Judge Awards Sony With Visitor IDs of PS3 Hacker's Website

[shadow skill]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit. The custom bootloaders on the PSP and the ability to store games on sd cards was another interesting thing (Sony eventually copied this.) being able to run Firefox on the PSP was another thing. Being able to play ogg or flac on your PSP is another thing. All possible because of exploits.

There is WiiMPC (Audio player), ftpii (an ftp server program.), WiiRadio (A shout cast client) and others. All possible because of exploits.

 

[JDKJ]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit.

"Not the sole purpose" doesn't get you off the hook. The legal standards are "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than." Inherent to both standards is the recognition that there could well be other purposes. But that there could be other purposes don't necessarily get you off the hook.

And, unless I'm sorely mistaken, Hotz' crack can be employed so as to bypass the PS3's ACM and allow the cracker to play pirated games. Is that not the case?

 

[shadow skill]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit.

"Not the sole purpose" doesn't get you off the hook. The legal standards are "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than." Inherent to both standards is the recognition that there could well be other purposes. But that there could be other purposes don't necessarily get you off the hook.

And, unless I'm sorely mistaken, Hotz' crack can be employed so as to bypass the PS3's ACM and allow the cracker to play pirated games. Is that not the case?

I would imagine that the ability to run custom firmware on the system could facilitate piracy. That doesn't tell us that such ability means that that is the exploit's primary purpose. It's primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system. That by itself has nothing to do with circumventing the copy protection on Bluray discs or PSN games.

But if all one needs is the ability to potentially run pirated games then OEMs would have reason to forbid people from installing their own operating systems on their computers. Or they could forbid version control software since it is possible to use version control software to circumvent serial keys.

 

[Illyasviel]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Don't dodge the question. Give a goddamn alternative.

I talk about the pornography industry because they are probably the industry hardest hit by piracy, and they've probably gone the farthest in their fight against piracy, having nearly entirely converted to the "freemium" model. If you truly want to talk about piracy, you'll eventually touch ground in pornography.

I can tell you all day that a screwdriver isn't to be used to screw screws into things, but that doesn't take away the slightest bit from the fact that is exactly what the screwdriver is designed to do. That's pretty much analogous to what Hotz is doing. Don't be deceived.

As for enabling DVD playback... why not just, you know, buy a DVD player? They're like USD20 now. OH YE GODS, THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME TWENTY BONES. I COULD NOT, FOR ALL ETERNITY, IMAGINE A BETTER REWARD.

If Hotz really wanted to just restore OtherOS or open up dev tools or some shit, he could've just written a shell that provides extensions for other software to run in. Did he do that?

 

[shadow skill]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Don't dodge the question. Give a goddamn alternative.
I talk about the pornography industry because they are probably the industry hardest hit by piracy, and they've probably gone the farthest in their fight against piracy, having nearly entirely converted to the "freemium" model. If you truly want to talk about piracy, you'll eventually touch ground in pornography.

I can wear a black coat and tell you all day that I'm wearing a red coat, but that doesn't make my coat not black. That's pretty much analogous to what Hotz is doing. Don't be deceived.

I didn't dodge the question I stated that your premise was broken because porn has to deal with externalities not related to piracy that prevent the standard mechanism of dealing with the problem from working. You will never get people to pay for porn with the rise of the because no one wants anyone to know what kind of fetishes they have. People are ashamed to pay for it, they don't want that box to show up on their doorstep so the neighbors can see. They don't want their family members to see. They are a bad example because of it. They have to deal with an external issue that has nothing to do with piracy but ensures that there is nothing they can do short of fundamentally altering the culture to make it acceptable to be known to watch porn.

The hacking movement on the PS3 heated up as a direct consequence of Sony removing the one feature that had kept a lid on the entire endeavor. You could already run a webserver, or mplayer, or MPC/MPD,etc. without having to bother hacking the machine.

Who the hell are you to tell me not to dodge the question when you don't even quote me in full or address all of the homebrew applications that have nothing to do with piracy that I mentioned that were possible because of exploits?

The entire fiasco over cracking consoles is like prohibition or the current drug war. Impossible to win, and the cause of the perceived problem in the first place. There weren't gangs shooting up the place over alcohol money until some people were dumb enough to turn people into criminals. All they did was increase the level of illegal activity. Same with the drug war decades later and it is the same now with all of these failed DRM schemes. Sony was 90% of the way to the solution when the PS3 first came out, they only would have needed to provide tools to work with the XMB side of things and not cripple RSX under Linux. Will there be pirates certainly but the big motivators were already GONE on the PS3. There is no region lock by default, importers don't need to hack, console games still are able to be rented so that problem is even lesser than it would be for PC.

Please don't think that you will ever get rid of this stuff 100%. Even when the government poisoned industrial alcohol to prevent prohibition era street chemists from creating drinkable alcohol that STILL did not stop people from drinking:http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/ (Incidentally lots of mixed drinks came into being because of the use of this industrial alcohol during the prohibition era.)

Edit updated to reflect your changes:

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Don't dodge the question. Give a goddamn alternative.

I talk about the pornography industry because they are probably the industry hardest hit by piracy, and they've probably gone the farthest in their fight against piracy, having nearly entirely converted to the "freemium" model. If you truly want to talk about piracy, you'll eventually touch ground in pornography.

I can tell you all day that a screwdriver isn't to be used to screw screws into things, but that doesn't take away the slightest bit from the fact that is exactly what the screwdriver is designed to do. That's pretty much analogous to what Hotz is doing. Don't be deceived.

As for enabling DVD playback... why not just, you know, buy a DVD player? They're like USD20 now. OH YE GODS, THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME TWENTY BONES. I COULD NOT, FOR ALL ETERNITY, IMAGINE A BETTER REWARD.

If Hotz really wanted to just restore OtherOS or open up dev tools or some shit, he could've just written a shell that provides extensions for other software to run in. Did he do that?

So enabling dvd playback is not a valid use of the exploits? Really that is your argument "It's not good enough." How would you write a shell on this system? How would you even begin going about that without having to do something like what he did in the end?

 

[Illyasviel]

Please don't think that you will ever get rid of this stuff 100%. Even when the government poisoned industrial alcohol to prevent prohibition era street chemists from creating drinkable alcohol that STILL did not stop people from drinking:http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/ (Incidentally lots of mixed drinks came into being because of the use of this industrial alcohol during the prohibition era.)

I edited my post before you put in your reply. You just didn't see it. It went along the lines of "OH GOD, DVD PLAYBACK IS THE GREATEST THING EVER." You however, failed to give any alternative that Sony can take, and instead, just talked about how the porn industry isn't the same industry ( no shit, Sherlock ).

Sony removed OtherOS because the PS3 hacking movement was heating up. Cause and effect.

Poppycock. My professor went to a hacking convention ( that I was originally planning to attend with him ) where they were teaching hackers how to lockpick the best locks money can buy. Do hackers need that skill? No. Why do they want that skill? Because that's just who hackers are. They just like breaking into things. I think you are aware of this giving your whole textbook explanation of the Prohibition.

You'll never completely stop homicide. Doesn't mean you don't try.

So enabling dvd playback is not a valid use of the exploits? Really that is your argument "It's not good enough." How would you write a shell on this system? How would you even begin going about that without having to do something like what he did in the end?

As was earlier stated, if the modification is only for the purpose of DVD playback, and no other purpose, than its fine. If another key feature of the modification enables piracy, than no, its not.

According to your logic, the only reason why the PS3 was hacked was because OtherOS was removed and never, ever, ever, ever to enable piracy. Therefore, if a shell existed, no further hacking would've occurred.

 

[Mcface]

This is the end of sony in North America.
They will no recover from this year.

 

[Mcface]

Please don't think that you will ever get rid of this stuff 100%. Even when the government poisoned industrial alcohol to prevent prohibition era street chemists from creating drinkable alcohol that STILL did not stop people from drinking:http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/ (Incidentally lots of mixed drinks came into being because of the use of this industrial alcohol during the prohibition era.)

I edited my post before you put in your reply. You just didn't see it. It went along the lines of "OH GOD, DVD PLAYBACK IS THE GREATEST THING EVER." You however, failed to give any alternative that Sony can take, and instead, just talked about how the porn industry isn't the same industry ( no shit, Sherlock ).

Sony removed OtherOS because the PS3 hacking movement was heating up. Cause and effect.

Poppycock. My professor went to a hacking convention ( that I was originally planning to attend with him ) where they were teaching hackers how to lockpick the best locks money can buy. Do hackers need that skill? No. Why do they want that skill? Because that's just who hackers are. They just like breaking into things. I think you are aware of this giving your whole textbook explanation of the Prohibition.

You'll never completely stop homicide. Doesn't mean you don't try.

You dont ruin your system for people who paid for it, because some people are using it in a way you dont like.

microsoft has a hacking problem, and always have. they didnt remove features, thy ADDED features that weren't compatible with the hacked xboxs.

 

[shadow skill]

Please don't think that you will ever get rid of this stuff 100%. Even when the government poisoned industrial alcohol to prevent prohibition era street chemists from creating drinkable alcohol that STILL did not stop people from drinking:http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/ (Incidentally lots of mixed drinks came into being because of the use of this industrial alcohol during the prohibition era.)

I edited my post before you put in your reply. You just didn't see it. It went along the lines of "OH GOD, DVD PLAYBACK IS THE GREATEST THING EVER." You however, failed to give any alternative that Sony can take, and instead, just talked about how the porn industry isn't the same industry ( no shit, Sherlock ).

Sony removed OtherOS because the PS3 hacking movement was heating up. Cause and effect.

Poppycock. My professor went to a hacking convention ( that I was originally planning to attend with him ) where they were teaching hackers how to lockpick the best locks money can buy. Do hackers need that skill? No. Why do they want that skill? Because that's just who hackers are. They just like breaking into things. I think you are aware of this giving your whole textbook explanation of the Prohibition.

You'll never completely stop homicide. Doesn't mean you don't try.

So enabling dvd playback is not a valid use of the exploits? Really that is your argument "It's not good enough." How would you write a shell on this system? How would you even begin going about that without having to do something like what he did in the end?

As was earlier stated, if the modification is only for the purpose of DVD playback, and no other purpose, than its fine. If another key feature of the modification enables piracy, than no, its not.

According to your logic, the only reason why the PS3 was hacked was because OtherOS was removed and never, ever, ever, ever to enable piracy. Therefore, if a shell existed, no further hacking would've occurred.

Actually that isn't my logic, my logic is that the removal of otheros motivated more people to begin hacking the hardware. It only magnified the "problem" way beyond where it would have been had they just left the functionality in PS3's. According to you cracking DRM would be illegal because it can facilitate piracy. Yet it is not actually forbidden see the exceptions to the rules like those for Ebooks and Smartphones. Ironically jailbreaking a smartphone also typically allows you to run custom operating systems on the device. Presumably one could use that ability to circumvent the protections of app store programs. Yet jailbreaking your smartphone is not illegal. Jailbreaking for a console is identical to that of smartphone jailbreaking in that you can theoretically use it to pirate games or other manufacturer approved software but the jailbreak's purpose is not to pirate games or circumvent the copy protection of other software products that run on the PS3.

Sony didn't remove otheros because of the Holtz's hack. They had been looking for a reason to remove the functionality for a long time because it was a maintenance nightmare. Hell they even issued statements saying that it would remain, and they had already fixed previous hypervisor exploits. Hotz just served as a convenient excuse for them. Even then it doesn't explain Microsoft who seems to be doing rather well despite the hacking going on, as is the DS and the Wii.

 

[Illyasviel]

You dont ruin your system for people who paid for it, because some people are using it in a way you dont like.

microsoft has a hacking problem, and always have. they didnt remove features, thy ADDED features that weren't compatible with the hacked xboxs.

Implying Microsoft is any nicer than Sony. Well, they did somewhat recently demolish Google in court.

My PS3, as well as millions of other PS3s, still run absolutely fine.

And if something comes along that bricks your product for using illegal software with it, well, that's your problem. You were doing something illegal.

Actually that isn't my logic, my logic is that the removal of otheros motivated more people to begin hacking the hardware. It only magnified the "problem" way beyond where it would have been had they just left the functionality in PS3's. According to you cracking DRM would be illegal because it can facilitate piracy. Yet it is not actually forbidden see the exceptions to the rules like those for Ebooks and Smartphones. Ironically jailbreaking a smartphone also typically allows you to run custom operating systems on the device. Presumably one could use that ability to circumvent the protections of app store programs. Yet jailbreaking your smartphone is not illegal. Jailbreaking for a console is identical to that of smartphone jailbreaking in that you can theoretically use it to pirate games or other manufacturer approved software but the jailbreak's purpose is not to pirate games or circumvent the copy protection of other software products that run on the PS3.

Hey, I'm going to play the completely different industry card on you as well now! Cellphones are completely different from games! Every month, you already pay for the right just to use your cellphone! They already have guaranteed revenue! If a phone was truly cracked, you wouldn't need a network, the goddamn thing would just work! Long story short, they don't really care because they already have money in their pocket! The gaming industry, obviously, is completely different! When you crack a game console and pirate games, nobody gets money anymore! That's why they care!

 

[shadow skill]

You dont ruin your system for people who paid for it, because some people are using it in a way you dont like.

microsoft has a hacking problem, and always have. they didnt remove features, thy ADDED features that weren't compatible with the hacked xboxs.

Implying Microsoft is any nicer than Sony.

My PS3, as well as millions of other PS3s, still run absolutely fine.

And if something comes along that bricks your product for using illegal software with it, well, that's your problem. You were doing something illegal.

Actually that isn't my logic, my logic is that the removal of otheros motivated more people to begin hacking the hardware. It only magnified the "problem" way beyond where it would have been had they just left the functionality in PS3's. According to you cracking DRM would be illegal because it can facilitate piracy. Yet it is not actually forbidden see the exceptions to the rules like those for Ebooks and Smartphones. Ironically jailbreaking a smartphone also typically allows you to run custom operating systems on the device. Presumably one could use that ability to circumvent the protections of app store programs. Yet jailbreaking your smartphone is not illegal. Jailbreaking for a console is identical to that of smartphone jailbreaking in that you can theoretically use it to pirate games or other manufacturer approved software but the jailbreak's purpose is not to pirate games or circumvent the copy protection of other software products that run on the PS3.

Hey, I'm going to play the completely different industry card on you as well now! Cellphones are completely different from games! Every month, you already pay for the right just to use your cellphone! They already have guaranteed revenue! If a phone was truly cracked, you wouldn't need a network, the goddamn thing would just work!

Actually you fail because if you can run Skype you don't need a carrier all you need is a wifi connection. Seems to be the in thing with my cousin's friends. Guess what Sony already has guaranteed revenue from console purchases, so exactly how is that different from Cellphone carriers/manufacturers? Oh wait it isn't.

Ps. You can buy smartphones directly from the hardware manufacturer unlocked usually so that you can at a minimum switch carriers easily. It is more expensive though. I didn't buy my last phone from a carrier I got it on Amazon with no contract whatsoever. I could use it for all sorts of things that did not require a cellphone provider at all.

 

[Illyasviel]

...because if you run Skype you're nobody's customer anymore? There is no money to be lost? Come back to me when you're pirating your access through their carriers and tell me they're not caring then? Because AppStore is a very Apple thing and Apple doesn't care about their partners because they are an evil company?

...when a console is modded with the intent to pirate, revenue is lost? A copy of a game that normally would've been taken off the shelf is now left on the shelf?

Just for once, stop thinking only through the viewpoint of a consumer and consider the big picture. Please?

 

[Defense]

You dont ruin your system for people who paid for it, because some people are using it in a way you dont like.

microsoft has a hacking problem, and always have. they didnt remove features, thy ADDED features that weren't compatible with the hacked xboxs.

They way they "don't like" will cost them a lot of money if it isn't fixed. Companies already have enough trouble turning a profit on a game when they sell a physical copy for a fraction of the price and only the retail stores see the profit for a used game.

It's called stealing, and stealing is wrong.

 

[shadow skill]

...because if you run Skype you're nobody's customer anymore? There is no money to be lost? Come back to me when you're pirating your access through their carriers and tell me they're not caring then? Because AppStore is a very Apple thing and Apple doesn't care about their partners because they are an evil company?

...when a console is modded with the intent to pirate, revenue is lost? A copy of a game that normally would've been taken off the shelf is now left on the shelf?

Just for once, stop thinking only through the viewpoint of a consumer and consider the big picture. Please?

For once consider that there is no way to actually stop hacking/cracking. You don't have to pay for Skype and other programs could be made that perform the same function that don't require a cellphone carrier in order to communicate with people. Come back when you figure out that your cel.lphone example is horribly broken since the carrier is no more guaranteed revenue than Sony is guaranteed revenue from games. People can buy a PS3 and not bother with any games at all.

 

[Illyasviel]

You know what, since you'll never acknowledge businesses having a right to defend themselves, instead of talking about the here and now, let's talk about the future.

Shadow skill's endgame:

Gaming industry gets severely pissed, pulls page out of RIAA / MPAA's playbook.

Headline: "New York teenager sued USD400,000 for possession of downloaded games."
Subheadline: "Teenager had four downloaded games in possession. Community appalled at USD100,000 per item penalty. Expert comments 'considering all things, this is only par for course.'"

They have every right to, and then we'll be stuck with another truly evil industry.

Thanks a lot. Or well, I'm not affected, so I guess whatever. Last year, I pirated two games total: Battlefield: Bad Company 2 ( which I then purchased a week later ) and Settlers 7. I probably purchased around twenty-four games. I'm pretty sure I get the slide.

Soooo... gooo gaming industry. Please just start suing the shit out of pirates. Than, maybe, just maybe, people will appreciate how good we have it today. Though, to be honest, I absolutely hate the fact that when I buy a music CD, a portion of that money is going towards dragging people into court with absolutely ridiculous penalties.

Gamers buy a PS3 and don't buy games? Laff.

 

[Mcface]

You dont ruin your system for people who paid for it, because some people are using it in a way you dont like.

microsoft has a hacking problem, and always have. they didnt remove features, thy ADDED features that weren't compatible with the hacked xboxs.

Implying Microsoft is any nicer than Sony. Well, they did somewhat recently demolish Google in court.

My PS3, as well as millions of other PS3s, still run absolutely fine.

And if something comes along that bricks your product for using illegal software with it, well, that's your problem. You were doing something illegal.

its fucking stupid that they claim it's illegal. It's like my car company coming and slashing my tires because I have an upgraded engine, or install a TV in the back. I paid for it. its my fucking property, ill do what I want with it.

 

[Illyasviel]

its fucking stupid that they claim it's illegal. It's like my car company coming and slashing my tires because I have an upgraded engine, or install a TV in the back. I paid for it. its my fucking property, ill do what I want with it.

Make a proper analogy.

"Its like my car company coming and slashing my tires because I have a stolen engine and installed a stolen TV in back. I didn't pay for it."

Then, yeah, I guess its kinda weird that your car company would come after you. Normally, the people that would be coming after you are the people you stole the engine and TV from.

So I guess you're saying Sony shouldn't be doing this, Ubisoft, Activision and EA should be doing this. Fair enough.

 

[shadow skill]

You know what, since you'll never acknowledge businesses having a right to defend themselves, instead of talking about the here and now, let's talk about the future.

Shadow skill's endgame:

Gaming industry gets severely pissed, pulls page out of RIAA / MPAA's playbook.

Headline: "New York teenager sued USD400,000 for possession of downloaded games."
Subheadline: "Teenager had four downloaded games in possession. Community appalled at USD100,000 per item penalty. Expert comments 'considering all things, this is only par for course.'"

They have every right to, and then we'll be stuck with another truly evil industry.

Thanks a lot. Or well, I'm not affected, so I guess whatever. Last year, I pirated two games total: Battlefield: Bad Company 2 ( which I then purchased a week later ) and Settlers 7. I probably purchased around twenty-four games. I'm pretty sure I get the slide.

Soooo... gooo gaming industry. Please just start suing the shit out of pirates. Than, maybe, just maybe, people will appreciate how good we have it today. Though, to be honest, I absolutely hate the fact that when I buy a music CD, a portion of that money is going towards dragging people into court with absolutely ridiculous penalties.

Gamers buy a PS3 and don't buy games? Laff.

All the people that buy a ps3 are not necessarily gamers. Or are you really trying to suggest that gamers are the only people who buy and use PS3's?

 

[Illyasviel]

All the people that buy a ps3 are not necessarily gamers. Or are you really trying to suggest that gamers are the only people who buy and use PS3's?

Bypassing actual dispute by attempting to focus on a side issue.

Also: List of non-gamers who purchased the PS3 - United States Air Force, university research organizations.

Also, also: Update was not mandatory.

Also, also, also: The people who don't use the PS3 for gaming is exactly why I said "gamers" and not "people." As in, I was purposely exempting those people already. As in I said that so you would say what you did so I could say what I'm about to say:

Guess what? They didn't apply the update. Nobody put a gun to your head and demanded you apply the update. You can also just use two hard disks. I think the notification about the update even listed this as an option. Probably why we haven't heard any complaints from them. Unless you mean the complaint where the USAF asked Sony to kindly continue producing PS3 fats. Their PS3s and my PS3s are working just fine.

 

[shadow skill]

All the people that buy a ps3 are not necessarily gamers. Or are you really trying to suggest that gamers are the only people who buy and use PS3's?

Bypassing actual dispute by attempting to focus on a trivial side issue.

It's not a trivial side issue it speaks to your previous argument about the intent behind Hotz's hack which does not by itself circumvent any copy protection on a game. The fact that not everyone who buys a PS3 is a gamer means that as a matter of fact one cannot assume that the ability to run custom software on a device means that anyone that exercises that ability is a pirate or intends to pirate. It also speaks to your previous argument with respect to cellphones being non comparable to consoles with respect to jailbreaking.
Not everyone for example who wants to own or in fact does own a smartphone needs or wants to use voice service on the device. Some people are deaf, for these people such functionality is useless. According to you it is impossible or otherwise improbable that such persons exist.

The potential for a sale doesn't matter. Should we ban a bad review because someone might not buy a product based on it? The argument falls apart when you examine the logic required for the argument to work and how it applies to a multitude of things that no one would dare ever say they had a problem with openly. Even the Congressional Budget Office has said that the numbers these corporations use are bogus and that they don't really give evidence of a significant impact on their business.

All the people that buy a ps3 are not necessarily gamers. Or are you really trying to suggest that gamers are the only people who buy and use PS3's?

Bypassing actual dispute by attempting to focus on a side issue.

Also: List of non-gamers who purchased the PS3 - United States Air Force, university research organizations.

Also, also: Update was not mandatory.

Also, also, also: The people who don't use the PS3 for gaming is exactly why I said "gamers" and not "people." As in, I was purposely exempting those people already. As in I said that so you would say what you did so I could say what I'm about to say:

Guess what? They didn't apply the update. Nobody put a gun to your head and demanded you apply the update. You can also just use two hard disks. I think the notification about the update even listed this as an option. Probably why we haven't heard any complaints from them. Unless you mean the complaint where the USAF asked Sony to kindly continue producing PS3 fats. Their PS3s and my PS3s are working just fine.

Do you have something meaningful to say or are you just going to keep spouting nonsense? That update wasn't optional it left you with a half functional device. Just because you use the word optional does not make it so, it was also unnecessary to remove the functionality from the system. I can't remember when the last optional update blocked you from accessing the PSN until you applied it before that "optional" update. Can you?