular hospitals the state governments have made a deal with, etc, all is causing an absurd burden for vaccine rollout let alone production. People are dying to COVID in the US right now because we chose to do a privatized rollout. It was extremely dumb and now we’re paying an absurd cost and will continue to for likely the rest of the year.

Yes, all of this is true and agreed.

 

[Seanchaidh]

You direct them to wait until the public option is established and functioning, then even if the process was started on minute one of Biden taking office, even if it was pushed through with every possible fibre of effort, that would mean a few weeks delay, and hundreds of thousands of people would avoidably die.

You don't have to do that in order to pass M4A or a public option immediately..?

 

[Silvanus]

You don't have to do that in order to pass M4A or a public option immediately..?

You wouldn't have to delay anything to begin establishing the public option, that's right. I believe we should. But it'll unavoidably take time.

If you wanted to solely use public assets to distribute the vaccine, then that would necessitate a delay, because they're not in place and it's a huge administrative undertaking.

Remember that this thread is specifically about the mechanisms used to distribute the vaccine (despite the misleading title), not about what the healthcare system should be in general. I'm advocating the US use existing resources and infrastructure-- currently private, but perhaps taken under executive control by some kind of emergency measure-- to run the vaccination/COVID response until the public infrastructure is in place.

This makes me some kind of traitorous "centrist".

 

[tstorm823]

This makes me some kind of traitorous "centrist".

I'm pretty sure "not being a communist" did that to you.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I'm pretty sure "not being a communist" did that to you.

no

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And I'm not saying no, for the umpteenth time. You're characterising a separate disagreement as refusal to support M4A, because everything becomes a fucking tiresome purity check.

No, I'm saying you saying no is you saying no. You were pretty clear about how we need to delay this for the vaccine rollout, which has been explained to you multiple times doesn't even make sense.

I want the process to begin straight away. As soon as possible. But if you imagine that process is going to be completed in a matter of days, you're fooling yourself-- even with all the political will in the world, it is not possible to accomplish it in a couple of days.

That's why delaying would be a bad thing, stop asking for delays.

And we cannot delay vaccine rollout. Even by days. Even by hours. That does need to happen literally immediately. You direct them to wait until the public option is established and functioning, then even if the process was started on minute one of Biden taking office, even if it was pushed through with every possible fibre of effort, that would mean a few weeks delay, and hundreds of thousands of people would avoidably die.

As has been explained to you multiple times, the vaccine rollout has absolutely 0 to do with healthcare reform. Trying to tie the two is what centrists are doing to kill the meager public option.

This is why I already advocated using some kind of executive action to repurpose existing private assets (stockpiles, supply chains, infrastructure, w/e) to deliver it. Take control of those as an emergency measure: eliminate the profit motive but make use of the infrastructure they have in place. And then, once the public option is in place-- which will have taken a number of weeks at the very shortest-- hopefully they could shift vaccine provision to that.

But hey-- the executive taking control of private assets and repurposing it for national use, without profit... sounds like centrism!

Congratulations on being late to the game?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Can I just ask what label I supposedly have for my political affiliation? I was under the impression I was considered a centrist of some sort by everyone but the way all you seem to be using the term here doesn't fit if applied to me.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Can I just ask what label I supposedly have for my political affiliation? I was under the impression I was considered a centrist of some sort by everyone but the way all you seem to be using the term here doesn't fit if applied to me.

I just thought you were a nihilist of some flavor, I don't know.

 

[Kwak]

Can I just ask what label I supposedly have for my political affiliation? I was under the impression I was considered a centrist of some sort by everyone but the way all you seem to be using the term here doesn't fit if applied to me.

Being between two positions only makes you 'centrist' relevant to those positions, so being between liberal right and extreme right makes you right wing.

 

[Silvanus]

No, I'm saying you saying no is you saying no. You were pretty clear about how we need to delay this for the vaccine rollout, which has been explained to you multiple times doesn't even make sense.

That's why delaying would be a bad thing, stop asking for delays.

Underlining mine. This is a lie.

As has been explained to you multiple times, the vaccine rollout has absolutely 0 to do with healthcare reform. Trying to tie the two is what centrists are doing to kill the meager public option.

Jacobin Mag are centrists trying to kill the meagre public option? Alright, but you're the one who linked 'em.

Congratulations on being late to the game?

I said as much earlier already, actually; you ignored it. I've had to reiterate it because you appear to have hallucinated some alternative argument in its place, and correcting the record is a full-time job.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Underlining mine. This is a lie.

It was never going to be ready to go in time for the emergency vaccination provision, which needs to happen immediately.

But I also recognise that speed of response is the single most vital element right now, particularly during the vaccine rollout window. And I can comprehend that systemic overhaul during such a time could cause supply-chain delays that we really do not need right now.

But it's easy to see how vaccine rollout, which is now intensely time-sensitive, could be delayed by overhauling all the supply-chains mid-rollout.

Yeah, it is. But the alternative isn't already in place, and will take a few months at the very least to establish (just like every public health service in the world has done). It's not an on-off, private-public switch. It's a huge undertaking.

Put it this way. Attlee and Bevan did not establish the NHS immediately after the 1945 election put them in power. It took 3 years. Does that mean it would be true for detractors to say they had "no plans" to implement one? Obviously not. It took a while, because these things do, and we got the NHS.

And here's all the baseless nonsense you posted on just the first page. Now tell me how you aren't advocating for delaying healthcare reform?

I said as much earlier already, actually; you ignored it. I've had to reiterate it because you appear to have hallucinated some alternative argument in its place, and correcting the record is a full-time job.

You missed when this was done nearly a year ago already. The pumps have already been primed with money and the production act was already tapped back during the Trump administration. The vaccine is already paid for outside of the normal healthcare system and thus, overhauling the healthcare system would have no practical effect on the vaccine rollout.

People tried to tell you this multiple times but you ignored them.

Vaccine Rollout Moves Toward a Supply Snag

Plus, relief talks point to a checks and shots strategy.

prospect.org

As it turns out the bottleneck for the supply isn't going to be the government at all, basically no matter what Biden does now since it looks like the pharma companies won't be able to achieve their current contracts, let alone any new ones.

 

[Silvanus]

And here's all the baseless nonsense you posted on just the first page. Now tell me how you aren't advocating for delaying healthcare reform?

Actually read those statements. Don't jump to a conclusion because I haven't made the same noises as you.

What I've been saying from the start is that introducing a public option is not an immediate act. It's a colossal undertaking, which will take quite a while to complete, regardless of whether you start it on day one. It's realistic to envisage the process taking (at the least) weeks and (more realistically) months to complete. Now, vaccine distribution must begin immediately.

If we were to refuse to use any existing (currently private) assets & resources, it would necessitate a delay in the distribution. If we were to decide to utilise solely public resources, we would need to wait until the public system was fully implemented and functional. That's an unacceptable delay in my opinion.

That position does not necessitate delaying the beginning of the process to establish the public option. Obviously. The two processes can go on in tandem. That position also does not necessitate indulging the profit-making companies that currently run those assets & resources, hence why I stated early on that I'm in favour of some emergency measure allowing the executive to direct their usage.

You missed when this was done nearly a year ago already. The pumps have already been primed with money and the production act was already tapped back during the Trump administration. The vaccine is already paid for outside of the normal healthcare system and thus, overhauling the healthcare system would have no practical effect on the vaccine rollout.

If you think the paying for the medicine is even a fraction of a percent of the overall administrative burden for a project of this magnitude, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

Silvanus:

They can be done in tandem! Except they can't! Pick a position and stick with it please, for future reference at least. I can't deal with this, every time we argue your position changes a few pages later where you "clarify" that you didn't actually mean what you wrote, but something else. It's way too tiresome.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

You wouldn't have to delay anything to begin establishing the public option, that's right. I believe we should. But it'll unavoidably take time.

If you wanted to solely use public assets to distribute the vaccine, then that would necessitate a delay, because they're not in place and it's a huge administrative undertaking.

Remember that this thread is specifically about the mechanisms used to distribute the vaccine (despite the misleading title), not about what the healthcare system should be in general. I'm advocating the US use existing resources and infrastructure-- currently private, but perhaps taken under executive control by some kind of emergency measure-- to run the vaccination/COVID response until the public infrastructure is in place.

This makes me some kind of traitorous "centrist".

Oh no you're not a "Centrist"

You're now "Alt-right"

The buffet is over on the left, the toilets over the other side of the pit.

don't worry you'll fine plenty of people here likely support the idea of a public option but it's been deemed as not the "In" thing for the progressives hence being in this pit. I mean at least you got thrown in here for a political position and not merely thinking Battlefield V's changing history was dumb.

 

[Silvanus]

They can be done in tandem! Except they can't! Pick a position and stick with it please, for future reference at least.

"Pick a position", between the one I actually had and the one you imagined I had? I'll go with the one I actually had.

What's tiresome is endlessly being accused of writing shit I never wrote.

 

[tstorm823]

What's tiresome is endlessly being accused of writing shit I never wrote.

I'm pretty sure you're an honorary Republican now.