John Carmack: PC Is Not the "Leading Platform" for Games

[Agayek]

Incoming rage in 3....2....1....

Does this game have any RPG elements or is it just a shooter in a post-apocaplytic setting?

Technically there's some RPG elements, but they're so barebones, they may as well not exist. You have an hp pool that can be increased by using a certain item you can craft with rare components, and you can upgrade your (and your vehicle's) armor, but that's it.

It's basically a straight shooter. It's very reminiscent of Borderlands, in all honesty. It's almost a straight copy, except without the eleventy bajillion weapon possibilities and talent trees. It makes up for it by having a much better story though. I thoroughly enjoyed playing through it, even if the ending is a bit anticlimactic.

 

[DP155ToneZone]

Some of the things Valve are known for:

- Mod support, as well as financial backing towards community content creation.
- Enormous content and official play servers, as well as quick and easy dedicated private server support
- True perfection of the Free-to-play model.
- Generous engine licensing.
- Revised SDK packs for modders every year or so.
- Enormous, and free, content patches
- Graphical savvy-ness and flexibility that ensures that the Source engine can practically be run on a toaster, let alone a new computer (unlike Rage).
- Technical support for all of their back catalog.
- GABEN

Valve are not PC-centric, simply put.

Yeah, uh-huh. Sure.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Well, yes, effort is more important than running on a powerful system. However, Carmack's condescending view of PC gaming is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Companies see PC as a significantly smaller market, so they put less effort in, shit like this keeps happening, people get sick of it and buy a console, and PC actually becomes a significantly smaller market.

 

[Still Life]

Some of the things Valve are known for:

- Mod support, as well as financial backing towards community content creation.
- Enormous content and official play servers, as well as quick and easy dedicated private server support
- True perfection of the Free-to-play model.
- Generous engine licensing.
- Revised SDK packs for modders every year or so.
- Enormous, and free, content patches
- Graphical savvy-ness and flexibility that ensures that the Source engine can practically be run on a toaster, let alone a new computer (unlike Rage).
- Technical support for all of their back catalog.
- GABEN

Valve are not PC-centric, simply put.

Yeah, uh-huh. Sure.

+50 points for missing the point.

The quality of service Valve commits through Steam is irrelevant and they have the means to do so.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Meh, PCs will rise again. We see this trend over and over and over in technology: someone comes up with something they can do on a multipurpose device, someone recognizes that making a separate product dedicated to just that thing will allow for a cheaper and simpler experience, and then eventually it gets reintegrated with other things.

Look at MP3 players: first someone figured out how to play MP3s on a computer, then someone realized that a stand-alone player could be much more convenient, then that got integrated with another device (typically cell phones).

It might not be simple reintegration with the PCs we know of today, but I would be very surprised if consoles were still around by the end of my lifetime.

Edit: To be clear, we're not necessarily ready for the reintegration yet. Right now, Carmack is probably right and the fact that consoles are currently the leading platform is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[AngryPants]

In fact Nvidia drivers ARE still in beta But it's a very common thing with PC releases to have beta drivers to run them.

And while OpenGL driver updates are nice from both AMD and NVidia as a result of software vs.hardware developers showdown, it's really a technology that lost its stand quite a few years ago (for mainstream gaming market anyway). I'd be severely surprised if a major movie studio goes for HD-DVD release ignoring Blu-Ray media and end up blaming video-player manufacturers for not supporting it...

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

Read that link. I need to sleep, but it gives you a great deal of information on exactly why OpenGL isn't the top API for gaming.

Well, I'm not arguing that OpenGL is worse than DirectX nor the other way around. I'm simply stating that it's a walking corpse thanks to all the effort from Microsoft. Doesn't really matter if the patient died due to bad surgery or no surgery, he's still dead and for as long as Microsoft has such an impact on IBM-PC compatible hardware/software, that most probably won't change. We can argue all night, if perhaps voxel-based graphical engines are even better for the future, but reality offers little to no reason to swim against the flow.


I've just tested Rage patch with latest Nvidia WHQL driver (without updated OpenGL) and it works fine after update as well. So for NVidia, there were no driver problems whatsoever and there's no one to blame but the developer -> id Software.
Oh... and there's something Johnie said just few months ago, you might find interesting:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-directx-better-opengl/

 

[Ympulse]

*Marks checklist*
And so Id joins the ranks of Crytek, Bethesda, Bioware, and most recently of all Blizzard in the modern age and are better for it.

And are are helping to make gaming the stagnent place it is... Oh, look another FPS.

Your point would hold some merit if we weren't talking about id. Ya know, the guys that INVENTED the genre.

 

[Saelune]

Dismissing and otherwise disingenuously underestimating the power that the PC holds over the market is directly shooting your profits in the proverbial foot.

Why don't you ask Valve how much their PC-centrism is hurting profits, hmm?

Don't forget bad PR. I mean, he said that he would anger people by saying what he did, so why did he even say it in the first place? All that's going to happen is you annoy the PC crowd even more than they already have because 'LOL thay dont mattar' -.-

I would rather companies NOT pander to simply make sales. Would also help if the PC crowd were not filled with stuck up snobs. PC gamers could either sit on their imaginary throne, and put down consoles, or atleast accept that consoles have different kinds of advantages that help them get around better. That I dont have to install my game to play it is kinda a big deal.

 

[kurokenshi]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

 

[Project_Omega]

This is Bullshit, all of this. Seriously...

How can he even say such a thing? Not only has he flipped the other half of his cutsomer base, which is the PC, but he also failed to give a proper reason for his game's failure to adapt to other systems other than the Console. Is it really that hard to make the pc version, how different can it be from the console anyway?

Valve managed to get Portal 2 from the PC onto the console and Vice Versa without any major problems like this. Why can't they do it?

I was thinking of buying the game when I saw the trailers, it was like Borderlands but without the really weird graphics and Item colours (which made it look like WoW).

Now, after him basically going "Computer don't matter, screw them all, we didn't screw up. PCs did" I am not going to buy it.

I am going to stick with PC gaming for the rest of my life, and its the game developers that have to adapt to suit my needs (as a customer) and not the other way.

 

[twiceworn]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

but you will you ALL WILL!!!!!!!!
there may be one it ten of all the people here who say "i will never buy another one of his games" who actually means it and of those half will change their mind when they see a game they really want so please i beg all here to stop lying about "won't be buying your games anymore"
NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU!!
say that Mr.Carmack is an asshole which he is, say that you are angry, which you are but don't say "i will never buy your games again" when if he makes a new title and you wait till you find out it will work on your pc and you find out it will YOU WILL GET IT

 

[bificommander]

Okay, QA tests should not be based on custom drivers that only you own and you didn't properly test guys. And don't include "Well, PCs don't matter" in your explanation as to how such a blatant problem got past your testing group. If PCs really don't matter to you anymore, don't release the game for the PC. PC gamers won't like that announcement much either, but once you take PC gamer's money in exchange for your product you have an obligation to make that product functional. It no longer has anything to do with 'PC-gamers snobs' complaining you don't like their platform enough, and into neglect of paying customers who ARE entitled to something better than a broken product and a message that they aren't important enough anymore for Carmack to particularly care.

I personally will hang on to my gaming PC, partly because I enjoy 4X and RTS games which you can't really get on consoles and partially because I think the PC is still a better source of inovation than consoles are.

 

[Vuljatar]

He's right, sadly. It's not the leading platform, it's just the best one. And more and more people are realizing that--and one day it will be the leading platform.

 

[kurokenshi]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

but you will you ALL WILL!!!!!!!!
there may be one it ten of all the people here who say "i will never buy another one of his games" who actually means it and of those half will change their mind when they see a game they really want so please i beg all here to stop lying about "won't be buying your games anymore"
NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU!!
say that Mr.Carmack is an asshole which he is, say that you are angry, which you are but don't say "i will never buy your games again" when if he makes a new title and you wait till you find out it will work on your pc and you find out it will YOU WILL GET IT

True some of us will still buy the game, however I'm not one of them case and point I still have not bought or played Modern Warfare 2. I'm sorry but when a developer releases a broken game and can't take responsibility for the poor QA then said developer/publisher has lost me as a customer.

 

[twiceworn]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

but you will you ALL WILL!!!!!!!!
there may be one it ten of all the people here who say "i will never buy another one of his games" who actually means it and of those half will change their mind when they see a game they really want so please i beg all here to stop lying about "won't be buying your games anymore"
NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU!!
say that Mr.Carmack is an asshole which he is, say that you are angry, which you are but don't say "i will never buy your games again" when if he makes a new title and you wait till you find out it will work on your pc and you find out it will YOU WILL GET IT

True some of us will still buy the game, however I'm not one of them case and point I still have not bought or played Modern Warfare 2. I'm sorry but when a developer releases a broken game and can't take responsibility for the poor QA then said developer/publisher has lost me as a customer.

thank god for you then kidding aside it really annoys me when a publisher or game company does something crap and people all line up to say "I WILL NEVER BUY, YOU HAVE LOST A SALE" then buy the next game anyway because over time anger fades and at the end of the day games are fun and no one wand to deprive themselves of fun to get to a person when they know everyone else is STILL BUYING. it is why this guy said what he did and knows he will get away with it

 

[kurokenshi]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

but you will you ALL WILL!!!!!!!!
there may be one it ten of all the people here who say "i will never buy another one of his games" who actually means it and of those half will change their mind when they see a game they really want so please i beg all here to stop lying about "won't be buying your games anymore"
NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU!!
say that Mr.Carmack is an asshole which he is, say that you are angry, which you are but don't say "i will never buy your games again" when if he makes a new title and you wait till you find out it will work on your pc and you find out it will YOU WILL GET IT

True some of us will still buy the game, however I'm not one of them case and point I still have not bought or played Modern Warfare 2. I'm sorry but when a developer releases a broken game and can't take responsibility for the poor QA then said developer/publisher has lost me as a customer.

thank god for you then kidding aside it really annoys me when a publisher or game company does something crap and people all line up to say "I WILL NEVER BUY, YOU HAVE LOST A SALE" then buy the next game anyway because over time anger fades and at the end of the day games are fun and no one wand to deprive themselves of fun to get to a person when they know everyone else is STILL BUYING. it is why this guy said what he did and knows he will get away with it

Gamer hypocrisy is a different debate altogether. But people have the right to change their minds. Like I've said before my issue with iD is that they are not taking responsibility for the problems with the PC port of RAGE. My other problem is the serious lack of support from the console community on this subject. I just don't see how people can stand up for iD in this situation.

 

[twiceworn]

Amazing how even when the Developer is in the wrong, the console guys still find a way to call the PC guys "Elitist" & "Entitled".

OT: Thanks Mr.Carmack won't be buying your games anymore!

but you will you ALL WILL!!!!!!!!
there may be one it ten of all the people here who say "i will never buy another one of his games" who actually means it and of those half will change their mind when they see a game they really want so please i beg all here to stop lying about "won't be buying your games anymore"
NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOU!!
say that Mr.Carmack is an asshole which he is, say that you are angry, which you are but don't say "i will never buy your games again" when if he makes a new title and you wait till you find out it will work on your pc and you find out it will YOU WILL GET IT

True some of us will still buy the game, however I'm not one of them case and point I still have not bought or played Modern Warfare 2. I'm sorry but when a developer releases a broken game and can't take responsibility for the poor QA then said developer/publisher has lost me as a customer.

thank god for you then kidding aside it really annoys me when a publisher or game company does something crap and people all line up to say "I WILL NEVER BUY, YOU HAVE LOST A SALE" then buy the next game anyway because over time anger fades and at the end of the day games are fun and no one wand to deprive themselves of fun to get to a person when they know everyone else is STILL BUYING. it is why this guy said what he did and knows he will get away with it

Gamer hypocrisy is a different debate altogether. But people have the right to change their minds. Like I've said before my issue with iD is that they are not taking responsibility for the problems with the PC port of RAGE. My other problem is the serious lack of support from the console community on this subject. I just don't see how people can stand up for iD in this situation.

simple, SOMEONE IN A POSITION OF POWER SAID FUCK PC GAMERS!!!!
and the knee jerk reaction of anyone TOO POOR TO AFFORD THREE CONSOLES PLUS A HIGH END COMPUTER(PEOPLE WHO SUCK)is to say YAY we are validated

 

[adamtm]

My other problem is the serious lack of support from the console community on this subject. I just don't see how people can stand up for iD in this situation.

Its because they seriously think its not their problem. If the situation was the other way around you'd see them review-bombing Rage on metacritic and every reviewer would rant about it all week.

However as it stands they just don't care and think this is some silly "PC gamer" issue where we are butthurt about graphics.

Failing to see that this is a systemic failure of game-development and corporate ignorance.

In the span of the next few years we will start to see high profile titles developed for PC as the lead platform, this cycle has already been started with Witcher 2 and Hard Reset. Then when suddenly PC ports show up on Xbox where the controls are shitty we will see a big bruhaha from the console-crowd how devs are diminishing consoles.

Except the problem doesn't lie with console vs. PC but QA and Dev-mismanagement. Games do not need to be developed parallel for PC and console to work and to work well (the myth that every dev is trying to shove at us), look at Witcher, there the lead platform was PC yet the game-design was clearly set out to be for console.

 

[kurokenshi]

My other problem is the serious lack of support from the console community on this subject. I just don't see how people can stand up for iD in this situation.

Failing to see that this is a systemic failure of game-development and corporate ignorance.

Except the problem doesn't lie with console vs. PC but QA and Dev-mismanagement. Games do not need to be developed parallel for PC and console to work and to work well (the myth that every dev is trying to shove at us), look at Witcher, there the lead platform was PC yet the game-design was clearly set out to be for console.

I agree with you on those points. It's not about the game being a port, it's about the lack of QA involved.

 

[MonkeyPunch]

I see a bit of a catch 22 thing going on here.

- PC multi-platform games are in general bad console ports which don't get the care and attention that their counterparts do.
- PC multi-platform games sell less than console games.
- Wonder why games don't sell as well on PC.
Rinse. Repeat.


I can't believe that it's come to the point where even id release lacklustre ports which haven't been given the care or attention they deserve and then expect no criticism and full price sales.
*mini-sigh*