John Williams and why he isnt a great composer.
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And this is why Eternal Sonata has possibly one of the best soundtracks ever, because it features some delicious compositions by Chopin.
On the note of John Williams... well I didn't even know Jurassic Park has a soundtrack and I've always found Indie too boring to watch, so my only example is Star Wars. Let's face it, had it not been glued to Star Wars, his music would be quite boring. The Imperial March has carries its powerful vibes in that it's associated with Mr. Vader and the Empire.
My opinion is this: I like what I like and what I don't like I listen to. Sure John William's music may be catchy, but so is gonorrhea.
On the note of John Williams... well I didn't even know Jurassic Park has a soundtrack and I've always found Indie too boring to watch, so my only example is Star Wars. Let's face it, had it not been glued to Star Wars, his music would be quite boring. The Imperial March has carries its powerful vibes in that it's associated with Mr. Vader and the Empire.
My opinion is this: I like what I like and what I don't like I listen to. Sure John William's music may be catchy, but so is gonorrhea.
did you know that the indiana jones theme is merely the starwars theme but in reverse, seriously.Oldmanwillow said:
the point that he was making was that williams was a successful composer and a renowned one because he makes music that people can remember, and the way he does that is by focusing on a catchy melody and then building around it. He used Williams as an example because there are a MULTITUDE of themes that he's composed that people instantly recognize, that was sort of the point.
his actual aptitude at composing more then melodies is definitely ripe for debate, but the core of the argument in the Extra Credits episode isn't.. John Williams is one of the most well known modern composers because he composes music that people hum for years and years.
his actual aptitude at composing more then melodies is definitely ripe for debate, but the core of the argument in the Extra Credits episode isn't.. John Williams is one of the most well known modern composers because he composes music that people hum for years and years.
You sure you wouldn't recognize this if you heard it?Azure-Supernova said:
From :45 on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8zlUUrFK-M
John Williams is the 20th century's Johann Strauss. He composes music for light popular entertainment ("Die Fledermaus" was considered "light entertainment" in the 19th century---my gods, how far we have fallen!) and does very well at it.
In a hundred years, the Imperial March and the Indiana Jones theme will still have a place in concerts of 20th century orchestral music, the same way the Vienna New Year's concert features the overture from Die Fledermaus, Unter Donner und Blitz, and the Tritsch-Tratsch Polka.
With those standards satisfied, Williams has assured a place in music history, surely an accomplishment worthy of a lifetime.
In a hundred years, the Imperial March and the Indiana Jones theme will still have a place in concerts of 20th century orchestral music, the same way the Vienna New Year's concert features the overture from Die Fledermaus, Unter Donner und Blitz, and the Tritsch-Tratsch Polka.
With those standards satisfied, Williams has assured a place in music history, surely an accomplishment worthy of a lifetime.
Try to imagine Star Wars without John Williams....in my opinion Williams alone deserves half the credit for making those movies great! (imho)
One problem with comparing Williams to classical composers is Williams is writing to supplement another medium, being film. As you will probably learn in the course of your studies, the demands of music when written for film and TV can be quite different, and of necessity may require distinctly different elements than a stand-alone piece would.
For a good contrast, go listen to Williams' rendition of The Empire Strikes Back. Listen to the music involving the Flacon/TIE Fighter chase scenes in the asteroid field and the escape from the giant space slug....that is amazing stuff, brilliant I daresay. I've never gotten tired of listening to his orchestration on that. At least part of the reason is because the music works in synergy with the film itself.
Now, for a related contrast, see if you can find the Boston Pops Orchestra's rendition of the "virtual soundtrack" to Shadows of the Empire, a film tie-in. This soundtrack was written for the "media tie in to a movie that never was" event of Shadows of the Empire about 10-12 years ago (whenever that game and book came out). Thus, the orchestration of the soundtrack was written primarily to evoke the feeling of "this belongs to a movie that we haven't see." It is nice music, but lacks all the zest and oomph of Williams' own orchestration; in fact, the best part of the soundtrack happens to be one that takes one of Williams' own themes from TESB and riffs from it. Anyway, the point is that it is good music, but it is far less interesting than Williams' contributions to Star Wars precisely because it both lacks Williams and the accompanying visual media to make the whole package larger than the sum of its parts.
For qualifications: I have none other than loving music. I am especially fond of minimalism and Philip Glass is my favorite performer/composer; I'd be very curious about what you think of his music (and minimalism in general).
EDIT: My best advice is to recognize not only Williams' weaknesses, but his strengths, too, because he obviously has them in spades; if you want to be better than the best, you gotta understand what put them there, and John Williams is an excellent case study for beautiful, successful music.
One problem with comparing Williams to classical composers is Williams is writing to supplement another medium, being film. As you will probably learn in the course of your studies, the demands of music when written for film and TV can be quite different, and of necessity may require distinctly different elements than a stand-alone piece would.
For a good contrast, go listen to Williams' rendition of The Empire Strikes Back. Listen to the music involving the Flacon/TIE Fighter chase scenes in the asteroid field and the escape from the giant space slug....that is amazing stuff, brilliant I daresay. I've never gotten tired of listening to his orchestration on that. At least part of the reason is because the music works in synergy with the film itself.
Now, for a related contrast, see if you can find the Boston Pops Orchestra's rendition of the "virtual soundtrack" to Shadows of the Empire, a film tie-in. This soundtrack was written for the "media tie in to a movie that never was" event of Shadows of the Empire about 10-12 years ago (whenever that game and book came out). Thus, the orchestration of the soundtrack was written primarily to evoke the feeling of "this belongs to a movie that we haven't see." It is nice music, but lacks all the zest and oomph of Williams' own orchestration; in fact, the best part of the soundtrack happens to be one that takes one of Williams' own themes from TESB and riffs from it. Anyway, the point is that it is good music, but it is far less interesting than Williams' contributions to Star Wars precisely because it both lacks Williams and the accompanying visual media to make the whole package larger than the sum of its parts.
For qualifications: I have none other than loving music. I am especially fond of minimalism and Philip Glass is my favorite performer/composer; I'd be very curious about what you think of his music (and minimalism in general).
EDIT: My best advice is to recognize not only Williams' weaknesses, but his strengths, too, because he obviously has them in spades; if you want to be better than the best, you gotta understand what put them there, and John Williams is an excellent case study for beautiful, successful music.
I haven't heard many people say John Williams is the overall best composer of our generation. Of course he is not on the plain, technical level of the best Orchestral composers. He works in movies and it requires a different skill set and also doesn't require the same depth as 10 minute long orchestral epics. What you say about his songs simplicities, themes, depth etc is all true but movies don't need them to the same degree as other orchestral mediums. What he is known for is unparalleled catchy, emotional, melodic and deeply situational music for individual scenes in a variety of different movies (Indiana Jones, The Patriot, Star Wars and Schindler's List require very different music!). His music is made to grip you, add depth and emotion to scenes, immerse you into the story and leave a lasting impression upon you. At this he is probably the best in the world.
Wait.. you are a music major and don't understand that music doesn't have to be complicated to be good?
The lack of complexity isn't a fault, it's a choice. If he had focused on an incredibly detailed song with lots of variation then it wouldn't be the memorable hit it was. Why is pop music popular when by and large it is very simple? Because it's simple. I enjoy complicated music that makes me think but the majority of people want something that sounds nice and can be hummed.
When creating iconic themes (which is John Williams M.O.) simplicity is best that was the entire point of the Extra Punctuation you just watched.
Is it impossible to make an incredibly complicated song that sounds simple and memorable? No, but his job was to create a memorable theme, which is not as easy as it sounds, and he has succeeded numerous times.
The lack of complexity isn't a fault, it's a choice. If he had focused on an incredibly detailed song with lots of variation then it wouldn't be the memorable hit it was. Why is pop music popular when by and large it is very simple? Because it's simple. I enjoy complicated music that makes me think but the majority of people want something that sounds nice and can be hummed.
When creating iconic themes (which is John Williams M.O.) simplicity is best that was the entire point of the Extra Punctuation you just watched.
Is it impossible to make an incredibly complicated song that sounds simple and memorable? No, but his job was to create a memorable theme, which is not as easy as it sounds, and he has succeeded numerous times.
Okay I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I wish I could say I do, but I don't, I'm just not that musically gifted or educated. And as someone who isn't musically skilled or gifted I'm not sure if I give a damn, I mean, if I enjoy a melody, I can't really say that I care if it's musically complex or "technically good" (for lack of a better term).
But that's beside the main point. I was under the impression that what John Williams was celebrated for was composing music for movies. Again, I don't claim this as my field of expertise, on the contrary, it's one of my great fields of cluelessness. But isn't composing music for movies radically different than what Brahms & Co were doing? You say "would you even know of the imperial march if it wasn't a part of the star wars movies?", but isn't that kind of the point? We recognize The Imperial March because it goes so well with the Star Wars movies, because it's as much a part of what makes Darth Vader awesome as his heavy breathing or his "I am your father" line. Doesn't his actual talent and skill lie in being able to create emotion and feeling with music in a movie, rather than just music?
I'm not trying to flame here, like I said, I'm not qualified to debate in this subject. I'm just wondering ^^
But that's beside the main point. I was under the impression that what John Williams was celebrated for was composing music for movies. Again, I don't claim this as my field of expertise, on the contrary, it's one of my great fields of cluelessness. But isn't composing music for movies radically different than what Brahms & Co were doing? You say "would you even know of the imperial march if it wasn't a part of the star wars movies?", but isn't that kind of the point? We recognize The Imperial March because it goes so well with the Star Wars movies, because it's as much a part of what makes Darth Vader awesome as his heavy breathing or his "I am your father" line. Doesn't his actual talent and skill lie in being able to create emotion and feeling with music in a movie, rather than just music?
I'm not trying to flame here, like I said, I'm not qualified to debate in this subject. I'm just wondering ^^
I wasn't going to post especially because I'm not that good at music... I don't have the ear for it so to say.
But that Brahms symphony/lullaby just brought back memories of when my mother used to sing it to me... man did I miss that song!
So I'm just going to stick with the OP on this one. Also Furburt's on the same boat so I guess it's safe...
But that Brahms symphony/lullaby just brought back memories of when my mother used to sing it to me... man did I miss that song!
So I'm just going to stick with the OP on this one. Also Furburt's on the same boat so I guess it's safe...
The rhythm does exactly what it needs to do and supports the melody. If the melody is very good and interesting, the rhythm will not need to be more so.Oldmanwillow said:
He's writing a short theme for a movie, not a symphony. It doesn't need to be complex, or have a lot of variation. It needs to get you excited for the hero.
Pretty much. Should we not like catchy pieces even if they're simple?
This is true of many great composers. Once you get big enough, you higher other people to do the tedious, boring parts of composition so you can focus on the creative aspects. Did you know that George Gershwin didn't orchestrate his masterwork Rhapsody in Blue.
Google "The Five Sacred Trees". Or the Olympic Fanfare. He's written numerous non-movie works.
A better question may be, would you know of the Star Wars movies if they didn't have John Williams' score?
I could also use some Mozart for the same purpose. I could present a work by Picaso as an example of a bad painting or a novel by Hemmingway as an example of bad writing. Nobody is perfect all the time. The Rule of Thirds applies to everyone: A third is great, a third is crap, and a third doesn't matter.
As is common in many great classical compositions. But alas and alack, very few, if any, people are still writing scores on the level of the Three B's (Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms). Perhaps Williams gets a pass simply because he is writing for an age and generation completely devoid of great music. I tend to lament that classical music was killed by Schoenberg and his dodecacophony, but perhaps I am unfair to modern composers and too sympathetic to Williams. All I know is I have never found myself humming a tune by Stravinsky, nor have I whistled a melody by Bartok and had everyone around me instantly know what it was.
One more thing I might point out is that I think you are being unfair to Williams by cherry picking works from earlier in his career. Yes, the Indiana Jones theme is simple, as are many other of his themes from the same time period; Star Wars, Superman, etc. But he has grown and matured as his career progressed. Listen to Schindler's List, Hook, or even AI (a movie that was disliked by many but had one of William's most inventive soundtracks). The theme from Jurassic Park is much more complex, and even has a somewhat contrapuntal melody playing under the main theme.
John Williams, I think, has forever changed the music we hear in the movies. The conductor (I forget his name) who wrote the liner notes for the Star Wars soundtrack anthology mentioned that prior to Star Wars, musical scores for movies tended to be very subtle, then with Star Wars, along came a movie where a score any less subtle than a freight train would have been entirely inappropriate. Just as Star Wars forever changed movies, I think its score did the same.
Williams is a very capable and most capable where it matters most: in evoking an emotional response deep within the listener. How can you not want to grab a whip and swing across the pit, golden idol in one hand and damsel in the other when you hear Indiana Jones? How can you not want to jump into the cockpit of an X-Wing and blast TIE Fighters when you hear Star Wars? How can you not want to tear your shirt open, revealing the red "S" hidden beneath when you hear the opening fanfare to Superman? His music, for good or for ill, is exactly what it needs to be.
I was critiquing hip-hop a while back, comparing things like the flow of the lyrics, the lyrics themselves, the rhyme, the rhythm, etc., when a friend brought something to my attention.
Good music is judged by the listener. If you like how it sounds, it's good.
I love being an elitist and rating things based on merits and so on, but what he said really rings true for me. Miley Cyrus' music may have the production values of a Hostess twinkie, but if people like the sound of it, it's good enough.
Good music is judged by the listener. If you like how it sounds, it's good.
I love being an elitist and rating things based on merits and so on, but what he said really rings true for me. Miley Cyrus' music may have the production values of a Hostess twinkie, but if people like the sound of it, it's good enough.
I can't say that I've ever heard that until I watched Extra Credits half an hour ago. Jurassic Park, all I remember is "Dinosaurs go rawr!"DarthLurtz said:
Does it entertain?
--Yes.
Is it iconic?
--Yes.
Does it provide an epic theme for the movie/character that draws out the nature of said subject?
--Yes.
Is there always going to be someone who finds a flaw in a type of music?
--Yes.
Is any form of music perfect?
--No.
Is any Composer perfect?
--No.
His music is written for film, in the manner of Wagnerian Character Themes and music that reflects what is, and is about to, happen. Listening to it on its own it might be bland, but in the context of the film it's both atmospheric and iconic. If you don't like it, that's a matter of your personal tastes, but you must see why so many people do like it. People often mistake personal dislike of something for that thing genuinely being bad. Please don't commit this logical fallacy.
--Yes.
Is it iconic?
--Yes.
Does it provide an epic theme for the movie/character that draws out the nature of said subject?
--Yes.
Is there always going to be someone who finds a flaw in a type of music?
--Yes.
Is any form of music perfect?
--No.
Is any Composer perfect?
--No.
His music is written for film, in the manner of Wagnerian Character Themes and music that reflects what is, and is about to, happen. Listening to it on its own it might be bland, but in the context of the film it's both atmospheric and iconic. If you don't like it, that's a matter of your personal tastes, but you must see why so many people do like it. People often mistake personal dislike of something for that thing genuinely being bad. Please don't commit this logical fallacy.
Not sure how I link to YouTube-videos on this site, but if I knew, I'd link this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOFZSnz9J3s
been listening a lot to this lately. one of my favorite film themes at the moment. apart from this piece, most of Hans Zimmers work is getting kind of similar to each other. When he tries to create a piece with a pulse/rythm he usually just creates the same stuff over and over again.
EDIT: Of course, this is a film theme. Meaning that it has to be put into context when being listened to. its from the movie Thin Red Line, american troops in the pacific, and I think it suits the style of the film very much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOFZSnz9J3s
been listening a lot to this lately. one of my favorite film themes at the moment. apart from this piece, most of Hans Zimmers work is getting kind of similar to each other. When he tries to create a piece with a pulse/rythm he usually just creates the same stuff over and over again.
EDIT: Of course, this is a film theme. Meaning that it has to be put into context when being listened to. its from the movie Thin Red Line, american troops in the pacific, and I think it suits the style of the film very much.
My first thought was "Let's see what happens when Brahms writes for movies."DarthLurtz said:
The fact is, Williams was writing to what was specficially needed. Memorable melodies that one could identify with moments of triumph, defeat, or character presence.
Also, one does not need "progression" in order to be good, or even great. Progression is but one element of songwriting. Though I'm not sure I've ever heard Williams called the greatest composer of a generation. I certainly would not call him THAT.
However, the "You go write a song" argument is terrible.