John Carmack Argues Against Native Linux Games

[TheEndlessGrey]

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

That guy created modern first person perspective and raycasting in games, is a self taught rocket scientist, helped make a homebrew VR helmet (that works better than anything in the market) and customizes Ferraris, as a hobby...

I would say he is the antithesis of a "lazy guy" and when he speaks, people listens.

Who also hates windows 8, as it turns out, just like everyone else. He just doesn't think Linux is a worthwhile use of resources.

http://www.neowin.net/news/ids-john-carmack-would-be-happy-if-windows-8-didnt-exist

 

[TheEndlessGrey]

And the MAJOR change since the days of Quake is the rise of Ubuntu..... (sounds like a game title) This is the first time that Linux is really falling under one major release and the majority of the software has become so easy to use nontechnical people can use it now.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Click on OS Version in the January 2013 table and tell me how much Ubuntu usage Valve, who is currently leading the Linux charge, has recorded from their own users? Yeah, that's a MAJOR change alright.

 

[hermes]

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

That guy created modern first person perspective and raycasting in games, is a self taught rocket scientist, helped make a homebrew VR helmet (that works better than anything in the market) and customizes Ferraris, as a hobby...

I would say he is the antithesis of a "lazy guy" and when he speaks, people listens.

Who also hates windows 8, as it turns out, just like everyone else. He just doesn't think Linux is a worthwhile use of resources.

http://www.neowin.net/news/ids-john-carmack-would-be-happy-if-windows-8-didnt-exist

He doesn't think Linux is not a worthwhile use of resources. He thinks support through emulation is a far better use of resources than porting for native support on different Linux distributions.

 

[Tumedus]

Even if you could make an argument that "more" people are using linux and thus a greater market share is available (link above suggests otherwise), part of the nasty truth is more people have multiple playable devices these days. So it isn't just whether enough people use linux, its whether enough people use linux and can't/won't use another OS somewhere else.

 

[tautologico]

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

I guess you didn't read what he wrote then. He said the development side of a port could be done quickly, but there are other issues and Zenimax is not interested.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

This is the guy who didn't even want to release the Mac and Linux versions that already exist of his older games on Steam. This article should surprise absolutely nobody.

 

[wgar]

We'll see after Steambox hits

Might change the demographics a bit

No it won't.

Also, as he stated in his reddit post they tried having linux at the forefront of 2 releases and both failed miserably as directX has too many advantages over openGL.

And the MAJOR change since the days of Quake is the rise of Ubuntu..... (sounds like a game title) This is the first time that Linux is really falling under one major release and the majority of the software has become so easy to use nontechnical people can use it now.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Click on OS Version in the January 2013 table and tell me how much Ubuntu usage Valve, who is currently leading the Linux charge, has recorded from their own users? Yeah, that's a MAJOR change alright.

That's one of the most biased statistics I've ever seen; only people who use steam, which is a very small minority of 'gamers' at large, let alone the fact that currently Ubuntu does not have any significant advantage (or indeed, any at all) over Windows, and specifically rewriting your entire game to break-even on a linux release is a silly notion considering WINE may have already done it for you.

 

[Zombie_Moogle]

We'll see after Steambox hits

Might change the demographics a bit

No it won't.

Also, as he stated in his reddit post they tried having linux at the forefront of 2 releases and both failed miserably as directX has too many advantages over openGL.

You realize you're basing this theory on the sales figures of 2 games from over 10 years ago, right?

Around that same time, we all would have said that no gamer would ever touch an Apple product

 

[Strazdas]

And when the amrket is changing to favor Linux and get away from the horror that it Windose?

Probably never. Linux is great at what it does, but gaming is not what it does.
Id lvoe all games to go openGL, i like it much mroe than DX, but that really isnt changing any time soon. esopecially with DX11 scam pushing.

Around that same time, we all would have said that no gamer would ever touch an Apple product

10 years ago i was still naive and thought people were generally smart, so yeah.

 

[Furism]

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

John Carmack can be called many things, but lazy isn't one of them. Also you don't have to "redo things" to support Linux, you just need to compile your libraries and executable for it. Even for switching between OpenGL and DirectX is not much of a problem, since they have all the Interfaces down etc... The problem is all of the extra QA and support you have to do.

But I still disagree with the man. When they tried the native Linux support it was way too early. Linux as a desktop is still not up there with MacOS and Windows, but it's progressing with great strides. Within a few years the user experience will have improved even more. And with Valve putting Steam on there, it'll make even more sense to release. Keep in mind that Linux is not just desktop, that can open the world of Linux-based consoles or OSes (like Android) as well.

 

[Slash2x]

And the MAJOR change since the days of Quake is the rise of Ubuntu..... (sounds like a game title) This is the first time that Linux is really falling under one major release and the majority of the software has become so easy to use nontechnical people can use it now.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Click on OS Version in the January 2013 table and tell me how much Ubuntu usage Valve, who is currently leading the Linux charge, has recorded from their own users? Yeah, that's a MAJOR change alright.

Yeah about that.... Valve is the SECOND gaming option in Ubuntu and it is in BETA, and you have to manually install it so not really going to pay attention to that. When they get an official release that is not in trial stages and can be installed from the Canonical software sources THEN I will pay attention to some figures.

Valve has nothing to do with the usage of Ubuntu. I made no comment about the gaming side I was pointing out the ease of use drawing more people to a single OS that is NOT charging the hell out of you for software.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

No, it makes no business sense like he said. They tried. It failed. He's all for offering the option for support, offering up the source code, so modders can make it functional to their hearts content.

Sensationalist article titles like this bother me. I guess it gets views.

And when the amrket is changing to favor Linux and get away from the horror that it Windose? Its laziness...since that is a default mode of most programers. . You can also call it efficiency but that only goes so far. LOL

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

Not necessarily... Directx is more supported on Windows then Opengl is on Linux. By more supported I mean that it is easier for developers to make stable releases across different platforms.

I know but the trouble is everyone is getting tired of windose locked setup and moving to more open platforms IE anything thats not DX.

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

No, it makes no business sense like he said. They tried. It failed. He's all for offering the option for support, offering up the source code, so modders can make it functional to their hearts content.

Sensationalist article titles like this bother me. I guess it gets views.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

There's no money to be gained in it, so allowing the community access to the tools they need to do it themselves is the next best thing and he should be commended for continuing to support that.

Times are changing you already have 2 Android/Linux consoles on the market, you have Steam which is a huge platform that's trying to get away from DX, now is not then and he as always is behind the damn times.

Yes I do know that. I was trying to say that Carmack has been a big advocate of Direct X (with his "games"(really just Tech demos..see Rage).

I am actually very happy that Steam is on Linux, I just worry about some of the games not playing because of outdated architecture (Direct3d).

Someone needs to force MS to make already published DX 9.x stuff open source while they can still license newer games based on 9+. If all else fails steam and such can buy the official stuff and port it themselves.

A bunch of enthusiasm for Linux

Here's the thing. People don't use Linux on a widespread basis, and Linux enthusiasts have been proclaiming for decades that the Linux revolution is just around the corner.

When you can show me that fully 33% of home desktops are running Linux for *all* of their PC needs, then we can talk about how supporting a Linux as a gaming platform might make any business sense.

If you want to make a case for converting all consoles to a Linux back-end that's one thing, but until people are using Linux as their desktop OS of choice en masse, supporting Linux ports is a colossal waste of developer resources. You don't have to be happy about that, but you need to come to grips with the reality of the situation.

More or less, but there is a very notable movement to to lunix/Android which can not be ignored.

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

That guy created modern first person perspective and raycasting in games, is a self taught rocket scientist, helped make a homebrew VR helmet (that works better than anything in the market) and customizes Ferraris, as a hobby...

I would say he is the antithesis of a "lazy guy" and when he speaks, people listens.

Who also hates windows 8, as it turns out, just like everyone else. He just doesn't think Linux is a worthwhile use of resources.

http://www.neowin.net/news/ids-john-carmack-would-be-happy-if-windows-8-didnt-exist

Actually but for a couple things Win8 works fine for games, whats bad is the mobile stuff begin called Win8 >laziness , I was being silly

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

I guess you didn't read what he wrote then. He said the development side of a port could be done quickly, but there are other issues and Zenimax is not interested.

Meh in a sense its laziness(easiness) but its mostly they do not have to so they can remain as crappy as ever.

And when the amrket is changing to favor Linux and get away from the horror that it Windose?

Probably never. Linux is great at what it does, but gaming is not what it does.
Id lvoe all games to go openGL, i like it much mroe than DX, but that really isnt changing any time soon. esopecially with DX11 scam pushing.

And yet they are changing, the only reason Lunix is a bad OS for gaming is because M$ will not open up DX and allow it to easily be ported and changed for Linux. As time moves on people are just ignoring DX alto gather and getting away from MS altogether. Between Steam and Oyua you are going to have Team fortress 2 level graphics or better easily being done on linux and non MS/NIN/Sony consoles. As prices for AAA games goes up there will be or a shift for cheaper non licensed to death alternatives to the current console war model. When it hits MS/Windows/Sony and Nin will be left out in the cold if they do not change their ways.

Lazy guy dose not want to have to redo things for an OS he gave up on.

John Carmack can be called many things, but lazy isn't one of them. Also you don't have to "redo things" to support Linux, you just need to compile your libraries and executable for it. Even for switching between OpenGL and DirectX is not much of a problem, since they have all the Interfaces down etc... The problem is all of the extra QA and support you have to do.

But I still disagree with the man. When they tried the native Linux support it was way too early. Linux as a desktop is still not up there with MacOS and Windows, but it's progressing with great strides. Within a few years the user experience will have improved even more. And with Valve putting Steam on there, it'll make even more sense to release. Keep in mind that Linux is not just desktop, that can open the world of Linux-based consoles or OSes (like Android) as well.

DOWN BOY DOWN, I was being facetious, efficiency is not the same as laziness but can be seen as such from a broad enough view.

In general my take on Carmack is he still smokes crack, DOOM 3 engine was to much for the time and they made they heavily damaged the DOOM brand by going in the mindless corridor shooter direction. Tho not all of that is his fault he still made a top heavy engine. Even IDtech 5 has tons of issues they seem to be ignoring but UE3 can be as bad at times. So I guess its more to do with the speed of consoles holding it back than anything else.

 

[Matthi205]

WINE... isn't all that good. You have to get executables with disabled DRM (e.g. cracks) to even run most games, and even then they only run at 5/6th the performance that they run at on Windows, Server 2008 R2 no less.
Flatout 2 WINE: 1600x900/Very High/4XMSAA/8XAF - ~30fps
Flatout 2 Win Server 2008R2 : 1920x1080/Very High/8XSSAA/16XAF - 60 fps with Vsync
Hardware: Celeron Dual Core E3400 2.6GHz LGA775 | 4GB DDR2-800 | AMD HD6670 1GB DDR3 | Foxconn P45AL

Native Linux ports would be sweet, but only if they were done halfway decently.

On the subject of id Tech 5: it seems to be a good engine, its only problem is that it asks for very very strong hardware, which kind of limits the audience. This coming from someone who can play Crysis 2 on decent settings. When the id Studio finally gets released we'll be able to see more clearly on this matter. For now, it's CryEngine 3 for me, because the UDK for UE3 crashes before it can even start.

 

[major_chaos]

Well I can kinda see where he's coming from
http://shimmie.shishnet.org/v2/_images/5511ba14b49591e0315e8ad9ed43b38a/1909%20-%20computer%20linux%20mac%20what%20windows.jpg

See most people look at that image and see a joke about Linux being versatile or something but the way I look at it, it fits because sure the insane muli-tool does more but it would also be a lot easier to cut yourself. i.e it does more, but its much more difficult to use, basically the same relationship between windows and Linux.

 

[Matthi205]

Well I can kinda see where he's coming from

Spoiler

http://shimmie.shishnet.org/v2/_images/5511ba14b49591e0315e8ad9ed43b38a/1909%20-%20computer%20linux%20mac%20what%20windows.jpg

See most people look at that image and see a joke about Linux being versatile or something but the way I look at it, it fits because sure the insane muli-tool does more but it would also be a lot easier to cut yourself. i.e it does more, but its much more difficult to use, basically the same relationship between windows and Linux.

The thing is, the image doesn't even fit properly for neither Windows nor Mac. It's correct for Linux, though: you're empowered to do whatever the fuck you want, and that includes screwing the system up beyond any point of repair.

While you can't do much with MacOS, it's rock solid (would be best represented by a rock IMO).

Windows, on the other hand, has the problem of being able to do much of the things Linux can do, but neither of them actually to any degree at which they might become useful. The only thing Windows has really given me is headaches and what I now consider a basic OS kit. It takes me 3 hours to get Windows set up properly, what with all the tweaks I have to apply and all the driver installation and mandatory program installation (CCCP,Notepad++,7zip) I have to do. Linux, on the other hand, takes up to one hour to install, and most of that time is spent configuring the GUI to my taste.

 

[TheEndlessGrey]

And the MAJOR change since the days of Quake is the rise of Ubuntu

(snip)

Yeah about that.... Valve is the SECOND gaming option in Ubuntu and it is in BETA, and you have to manually install it so not really going to pay attention to that. When they get an official release that is not in trial stages and can be installed from the Canonical software sources THEN I will pay attention to some figures.

Valve has nothing to do with the usage of Ubuntu. I made no comment about the gaming side I was pointing out the ease of use drawing more people to a single OS that is NOT charging the hell out of you for software.

When your original comment asserts that there has been a major change since the days of Quake as a challenge to the statement that id tried Linux and it wasn't worth it, in the context of a conversation about the benefit of dedicating resources to build a native Linux client for games, yes, you did comment about the gaming side.

My link to the valve hardware survey was meant to show that the best publicly available reference for what kind of PC's gamers are using indicates Ubuntu is just over 1.1% of users. Maybe Valve can grow that segment once their stuff gets out of beta, but don't expect anyone else to change their mind while the potential audience is a 1% slice of the money pie. For comparison, all reported versions of OSX sum to about 3.5% despite Macs significantly growing in popularity over the last few years. I'd be surprised if Ubuntu amounts to much more than that, at least within the next 2-3 years.

Yes, yes, OSX is only available for a fraction of Steam's library, so there's some self-reinforcing prejudice here that gamers will have a copy of windows because that's what games are made to support, therefore the numbers will continue to favor windows, therefore games will continue to be made with a preference for windows because that's where the biggest audience is, therefore gamers will continue to keep a copy of windows on hand. My point is, if OSX has had steamplay support for what, about 2 years(?), and still hasn't made much of an impact because very few developers are willing to invest resources in supporting it, Ubuntu is unlikely to fare much better. Not because people aren't using it, but because people aren't buying games for it. Yes, again, the catch-22. They can't buy something that doesn't exist, but it will never exist if they don't buy it.