Journey Creator: Games Aren't Good Enough for Adults
- Thread starter John Funk
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Wrong. Just wrong. How is watching football, or baseball, (the 2 biggest hobbies in the US to adults) relevant intellectual stimulation? What about golfing? What about fishing? Just plain wrong.
I understand where he's coming from, but I think he needs to take a broader aspect. Run-gun-fun games can make you experience stimulating emotions, as well as a few other aspects. For example, take one of the best zombie shooter time-wasters out there, Left 4 Dead 2. In its inital layout, the missions appear to be simple, repetitive, go-here-and-don't-get-eaten-along-the-way affairs. However, events within the missions are what make them enjoyable and interesting. On the Evac mission of the Swamp Fever campaign, all four of us were upright, but I had highest health and everyone else was in the red. We'd gathered by the gates ready for evac, and as they blew, I stayed behind as my team-mates ran for the boat, delaying the horde of infected until the others had a decent enough lead that they wouldn't be overrun.
In this sort of situation, not only is the heavy chatter of automatic rifle fire, the rushing horde and falling infected a terrific sight, as well as the adrenaline from a last-ditch stand, but it's interesting to see how different people react in such situations in-game. In similar scenarios, I've seen the rescue arrive and the one team member with the health, ammo and grenades leg it and leave the rest of the team up shit creek. If they haven't shown to be already, these gamers are the ones who act utter dicks in the next round, and as a result they're usually ignored when in trouble, while the rest of the team remember and repay bravery and aid throughout the campaign.
Admittedly, in the virtual reality, consequence free world of gaming, this sort of thing doesn't check against real life very well, but it does show some of the same aspects as Journey, namely that you're interacting with, and often dependant on for survival, other people that you don't verbally or physically contact. I think it's less a problem with games not being good for adults, and more a problem with games that don't achieve emotional stimulation just being bad games.
In this sort of situation, not only is the heavy chatter of automatic rifle fire, the rushing horde and falling infected a terrific sight, as well as the adrenaline from a last-ditch stand, but it's interesting to see how different people react in such situations in-game. In similar scenarios, I've seen the rescue arrive and the one team member with the health, ammo and grenades leg it and leave the rest of the team up shit creek. If they haven't shown to be already, these gamers are the ones who act utter dicks in the next round, and as a result they're usually ignored when in trouble, while the rest of the team remember and repay bravery and aid throughout the campaign.
Admittedly, in the virtual reality, consequence free world of gaming, this sort of thing doesn't check against real life very well, but it does show some of the same aspects as Journey, namely that you're interacting with, and often dependant on for survival, other people that you don't verbally or physically contact. I think it's less a problem with games not being good for adults, and more a problem with games that don't achieve emotional stimulation just being bad games.
Really? Cause i have to say, ive enjoyed my copy of Dead Or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball for almost 8 years now.... And theres very little "intellectual stimulation" to it.
What about minecraft? I wouldnt exactly call it "intellectually stimulating", but it still happens to be one of the most popular games, and is enjoyed by a large audience of adults (myself included).
I think hes over analyzing it a little. A good game will be enjoyed by anyone, no matter how little "intellectual stimulation" it has. In the end, a game is a game. There can be hard ones, and easy ones, but its still a game.
What about minecraft? I wouldnt exactly call it "intellectually stimulating", but it still happens to be one of the most popular games, and is enjoyed by a large audience of adults (myself included).
I think hes over analyzing it a little. A good game will be enjoyed by anyone, no matter how little "intellectual stimulation" it has. In the end, a game is a game. There can be hard ones, and easy ones, but its still a game.
-having a drink while reading this and then reads the quote then spills his drink out- WHAT THE HELL?!?! Games Aren't Good Enough for ADULTS WHAT IS HE STUPID HALF OF US ARE ADULTS WHAT THE HELL!?!?!John Funk said:Journey Creator: Games Aren't Good Enough for Adults
Adults need relevant intellectual stimulation.
Thatgamecompany's Jenova Chen works on games that are thoughtful and elegant like Flower [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/9494-Journey-Review]. These are games that many point to as examples that games can be genuinely artistic, even if they won't ever sell as well as Call of Duty. Not that Chen wants to make Call of Duty anyway.
"[Games] are not good enough for adults," Chen said in a Gamasutra interview [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/170557/What_Jenova_Chen_doesnt_like_about_video_games_.php]. For him, it comes down to a matter of real-world relevance. "For adults to enjoy something, they need to have intellectual stimulation, something that's related to real life. Playing poker teaches you how to deceive people, and that's relevant to real life. A headshot with a sniper rifle is not relevant to real life."
This is not the first time that Chen has made these kinds of statements, either. They echo his words PlayStation Blog [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/106867-Flower-Creator-Loves-Action-Games-Questions-Their-Usefulness]. "What does that do for your life? It's not useful."
Chen told Gamasutra that games for adults had to be relevant intellectually. "Can games make you and another human experience an emotion that's deep enough to touch adults?" That was his aim with the ephemeral connections forged in Journey's multiplayer, he said, and that was what he hoped to continue to do, by making "emotional games ... where people can connect and come together."
The full feature interview with Chen is over on Gamasutra [http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/170547/a_personal_journey_jenova_chens_.php], and it's well worth a read - especially if you're like me, and keep picturing him as the villain from Final Fantasy VII.
Source: Gamasutra [http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/170547/a_personal_journey_jenova_chens_.php]
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Catharsis maybe? I don't know about most people, but I don't play games purely to be intellectually stimulated. Is it nice when I play something that makes me think about it on a deeper level? Yeah, but sometimes I just want to beat some monsters into bloody chunks cause I've had a rough day at work and need some steam blown off.John Funk said:
Beyond that, what does "art" do for your life anyway? How is "art" useful? It really isn't. It may be stimulating and fascinating, but it ultimately has no "use". A can-opener has far more uses than the Mona Lisa because it was made to perform a function while the arguably most famous painting in the world is simply meant to exist.
I'm sure kids with their super useful Art degrees will be coming out of the woodwork to explain to me exactly how I'm wrong, so have at it, and enjoy your night working at Burger King.
'One hit artsy game'? The guy has a masters degree from the university of southern california, and has created four games (including flower and flow) all of which got substantial praise and won awards, not to mention pretty big sales figures. You can not agree with what he's saying, but he's obviously a pretty clever guy, and I think he deserves a chance to say what he feels about the game industry, and I don't think he's being particuarly dickish or pretentious. He wants games to have more intellectual heft. Is that really blasphemous?Lordmarkus said:
This statement is hilarious in light of the fact that the average gamer is an adult. Obviously it's good enough, we're all buying it.
... Jerk
... Jerk
oh ah OK I guess don't get to ahead of yourself mate I love journey hell it will be one of my top 5 games this year but don't get to pretentious there is place for mindless violence in games just as films and TV have some mindless violence and while I think we need more games like journey we also need to keep our heads out of our arses .
I would disagree with his initial statements because he is confusing the metagame complexities of a "real world" activity with the surface interaction of a video game.
Poker teaching deception is not a necessary component to the game. I'm not saying that it is not important, but if anyone has ever played with amateurs, they can play the game even with a lousy poker face.
The example of reloading a sniper rifle in COD or Battlefield is only looking at the surface interaction of the game. That would be akin to someone knowing when to draw or hold in poker (which unless you are a professional is not a relevant life skill) without ever learning how to read tells.
Multiplayer games do teach adult lessons. Cooperation with strangers, often through the movement of the on screen characters if you keep others muted like I do for playing on Xbox live. Same for how does your team work with an uncooperative member? The social aspects of these games do have real world applications.
Poker teaching deception is not a necessary component to the game. I'm not saying that it is not important, but if anyone has ever played with amateurs, they can play the game even with a lousy poker face.
The example of reloading a sniper rifle in COD or Battlefield is only looking at the surface interaction of the game. That would be akin to someone knowing when to draw or hold in poker (which unless you are a professional is not a relevant life skill) without ever learning how to read tells.
Multiplayer games do teach adult lessons. Cooperation with strangers, often through the movement of the on screen characters if you keep others muted like I do for playing on Xbox live. Same for how does your team work with an uncooperative member? The social aspects of these games do have real world applications.
Games aren't good for adults. ( Games are bad for you! Games are evil! )
Games aren't good enough for adults. ( Games aren't good enough for you. You deserve better. )
Funny how leaving out one word of the title on the main page will up your article's views significantly.
As for the Journey developer... meh, maybe he's got a point, but I don't see how it matters. To me, games are about whatever you want them to be (fun, education, escapism, etc.). So, unless intellectual superiority is all you crave, his argument is mute.
Games aren't good enough for adults. ( Games aren't good enough for you. You deserve better. )
Funny how leaving out one word of the title on the main page will up your article's views significantly.
As for the Journey developer... meh, maybe he's got a point, but I don't see how it matters. To me, games are about whatever you want them to be (fun, education, escapism, etc.). So, unless intellectual superiority is all you crave, his argument is mute.
He's starting to sound like Jonathan Blow.
My respect for this guy just took a pretty sizable hit.
My respect for this guy just took a pretty sizable hit.
I concur somewhat, meaning that I don't agree with with this Jenova Chen person, but I too have quite the fondness of fighting games.JdaS said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: sometimes, after a hard and/or long days work, all I wanna do is shoot someone in the dick and laugh like a 10-year-old who's just discovered Beavis and Butthead (good times). Or to use the above poster's example of Prototype, sometimes I just wanna throw myself (literally) at a helicopter from halfway across the city (and lemme tell ya, it's some of the most awesome shit in the world).
As was the case with Braid and that dickpiston Jon Blow. Strange how the artsy types always seem to be absolute and utter cunts.ItsAChiaotzu said:
Because as we all know, the point of video games is to expand people's minds and teach them lessons about real life. Not to have some fun. That's just silly.
Chess is intellectually stimulating. I used to play with my grandfather all the time; but - and trust me on this one - it hasn't taught me any real world applications. You can argue it teaches strategy and planning ahead, but does it really? It seems to just teach chess strategy and planning ahead in chess.
He's kind of all over the place. First we need intellectual stimulation, then we need for the game to make us and another adult feel things; which is it? "Poker teaches deception". No, no it doesn't; it teaches you how to play poker. You are not suddenly Frank Abagnale because you can keep a straight face with a shitty hand.
And let's say I buy that argument; what is journey teaching me? How to slide around sand dunes? It seems to me he just likes playing poker and is trying to justify it in his bizarre world of criteria for "adult things".
Anyways, I think I see what he was trying to say; that the industry needs to grow up. THAT I can get behind, but the baffling parallels he's trying to draw are ... well, baffling.
He's kind of all over the place. First we need intellectual stimulation, then we need for the game to make us and another adult feel things; which is it? "Poker teaches deception". No, no it doesn't; it teaches you how to play poker. You are not suddenly Frank Abagnale because you can keep a straight face with a shitty hand.
And let's say I buy that argument; what is journey teaching me? How to slide around sand dunes? It seems to me he just likes playing poker and is trying to justify it in his bizarre world of criteria for "adult things".
Anyways, I think I see what he was trying to say; that the industry needs to grow up. THAT I can get behind, but the baffling parallels he's trying to draw are ... well, baffling.