shrekfan246 said:
Frankly, as someone who's pretty tired of the way the internet evangelizes Marvel's films...
Given it's one of the most successful films series in history - and it's been demonstrably well thought out and guided - I think the praise the MCU gets is entirely fair.
Star Wars couldn't go six films without 50% of that being garbage... The MCU's gone, what, fourteen or fifteen now without a single real creative stinker? That's an absolutely remarkable achievement. Has some of that come at the cost of homogeneity, and a new 'Marvel method'? Yes, but even its most bland entries (Thor 2) or creative brainfarts (Iron Man 2... which is actually my vote for worse MCU film yet) aren't as misjudged, as technically deficient, or as poorly written as either MoS or, particularly, BvS. I've not seen Suicide Squad but everything I've seen and heard rather makes me despise it (I don't like Will Smith, and so Will Smith Will Smithing Deadshot will make me want to throw things at the screen).
For anti-populist contrarians - no idea if that includes you at all - the MCU's as easy target to be sniffy at, but its qualities are hard to deny, as is the accomplishment (no one else has ever done what Feige and co have).
...I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that DC trying to chase the same track is trite, boring, and a bad idea. It's not exactly the same thing as OP's reasoning, sure, but I appreciated that DC was at least trying to be different, and mostly take issue with the fact that they didn't seem to realize exactly how to go about "being different".
That's fair, and I think Warner are rather pathetic for essentially bottling it rather than truly find their own tone.
...although, one
could make the case that superhero characters and arcs of the like The Avengers and Justice League contain are simply inherently ridiculous and arch, i.e. you cannot deal with them and their universes in the same way Nolan dealt with Batman, for example. Making rather ridiculous scenarios and character match-up's grimdark tends to just make them more ridiculous.
I'm not sure a darker tone really suits the DCEU - or, at least, certainly not if it's Snyder/Terrio/Goyer's ignorant, superficial, visionless comprehension of these characters and worlds. Affleck could make for a fine Bruce Wayne and Batman, ditto Cavill for Kent/Supes (I pretty much want a do-over; I'd love to have seen Man Of Steel deliver on its rather gorgeous, Malick-esque original teaser. we
really didn't get that film or that Superman). They both deserve so much better, regardless of tone. Not so sure about Wonder Woman, though. I don't see any trace of Gal Gadot's charisma in the role yet.
Perhaps if Warner had any conviction, they'd have 'hard R'd' the universe to give it a real . But then that would raise its own fundamental issues, chief amongst them being if you're going to use Superman on the bigscreen, it surely needs to be kid friendly.
TakerFoxx said:
Honestly, I wouldn't even say Dollhouse was a dud. Yes, the first few episodes were mediocre and Eliza Dushku doesn't really have the range required for the role. But those aside, once it hit its stride it got really good. Hell, I'd say the second season was some of the best writing he's done.
I heartily agree with that. It's also by the far darkest, most twisted, most poignantly bittersweet resolution to a story he's ever crafted.
Not that he didn't make mistakes on Dollhouse, but he made them at the behest of Fox who wanted five back to back 'pilots'. I'd say those eps are some of the worst things Joss's ever put his name to, but, again, it really wasn't all down to him. He was doing what Fox wanted, and to be fair he admitted not really knowing how best to deal with them or give them what they wanted (or find a balance). From ep6 onwards S1 has some incredible episodes and writing, and even though S2 was on fast-forward as they knew they were being cancelled, it still soars. Both Epitaphs are particularly beautiful/eerie/tragic, too (great use of music and some licensed songs).
bastardofmelbourne said:
It's only unfair in the sense that it's comparing one director's strengths to another director's weaknesses.
Well, exactly, and they are their strengths because it's what - to nod to a Batman Begins line... - they choose to do that defines them, ergo they have very different priorities.
Nolan does a combination of gripping, twisty-turny narratives (that don't necessarily make sense, but you don't notice) and elaborate practical effects that are so good you don't even realise that they're actually practical effects. Neither one lends itself particularly well to a fight scene.
That sounds like we're agreeing on it being an unfair comparison. Did you ever pine for Snyder's action whilst watching Bale and Ledger go at it in the interview room? I'd say the true finale to The Dark Knight is the stand-off between Bats, Dent, and Gordon; to me that's a better, more exciting, more horribly tense 'action' scene than Snyder's empty head's ever crafted, and it was just three people standing together shouting a bit...
All the ideas and arcs and events boiled down to that one scene, and it's an incredible sequence.
(apropos Nolan; heh, Dunkirk has no mind frying gimmick, and no grand reveal up its sleeve... it may be his most conventional film yet, so it'll be interesting how it turns out)
...with the truck flipping? That's genius. They actually flipped a truck for that. But Nolan never seems to make that stuff work as impressively when it comes to fight choreography.
Again, to me that was more exciting than any CG fest in BvS, as it was a moment of impactful tension that segued superbly into what follows. The Dark Knight's tension is largely internalised (multiple surges towards new crises), which is perfect for what the two main characters 'at stake' are going through (Bruce and Dent). Include lots of 'badass' fight scenes and that pacing, focus, and tension dissipates. Action scenes are, after all, so often diffuses of dramatic tension.
The worst of the trilogy - The Dark Knight Rises - could've done with more elaborately staged action, sure, as its tone was far more comicbooky and arch. That said, I do think the first Bane confrontation is finely staged, once you roll with the notion that this Batman clearly ain't too good with the martial arts...
Still, it pees - from a great height - all over BvS's anticlimactic 'versus'. Batman going up against Bane in that scene is an extension of Bruce's ego and hubris, whilst he's also ostensibly confronting his own past (though he doesn't know to what extent). There is a connection of themes and histories, an established conflict, and it serves a clear dramatic purpose. And I'm apparently amongst the minority, as well, in that I love both Bale's Batman voice post-Begins and Bane's. Ledger's performance is phenomenal, and his character is used far better thematically in TDK, but I actually prefer Rises' Bane as far as on-screen comicbook villains go. Hardy's not that tall, but Nolan and co shoot him to be incredibly imposing, and his body language is note perfect for the role.
Catwoman stepping away, beginning to realise what she's done, the overall sense of menace, the way it's photographed, etc. It's a fine scene, in an admittedly rather stupid film (the 'Send EEEEVERYONE!' [into the sewers] plot detail still pisses me the hell off).
So as I said: if all you want is contextless brutes enacting violence on each other, then sure, Snyder's your man. But I kinda don't care about choreography in these films - it's a nice bonus (Captain America kicking ass, post-The First Avenger is perhaps my favourite comicbook flavour of action, ever. Cap just ploughing through a guy in the wide shot on the ship at the start of TWS just
never gets old... I always wish they'd hold that shot for longer. most of the MCU's scores are ho-hum, but TWS's is fantastic, and it greatly adds to all the major scraps).
If I just want great fight choreography, I'll watch The Raid again (whose combat, apparently, influenced the Russo's for TWS).
Nolan (and even Whedon) uses action better than Snyder dramatically - and when I'm paying to see a film featuring interesting characters and icons, I'm going for them primarily, not Bayhem.
The best parts about Winter Soldier's action scenes was the shield physics. That really impressed me.
I would rate Winter Soldier a better movie than MoS or BvS overall because it just did a lot of things right and very few things wrong, but in terms of the fight scenes only, it's a much closer race. But Winter Soldier is still a contender, yeah.
Cap had been my favourite Avenger (mostly from The Ultimates, anti-French sentiment aside... ), and so I'm a tad biased, but TWS is one of my favourite action films of all time, frankly. It ain't perfect, but man, for me it's
close, and by some margin the MCU's best. Chris Evans in that role is a superb example of the right actor, in the right role, and - crucially - with the right understanding and execution. All the stars aligned for MCU's Cap (though I'd personally prefer he was a
little more Ultimates, and that they played up his actual role as team leader more).
Hell, if Daredevil's Batman done right (re a morally grey, slightly unhinged night lovin' vigilante beating the shit into his city's underworld, etc), then MCU Cap's Superman done right... but this ain't the thread to dredge up why the useless inclusion of The Death Of Superman arc adds to BvS's awfulness (BvS is X-3's spiritual twin in terms of seeing who can burn through as many potentially interesting and/or iconic arcs in the space of a single film).
The opening mission on the ship (character narrative sprinkled throughout, whilst setting up the plot, whilst just being great action at the same time), the lift fight, the sprawling highway fight - I'll add the Russo's to the list of directors better at using and queuing up action than Snyder.
Okay, Daredevil bugs the hell out of me. It has some excellent fight choreography with some clever use of editing, perspective, and stunt-double-switching to give the impression that it's done in a single take, Oldboy-style.
Apropos [affected?] single takes: love the 360 from inside the car in S1, too. I'd seen the hallway sequence before seeing the show, unfortunately, but I hadn't known about that, or the carpark rescue.
But what shits me about it is that the choreographer decided to make Daredevil's signature finishing move the stupidest kick imaginable. He like...turns his back to the guy, crouches like he's taking a dump, and then backflips so that the base of his foot sorta-kinda-not-at-all-really hits the dude.
I just cannot take that kick seriously. I imagine it gets used so much because it's hard to do and the stunt double must be really proud of the fact that he can do it, but it's just such a ridiculously impractical kick. I can't do it. It makes me laugh every time I see it, and in a bad way.
Heh, that is quite goofy. I'm not familiar enough with the character to know whether that might be some reference to a famous Daredevil panel, or line, or not.
I felt the alleyway showdown between he and Kingpin was quite poor, too, but to be fair it's not easy to stage action when they probably didn't have a very good D'Onofrio double to really develop the scene. It's also shot quite poorly, almost as if they were pressed for time.
Still, Daredevil S1 absolutely blew me away. Not finished Jessica Jones S1 yet, but I really can't see how that's the critical darling of the Netflix stable - DD S1's leagues ahead of it almost every possible way (direction, themes, antagonist, writing, action).
The rest of the show's good, though. Oh! Except for Season 2, where the hundred or so Hand ninjas all decide to fuck off and let four or five guys fight Daredevil one at a time. Those Hand ninjas can go fuck themselves. (Which would be...a date with the Hand, I guess?)
I actually have S2 sitting on a pile of new/recent Blu-rays, unopened, about a foot away on this table, so I've not started it yet. I'm late to all the Netflix parties, so I'm just waiting to build a physical collection. From all I've heard, I might give Iron Fist a miss...
