John Williams and why he isnt a great composer.

[Susan Arendt]

First main issue is that of all composers who write music for mediums such as video games and movies: They have to write pieces that go with what's on screen.

Maybe the music needs to wait an exact amount of time before the next event in the movie. It needs a "holding pattern" of sorts.

Exactly. I personally have no idea what John Williams' original compositions sound like - I only know what his movie scores are like, and they are brilliant and perfect companions to their films.

If Brahms scored a movie about a giant killer shark, perhaps it would be a fair comparison, but you're comparing oranges to limes here.

 

[Jonluw]

John Williams isn't tasked with making complex compositions; he is tasked with making a catchy and easily rememberable composition. Be honest: If I asked you to sing/humm Brahms syphony no. 2, how much of it would you remember by heart? Unless you're a classical music fantast, chances are your answer is "Just the lullaby part".

I'm sure John Williams could create a decent symphony if he wanted to, but his job is creating musical themes for movies. When you do that, you need to make something that sticks to the mind; not something that is compositionally complex...

Brahms symphony no. 2 would make for a crappy movie theme.

Edit: However, I think Grieg's Last spring would make for a great movie theme.

 

[gjendemsjo]

You won't get more subjecive than music my friend, so this thread was pretty pointless.

 

[runnerbelow]

tell me honestly would you even know of the imperial march if it wasn't a part of the star wars movies?

Would I know about Brahm's lullaby if it wasn't in every single sleeping scene in every children's show? Probably not. And if I remember it because my mother sang it to me, I remember it for her singing; not the song itself. (no disrespect to the song though)
SHAMEFUL EDIT: I didn't even know brahm's composed the song until something like 2 years ago.
I only knew it from those "Children's shows (I assumed it was like a folk song; old no one knew who wrote it etc.)

I digress from your point however, I also come to the conclusion that when you study something you begin to hate it (like what happens to kids with literature) and using it as an example as something bad only fuels the hatred. Anyway, if so many people like it (and it's not a cult phenomenon or relsted to a common fantasy) then their probably is something good about it. In music people like what they like. We have no real power over what we like, we just like it. I like the themes John Williams writes, just because. I have no reason. I don't like his songs for the chord progression, I just like it.

 

[Bullfrog1983]

I am sure I've never heard Brahm's symphony before, but it is pretty good. John Williams uses repetition to get the pacing of the song and scene together, which although doesn't make for good classical music is really nice for creating drama in movie scenes. I have to agree that some of his music has similar sounds, all in all I would not say he is a bad composer but I agree he is definitely not the best.

His simplicity is fine, because his music sounds really good - that's all I can say about it.
I find that I really do like the composers who do either movie or video game music. I do not know of any new composers that have begun in the last few years that don't do either of those, so I'll leave a few examples of others I find at least equal or better than him.

James Horner (Braveheart): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcxfrL4UjQ4

Howard Shore (typical LOTR song): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td6Fiz0S6RY

Jeff van Dyck (Rome: Total War) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsE_Jfi5r3s

Jerry Goldsmith (Star Trek V) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbp4UnoQEE

Knut A. Haugen (Age of Conan) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvyBplnvKWo

Mark Morgan (Planescape: Torment) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4QINNwR6Nw

Michael Kamen (Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANEAIH14_50

Cliff Eidelman (Star Trek VI) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHI6dL9oUZc

I dunno if you count this classical or not...

Arcana - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBAu7hfdDPM

Nox Arcana - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TXjhnGdAgI

Anyway, I'm not a musical scholar, I just really like music and making music to a lesser degree - so if you don't like it then say so and don't get caught up in other people's opinions.

 

[Anarchemitis]

Often truly 'great' (ie critically revered) stuff is ignored by the public.

Like Arvo Part.

Dear OP: What about his own work like Air & Simple Gifts?
Or separate from what he's written, his playing ability?

 

[lumenadducere]

Does it entertain?
--Yes.
Is it iconic?
--Yes.
Does it provide an epic theme for the movie/character that draws out the nature of said subject?
--Yes.
Is there always going to be someone who finds a flaw in a type of music?
--Yes.
Is any form of music perfect?
--No.
Is any Composer perfect?
--No.

His music is written for film, in the manner of Wagnerian Character Themes and music that reflects what is, and is about to, happen. Listening to it on its own it might be bland, but in the context of the film it's both atmospheric and iconic. If you don't like it, that's a matter of your personal tastes, but you must see why so many people do like it. People often mistake personal dislike of something for that thing genuinely being bad. Please don't commit this logical fallacy.

Definitely agreed with this. The OP is comparing music made for a different artistic medium (movies, in this case) with music that was composed solely to be listened to, preferably in a hall or someplace where acoustics are specifically designed to accommodate the sound. I'm actually very surprised that a music major wouldn't know and understand the difference. John Williams can't be compared to any of the classic composers, but he's really not supposed to be. It's basically comparing apples and oranges - they're both fruits, but they're not the same thing and to assume that they are is a mistake.

And yes, don't assume that just because you dislike something it is therefore bad. It's unappealing to you, but others obviously see the merit. And in John Williams's case, very much so seeing as how he's the wealthiest composer in history.

 

[sageoftruth]

Forgive me if someone else mentioned this already, but I think his popularity comes from the fact that when people hear his music, they remember the movies they saw. As was mentioned in extra credits, a strong melody is the way to makes something memorable, probably because it is easier to remember than a complex harmony (As a metalhead, I feel like I'm contradicting myself).
Bottom line: When anyone, regardless of capacity for music reception, hears his music, they instantly remember the movie, and because the song triggers good memories, they call it good music. I'm sure there are other reasons, but that's my input.

 

[Eumersian]

Perhaps he's not the most adventurous composer. But music is a personal art, and if he feels like he want's to write music like that, that's his choice. As long as he accomplished his goals, he did a good job didn't he?

I dabble in composition, and have even gotten a piece played by my high school's concert band. I know my current state, that there are areas where I need to refine the craft, but I write what I feel like writing. My goal as a spare-time composer is to write things that some people other than myself. I've accomplished that goal more than once, so I consider myself at least that good.

Mind you, I'm not trying to compare myself to John Williams, but all work within our particular bounds.

 

[Oldmanwillow]

Woah sorry for being out of this thread for so long. (I had class)

Does it entertain?
--Yes.
Is it iconic?
--Yes.
Does it provide an epic theme for the movie/character that draws out the nature of said subject?
--Yes.
Is there always going to be someone who finds a flaw in a type of music?
--Yes.
Is any form of music perfect?
--No.
Is any Composer perfect?
--No.

His music is written for film, in the manner of Wagnerian Character Themes and music that reflects what is, and is about to, happen. Listening to it on its own it might be bland, but in the context of the film it's both atmospheric and iconic. If you don't like it, that's a matter of your personal tastes, but you must see why so many people do like it. People often mistake personal dislike of something for that thing genuinely being bad. Please don't commit this logical fallacy.

Definitely agreed with this. The OP is comparing music made for a different artistic medium (movies, in this case) with music that was composed solely to be listened to, preferably in a hall or someplace where acoustics are specifically designed to accommodate the sound. I'm actually very surprised that a music major wouldn't know and understand the difference. John Williams can't be compared to any of the classic composers, but he's really not supposed to be. It's basically comparing apples and oranges - they're both fruits, but they're not the same thing and to assume that they are is a mistake.

And yes, don't assume that just because you dislike something it is therefore bad. It's unappealing to you, but others obviously see the merit. And in John Williams's case, very much so seeing as how he's the wealthiest composer in history.

1) first off i dont hate John Williams i just get a resounding meh out of all of his works and the stuff that sounds the best ( his later works) he only writes the melody and nothing else. The thing that bugs me is that so many people put it on a high platter as great music composer.

2) I understand that he is writing for a movie and i know that it means that you are writing for a specific scene which means that you will have a lot of different themes that arn't really meant to be put together smoothly. I still wish to this day that it wasn't like this.
In opera they had a story and they were trying to create music that would best suite the piece of literature ( this is true in the late 1700's to present day). While they did create theme for characters and situations they all connected them all very well. I just wish that film composers held them selves that that standard.

3) since the minimalist movement was mentioned and they asked me to put my 2 cents in on it here it is. I gets another meh out of me. Sure the melodies are nice and they are using chord progression that are easy and there is nothing wrong with that. the only thing in music i truly enjoy is the variation. I want a theme to go places that i couldnt imagine it going, and bring me back to where i was at the start. Variation is the spices that makes the steak wonderful. Other we are left with a melody that has a chance to developed into something that is far more wonderful to behold, and it never gets the chance to go there.

4) I have nothing against simple music but i want it to have variation. Doesnt variation make everything in life more enjoyable. People get depressed because there isnt enough variation in there lives.

I am going to be here for a while so if you have anymore questions please let me know.

 

[GrinningManiac]

There is a difference between Brahms and Film music.

Whilst both are very simple melodies and are famous because of said melodies, the reason they are simple in Films is to ensure memorability

For example, if they were to announce a 5th Indiana film and all the teaser contained was a black screen with the Indiana tune, everyone would instantly know what they were in for (i.e. Nazis, Nuke-fridges and Whips)

 

[FolkLikePanda]

If it sounds good then it's ok with me, but many things are shit and fool people to make them think its good by the aesthetics that accompanies it instead of the audial parts.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Meh, opinions differ from each other. Personally, this is why I don't take a music class, because that extra knowledge can sometimes put the world into a different view.

That all said, you missed the entire point he made in that video. That he is popular because his songs are rather simple. They don't play throughout the entire movie, just the parts were the main characters aren't the stars of the screen. I think he is a great composer and I enjoy a lot of his songs. They're memorable and they quickly get stuck in your head, that's all you really have to do to make a catchy tune.

 

[6unn3r]

Music is and always will be "good" or "bad" depending on your tastes.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I more or less agree with you. John Williams has created some great tunes, but they're very rigid (not that I know anything about writing music).

I like Howard Shore a lot better. Especailly his score for Lord of The Rings.

 

[lumenadducere]

1) first off i dont hate John Williams i just get a resounding meh out of all of his works and the stuff that sounds the best ( his later works) he only writes the melody and nothing else. The thing that bugs me is that so many people put it on a high platter as great writing.

2) I understand that he is writing for a movie and i know that it means that you are writing for a specific scene which means that you will have a lot of different themes that arn't really meant to be put together smoothly. I still wish to this day that it wasn't like this.
In opera they had a story and they were trying to create music that would best suite the piece of literature ( this is true in the late 1700's to present day). While they did create theme for characters and situations they all connected them all very well. I just wish that film composers held them selves that that standard.

3) since the minimalist movement was mentioned and they asked me to put my 2 cents in on it here it is. I gets another meh out of me. Sure the melodies are nice and they are using chord progression that are easy and there is nothing wrong with that. the only thing in music i truly enjoy is the variation. I want a theme to go places that i couldnt imagine it going, and bring me back to where i was at the start. Variation is the spices that makes the steak wonderful. Other we are left with a melody that has a chance to developed into something that is far more wonderful to behold, and it never gets the chance to go there.

4) I have nothing against simple music but i want it to have variation. Doesnt variation make everything in life more enjoyable. People get depressed because there isnt enough variation in there lives.

I am going to be here for a while so if you have anymore questions please let me know.

Variation, more complex music, etc. is great and I agree that it's wonderful to have. But the whole point of the Extra Credits episode though was the idea that simpler themes are memorable, and when composing for films (and games) you want the memorable bits to stand out. It's basically like marketing - the moment you hear the blast of the Star Wars intro, you know what you're listening to. You need to have something memorable to associate with the product, like the Mario or Zelda themes that are so recognizable. The whole reason to mention John Williams was that he basically captures that simplicity so well for movies. The more complex a song is the more you risk losing the simpler theme that makes it so catchy, and again there's a cost-benefit between how complex and varied a piece should be and how much of it the audience is actually going to catch because they're paying attention to something else.

It's a very different beast, and you could have some of the most wonderfully intricate pieces of music out there but it would be lost on the audience, because the audience is paying attention to the images and the dialog. The music is meant to be in the background to help set the tone, mood, pacing, etc. If there's too much variation then it loses that ability to set the ambiance of the film. If the music ever takes the forefront or takes the audience's attention away from what's going on on the screen, it's usually (not always, there are exceptions) failed in its purpose.

If you get the chance and if your university offers it, I'd recommend taking a film music course, or hell even a few film classes in general. It's interesting stuff (if your teacher doesn't get bogged down in analysis) and it'll help show what I'm trying to convey in a much better way than I can.

 

[sylekage]

When it comes to music in movies, games, and the like, composers don't have as much to run with as, say, Beethoven, Bach, Pachelbel, and composer who just compose. They have to deal with what is going on on screen at certain times, and like someone said up there, they keep it going for a certain amount of time before they can change.

Also, the composers keep it simple because, if you're watching a movie, and the music swells, and becomes awesome, then starts changing tones, speed, melody, and everything else, it will start being distracting to the movie experience. That is why John Williams, Howard Shore, Hans Zimmer, and many others, use simple tones and melodies to bring really exciting movies to life.

You must admit, though, if movies like star wars, indiana jones, and Jurassic Park didn't have John Williams, or music at all, they wouldn't be as good as they are with said music. People go to movies, and buy games for the movies and games, and the music is just a bonus for the ears. I prefer these composers any day over a techno/rock/rap soundtrack.
/rant

I'm a huge fan of movie composers. their music calms me down.

 

[Continuity]

snip

Ok but so what? we're not interested in john williams as a composer we're interested in him as a movie score composer... and to be quite frank his work speaks for itself, its irrelevant how he gets to his end product, its irrelevant what the technical characteristics of it are, his work is superb for its purpose, he has created some of the best and most memorable signature movie scores of all time.

 

[Oldmanwillow]

1) first off i dont hate John Williams i just get a resounding meh out of all of his works and the stuff that sounds the best ( his later works) he only writes the melody and nothing else. The thing that bugs me is that so many people put it on a high platter as great writing.

2) I understand that he is writing for a movie and i know that it means that you are writing for a specific scene which means that you will have a lot of different themes that arn't really meant to be put together smoothly. I still wish to this day that it wasn't like this.
In opera they had a story and they were trying to create music that would best suite the piece of literature ( this is true in the late 1700's to present day). While they did create theme for characters and situations they all connected them all very well. I just wish that film composers held them selves that that standard.

3) since the minimalist movement was mentioned and they asked me to put my 2 cents in on it here it is. I gets another meh out of me. Sure the melodies are nice and they are using chord progression that are easy and there is nothing wrong with that. the only thing in music i truly enjoy is the variation. I want a theme to go places that i couldnt imagine it going, and bring me back to where i was at the start. Variation is the spices that makes the steak wonderful. Other we are left with a melody that has a chance to developed into something that is far more wonderful to behold, and it never gets the chance to go there.

4) I have nothing against simple music but i want it to have variation. Doesnt variation make everything in life more enjoyable. People get depressed because there isnt enough variation in there lives.

I am going to be here for a while so if you have anymore questions please let me know.

Variation, more complex music, etc. is great and I agree that it's wonderful to have. But the whole point of the Extra Credits episode though was the idea that simpler themes are memorable, and when composing for films (and games) you want the memorable bits to stand out. It's basically like marketing - the moment you hear the blast of the Star Wars intro, you know what you're listening to. You need to have something memorable to associate with the product, like the Mario or Zelda themes that are so recognizable. The whole reason to mention John Williams was that he basically captures that simplicity so well for movies. The more complex a song is the more you risk losing the simpler theme that makes it so catchy, and again there's a cost-benefit between how complex and varied a piece should be and how much of it the audience is actually going to catch because they're paying attention to something else.

It's a very different beast, and you could have some of the most wonderfully intricate pieces of music out there but it would be lost on the audience, because the audience is paying attention to the images and the dialog. The music is meant to be in the background to help set the tone, mood, pacing, etc. If there's too much variation then it loses that ability to set the ambiance of the film. If the music ever takes the forefront or takes the audience's attention away from what's going on on the screen, it's usually (not always, there are exceptions) failed in its purpose.

If you get the chance and if your university offers it, I'd recommend taking a film music course, or hell even a few film classes in general. It's interesting stuff (if your teacher doesn't get bogged down in analysis) and it'll help show what I'm trying to convey in a much better way than I can.

I understand what you are trying to say that the movie itself limits the composer in his more artistic pursuit because the movie/play has to be first and foremost. Yes i have taken a film score writing class and felt it all to be very limiting. That said it is possible to have both acting and absolutely fantastic music. the whole movie Amadeus is absolute proof of that. That a movie about a composer but another example of such is the lord of the rings score. It better written with just as much emphasis on the harmony/rhythm and if you just listen to the music itself it works as a piece. the themes do have limited variation and just doesnt sit a melody.

A film score should be able to stand on its own without a film behind it and to be able to enhance a film with it.