John Williams and why he isnt a great composer.

[Oldmanwillow]

I was watch extra credits and this topic entered my mind. I am not trying to flame and please read my whole post before you respond.

I am a music major and i have spent my whole life trying to understand music/prefect it. (Yes I know either isn't possible) John William isn't a highly skilled or talented composer like everyone believe him to be. My main argument for is that while he does write a good melody he doesnt do anything with it. ill use the Indiana Jones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVNNhBtBbOs theme song as an example for this but all of his works fall under this same category. While we do have a pretty memorable melody what the harmony and rhythm behind it is very unimaginative and quite boring. let me ask you what does it do besides beat out a basic rhythm and the basic chord. This isnt so bad a lot of good composer suffer from this but what makes it worse is the fact he does very little to change up the theme besides put it in a different key. Wheres the variation? wheres the augmentation or diminution (to make the melody longer or shorter) why cant he find a good way to meld the fast and the slow section together? So why are we fine with this as listeners? so if something as a good melody we are willing to accepted all its faults and phrase it? Do you want to know the kicker John Williams Only writes the melody of a piece he hires out other composers to do everything else. He is supposed to be the most skilled composer of my generation? I am the only person who finds this unacceptable? in college we never play him and we use him as an example of bad writing in some cases. He isn't skilled, and he doesn't have the skill enough to write something that isn't a part of a movie score. tell me honestly would you even know of the imperial march if it wasn't a part of the star wars movies?

Now i want to show an example of good music writing. I will use a melody that everyone knows. Its from Brahms symphony 2. Its the famous lullaby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcqHxnGfV7c is probably how most of us know the tune (this isn't my example piece but i am just showing the melody that we all know). Great melody isn't it. Reminds us all of pleasant childhood days or of sleeping. If we listen to the original symphony where it came from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UccOlCBcIs8&feature=PlayList&p=085728D7F5CD456E&index=0 (listen to the first 5 minutes please) we dont even hear that famous melody until 2:50 seconds into it It starts of with a complete different melody and it blends into the lullaby so beautifully. This as a piece goes place and does so many wonderfully things with the variation on said melody. The harmoys almost sound as if the were the melody them selves and the whole thing is just well written from every standpoint. Chords are complex but enjoyable. melody is simple but the varations end up making it complex as well.

Forgive spelling errors (i did proof this but at the end of the day i am not a good speller)

 

[Space Spoons]

But... But... But Star Wars, dude. Star Wars.

 

[tomtom94]

Often truly 'great' (ie critically revered) stuff is ignored by the public.

The fact is, the guy does a good melody and frankly that's all most people want.

See also: Perry, Bieber et al.

 

[DarthLurtz]

First main issue is that of all composers who write music for mediums such as video games and movies: They have to write pieces that go with what's on screen.

Maybe the music needs to wait an exact amount of time before the next event in the movie. It needs a "holding pattern" of sorts.

Also, obligatory "You go write a song," blah blah blah.

EDIT: Tomtom, you did not just compare John Williams to Justin Bieber.

 

[Hippobatman]

Each to one's own.

His melodies catch the listener, and they are, as you said, tunes that are associated with movies. But that's not a bad thing. Star Wars is great, Indiana Jones is great and Jurassic Park is great, and the one of the common grounds in those movies are the stellar soundtracks.

They are a part of those movies, without them they would lack something significant. The composer wrote those tracks (given that your statement is true, at least he did some writing), and that makes him a good melodic writer in my eyes.

Say what you will about him, you're entitled to it, but I like what he's done with the aforementioned movies, and I regard him as a good composer.

 

[discordance]

Yeah, Brahms is better.

On the other hand, the moment I read the title of this thread the Star Wars theme started running through my head, and I had to run off and play it before I could finish reading.

Brahms rarely has this effect on me.

 

[Jack and Calumon]

See also: Perry, Bieber et al.

Don't know anyone called Perry besides Matthew C. Perry and I also know of the Pear Cider. How do they compare to Bieber?

OT:
Gonna disagree with you for the fact the songs are catchy, easy to remember and people will know it when they hear it. Plus they're, you know, good songs.

Calumon: Jack is not a music critic. XD

 

[tomtom94]

EDIT: Tomtom, you did not just compare John Williams to Justin Bieber.

No, but I compared the principle. A catchy melody will make up for most shortcomings of a musical piece and generally the public don't care about harmony.
It's why Bieber is successful, and it's why the OP was complaining about John Williams.

See also: Perry, Bieber et al.

Don't know anyone called Perry besides Matthew C. Perry and I also know of the Pear Cider. How do they compare to Bieber?
Calumon: Jack is not a music critic. XD

I find it strange that for an artist who seems to be everywhere at the moment no-one seems to realise when I'm talking about KATY Perry!

 

[Ham_authority95]

Sorry, but WHO?

EDIT: Eh, each person has different opinions on who makes good music and whatnot.

Most people don't pay attention to the composers of scores anyway, so whatever.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

See also: Perry, Bieber et al.

Don't know anyone called Perry besides Matthew C. Perry and I also know of the Pear Cider. How do they compare to Bieber?

OT:
Gonna disagree with you for the fact the songs are catchy, easy to remember and people will know it when they hear it. Plus they're, you know, good songs.

Calumon: Jack is not a music critic. XD

Parry Gripp?

He uses basic, simple melodies.

 

[DarthLurtz]

EDIT: Tomtom, you did not just compare John Williams to Justin Bieber.

No, but I compared the principle. A catchy melody will make up for most shortcomings of a musical piece and generally the public don't care about harmony.
It's why Bieber is successful, and it's why the OP was complaining about John Williams.

Yeah, but when someone says, "Oh, I don't like apples, but everyone else does. Oranges are so much better," you don't say, "Apples appeal to the common denominator, like Justin Bieber."

Apples are fine fruits (like Justin Bieber HEY-O) that have lasted in popularity for years, comparing them to a current pop singer like Bieber is unfair and misleading.

 

[Baby Tea]

While we do have a pretty memorable melody what the harmony and rhythm behind it is very unimaginative and quite boring. let me ask you what does it do besides beat out a basic rhythm and the basic chord. This isnt so bad a lot of good composer suffer from this but what makes it worse is the fact he does very little to change up the theme besides put it in a different key. Wheres the variation? wheres the augmentation or diminution (to make the melody longer or shorter) why cant he find a good way to meld the fast and the slow section together?

Wait wait, are you saying that something has to be more complex for it to be really great?
John Williams is a great composer, and he is great because of his simplicity.

He certainly isn't he greatest composer, but he is very excellent.
Your 'education' has opened your eyes to things that 90% of everyone else wouldn't notice or even care about. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means you can see area for improvement where other people just are quite happy with it.

I work as a radio producer, making commercials and promos for a radio station. I listen to other radio station imaging and commercials, and I'll complain about audio quality, poor scripts, bad reads, poor transitions, piss-poor promos and imaging, bad choice of imaging voice, etc. Do you know who else hears that? Other producers, and that's it. My wife has no idea what I'm complaining about, because she has no idea.

It doesn't make those other commercials terrible, just terrible to me because I know better. Everyone just shrugs. How can they complain about something they don't know much about?

Likewise, you might be paying attention to the bass-line or percussion of Indiana Jones, and everyone else is just humming the melody.

So what is your response? Make a pointless thread on the internet trying to get everyone to agree with your opinion of a well-received composer because you took some classes and think you know better then a guy who has been doing this for decades?

Or just let people enjoy what they enjoy! Heaven forbid we allow people to have differing opinions on something as subjective as music.

Geez.

 

[OreoDoublestuff]

First main issue is that of all composers who write music for mediums such as video games and movies: They have to write pieces that go with what's on screen.

Maybe the music needs to wait an exact amount of time before the next event in the movie. It needs a "holding pattern" of sorts.

Then you've got the Halo theme. As was touched on in Extra Credits, The main portion of the song is heavily layered and is pretty complex for a "Marine shoots a bunch of aliens" game. Yet, in all the times I've heard it in game, in the various permutations it's had, it's never felt out of place. I like John too, but he's got no excuse if he's supposed to be a great composer.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

Umm, he is not a great composer because you don't like the melodies? Because they are too simplistic?

How does that matter? They sound good. They are all distinct.

so if something as a good melody we are willing to accepted all its faults and phrase it?)

Yes. Becayse it's a good melody. Especially when the faults listed are

he does very little to change up the theme besides put it in a different key.

rhythm behind it is very unimaginative and quite boring.

If it sounds good, nobody cares and nobody should care. You could rhythm the hell out of your melody - if it doesn't sound good, that matters not.

 

[Baby Tea]

Parry Gripp?

He uses basic, simple melodies.

I LOVE PARRY GRIP!
Seriously, that guy is awesome.
IT's not epic music, or something I would walk down the aisle to, but man...it's simply catchy.
I love that guy.

 

[DarthLurtz]

Also, his use of lietmotif is really where a lot of quality comes in. He can create a theme for every character and fit it into any part of the score.

Think about how many times in Jaws you heard "DUH-DUM" without the entire theme playing.

Just a little tease, that let's you know something's up.

Actually, now that I think about it, Left 4 Dead does this as well, whenever a Special Infected spawns nearby.

 

[slarrs]

Long story short?
Most people don't care about that. They remember the melody to Star Wars and Jurassic Park.
Neither of those are something most people would say is their preferred style of music. They're one shots: without their associated film, they're nothing. They're not great songs, they're memorable songs. And thats what movies (and games) used to need. You probably don't want to listen to the Mario theme 24 hours a day, but you think of Mario before the first measure is over, and then you don't focus and the music, you focus on the game.

 

[Neofishie]

Has John Williams is famous for his music in movies.

Similar to what the EP crew said, music in a movie needs to work around the important aspect of the medium. For movies, it's the visuals. And when I am watching something, I'm not going to break my attention away from Arnold Schwarzenegger and his rescue team trying to escape the Predator to try to plot out the various movements and layers of the music playing.

To me, John Williams has been able to create music that not only reinforces the visuals, melds into the action, and builds up the scope and grandeur of what I'm seeing, but also made me sit up and pay attention to the music itself.

That's the William's touch to me. Creating music that works so well that the image on the film and music on the soundtrack have been fused together into something greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Vrach]

Sorry mate, but I'd argue music's in the ear of the behearer

Music theory is all well and good and you can argue what his work is composed of and how it's varied or not. But the fact is, when John Williams' music plays, I don't sit there thinking "this isn't good". I sit there with a feeling of grandeur and chills running up my spine. If that's not enough for you, fair enough, but personally it's one of, if not the best feelings I can get from listening to music.

 

[Amethyst Wind]

You can dissect the theory of music as much as you want, and you shall since you're studying it, but to us laymen, all that matters is whether or not it sounds good. John Williams has achieved great success in the public forum because his music is well liked.

Honestly this is coming across as a bit of an 'intellectual's rant', which is a slippery slope into elitist douchebag-ism.

Theory is fine, but it is the practical performance that matters. What John Williams does in practice works, in which case the theoretical shortcomings can be forgiven.