Judge Awards Sony With Visitor IDs of PS3 Hacker's Website

[Illyasviel]

Should we ban a bad review because someone might not buy a product based on it?

Applying crap logic.

Do you have something meaningful to say or are you just going to keep spouting nonsense. That update wasn't optional it left you with a half functional device. Just because you use the word optional does not make it so, it was also unnecessary to remove the functionality from the system. I can't remember when the last optional update blocked you from accessing the PSN until you applied it before that "optional" update. Can you?

Use two hard disks? Lol?

 

[shadow skill]

You know that the firmware isn't entirely stored on your hard drive right? You also cannot flash downwards either under normal circumstances, so how would two drives help you?

 

[Illyasviel]

Pretty sure I saw some instructions on the notification for the update that removed OtherOS about how an user could use partitions or the like, one updated for PSN, one for OtherOS. Something about a system restore.

I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect. Not sure why I would though because PCs can be had for less than a PS3... but okay...

The fact that you are such a proponent of OtherOS suggests that if Sony restored OtherOS you would throw GeoHot under the bus. After all, you would have what you want.

Do you or do you not recognize that the gaming industry could be suing the crap out of people right now, if they wanted to? Is that what you want?

 

[Mcface]

its fucking stupid that they claim it's illegal. It's like my car company coming and slashing my tires because I have an upgraded engine, or install a TV in the back. I paid for it. its my fucking property, ill do what I want with it.

Make a proper analogy.

"Its like my car company coming and slashing my tires because I have a stolen engine and installed a stolen TV in back. I didn't pay for it."

Then, yeah, I guess its kinda weird that your car company would come after you. Normally, the people that would be coming after you are the people you stole the engine and TV from.

So I guess you're saying Sony shouldn't be doing this, Ubisoft, Activision and EA should be doing this. Fair enough.

Uh no, he bought the PS3. Just like I bought the car.
Once it's mine, I should be able to do what i want with it.

 

[shadow skill]

Pretty sure I saw some instructions on the notification for the update that removed OtherOS about how an user could use partitions or the like, one updated for PSN, one for OtherOS. Something about a system restore.

I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect. Not sure why I would though because PCs can be had for less than a PS3... but okay...

The fact that you are such a proponent of OtherOS suggests that if Sony restored OtherOS you would throw GeoHot under the bus. After all, you would have what you want.

Do you or do you not recognize that the gaming industry could be suing the crap out of people right now, if they wanted to? Is that what you want?

They couldn't, there is a reason you don't see Microsoft remove nic drivers from their OSes the resulting counter lawsuits would bankrupt them. The RIAA/MPAA tried to sue the fuck out of everyone and ended up destroying their public image, and started to lose cases where people fought back the correct way. Those dorks even tried to sue a lawyer because he was telling people how to deal with their nonsense.

Sony is quickly moving in that direction if they screw the pooch and try to use the data they glean here to start mass lawsuits they will turn the tide of public opinion against and in short order the courts would follow. Their best bet is to look for failoverflow etc. But it won't matter, as not all the people hacking live in the United States and they may not have very good chances of winning in the E.U. For the record it seems that the subpoenas are attorneys eyes only which might mean that they cannot turn this into a long procession of individuals getting sued in this or other proceedings. Then there is the possibility that they may lose this action entirely. I wonder how Sony would be able to turn around and argue that people who downloaded the jailbreak that Hotz created violated the DMCA, I would expect that they would go for trafficking. But that seems to only apply to those that distribute said tools or other materials. Using the tools themselves would theoretically be a breach of copyright law.

 

[kurokenshi]

Pretty sure I saw some instructions on the notification for the update that removed OtherOS about how an user could use partitions or the like, one updated for PSN, one for OtherOS. Something about a system restore.

I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect. Not sure why I would though because PCs can be had for less than a PS3... but okay...

The fact that you are such a proponent of OtherOS suggests that if Sony restored OtherOS you would throw GeoHot under the bus. After all, you would have what you want.

Do you or do you not recognize that the gaming industry could be suing the crap out of people right now, if they wanted to? Is that what you want?

They couldn't, there is a reason you don't see Microsoft remove nic drivers from their OSes the resulting counter lawsuits would bankrupt them. The RIAA/MPAA tried to sue the fuck out of everyone and ended up destroying their public image, and started to lose cases where people fought back the correct way. Those dorks even tried to sue a lawyer because he was telling people how to deal with their nonsense.

Sony is quickly moving in that direction if they screw the pooch and try to use the data they glean here to start mass lawsuits they will turn the tide of public opinion against and in short order the courts would follow. Their best bet is to look for failoverflow etc. But it won't matter, as not all the people hacking live in the United States and they may not have very good chances of winning in the E.U. For the record it seems that the subpoenas are attorneys eyes only which might mean that they cannot turn this into a long procession of individuals getting sued in this or other proceedings. Then there is the possibility that they may lose this action entirely. I wonder how Sony would be able to turn around and argue that people who downloaded the jailbreak that Hotz created violated the DMCA, I would expect that they would go for trafficking. But that seems to only apply to those that distribute said tools or other materials. Using the tools themselves would theoretically be a breach of copyright law.

Yeah Sony is not looking so good to me anymore, this whole subpoena thing is casting them in a very bad light for me at least.

@Illyasviel: You seem to be taking this extremely personally you have some valid points regarding Sony wanting to defend themselves but the fact is they don't need every bit of information over the last two years to prove that people in California have gone to Hot's website. The issue for me is that I don't own a PS3 and yes I lol'd at Hot's rap video on Youtube does that make me a Dirty Pirate?

 

[JDKJ]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit.

"Not the sole purpose" doesn't get you off the hook. The legal standards are "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than." Inherent to both standards is the recognition that there could well be other purposes. But that there could be other purposes don't necessarily get you off the hook.

And, unless I'm sorely mistaken, Hotz' crack can be employed so as to bypass the PS3's ACM and allow the cracker to play pirated games. Is that not the case?

I would imagine that the ability to run custom firmware on the system could facilitate piracy. That doesn't tell us that such ability means that that is the exploit's primary purpose. It's primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system. That by itself has nothing to do with circumventing the copy protection on Bluray discs or PSN games.

But if all one needs is the ability to potentially run pirated games then OEMs would have reason to forbid people from installing their own operating systems on their computers. Or they could forbid version control software since it is possible to use version control software to circumvent serial keys.

I never said a thing about all that's needed is the ability to potentially run pirated games. That's not the two legal standards of the DMCA I quoted. I said "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than."

I have no hard empirical evidence, but my own observation and knowledge suggests to me that the number of folks out there that would be interested in running their own custom software on a PS3 is very small. I know several owners of a PS3 and not one of them run custom software on it or have any interest whatsoever in doing so. What evidence suggests to you that its primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system? And if you have no hard empirical evidence in support of that proposition, then perhaps you can now see why something as seemingly ridiculous as comments posted to a YouTube video concerning the crack could be informative of that issue and why Sony's interest in obtaining that sort of information isn't at all far-fetched.

For example, let's assume that Hotz uploads his video and and receives 100 comments thereto. Let's further assume that one of those comments says "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can run custom software on my PS3!" and that the other 99 say "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can play pirated games and Blu-rays on my PS3!" That information is not only relevant to the factual issues of "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than" but also tends to establish that the "primary purpose" of the crack is to play pirated games and Blu-rays on a PS3 and/or that the crack has "little commercial value other than" to allow playing of pirated games and Blu-rays on a PS3.

 

[Denamic]

Right, so because I've browsed his site and watched some of his videos, they now have my private information?
Just what the fuck?
No, seriously.
What. The. flying. FUCK?
This is retarded and outright illegal.
I hope they get sued into the ground.

 

[JDKJ]

Right, so because I've browsed his site and watched some of his videos, they now have my private information?
Just what the fuck?
No, seriously.
What. The. flying. FUCK?
This is retarded and outright illegal.
I hope they get sued into the ground.

Little more "mellow." Lot less "drama."

 

[nipsen]

Right, so because I've browsed his site and watched some of his videos, they now have my private information?
Just what the fuck?
No, seriously.
What. The. flying. FUCK?
This is retarded and outright illegal.
I hope they get sued into the ground.

Little more "mellow." Lot less "drama."

*shrug* ..it's still what happened. It's of course possible to argue that they actually can't use any of the info for any other court-case - even if that info revealed criminal behaviour. But the truth is that Sony can use the info to target people for "specific" issues - to "build a case" against anyone they please, and make their lives miserable. Very normal set of procedures for companies who can't find an actual crime to pursue.

Meanwhile, Sony also shares your private information at will with their external advertisement partners. They "feel" that this isn't an issue, since they have informed users of this fact in the ninteenth paragraph of the eight subsection... of the updated user-agreement.. that came into force three months after the external advertisement project had been started.

So therefore Sony dismisses any grounds to sue, and suggests it's their right to continue the activity. And any private person without a couple of million dollars in spare change - will be unable to change a judge's opinion on this. Because there's no actual "specific" damage you have suffered personally. ..yet. In other words, we're going to have to bank on Sony not being dumb enough to sue so many people they will start to get bad press. That's what the rule of law means.

..so any millionaire who wants to gain the admiration of millions of fans, while paying off their bad conscience a little bit.. I mean, gain some positive public exposure: this would be a good time.

 

[JDKJ]

Pretty sure I saw some instructions on the notification for the update that removed OtherOS about how an user could use partitions or the like, one updated for PSN, one for OtherOS. Something about a system restore.

I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect. Not sure why I would though because PCs can be had for less than a PS3... but okay...

The fact that you are such a proponent of OtherOS suggests that if Sony restored OtherOS you would throw GeoHot under the bus. After all, you would have what you want.

Do you or do you not recognize that the gaming industry could be suing the crap out of people right now, if they wanted to? Is that what you want?

They couldn't, there is a reason you don't see Microsoft remove nic drivers from their OSes the resulting counter lawsuits would bankrupt them. The RIAA/MPAA tried to sue the fuck out of everyone and ended up destroying their public image, and started to lose cases where people fought back the correct way. Those dorks even tried to sue a lawyer because he was telling people how to deal with their nonsense.

Sony is quickly moving in that direction if they screw the pooch and try to use the data they glean here to start mass lawsuits they will turn the tide of public opinion against and in short order the courts would follow. Their best bet is to look for failoverflow etc. But it won't matter, as not all the people hacking live in the United States and they may not have very good chances of winning in the E.U. For the record it seems that the subpoenas are attorneys eyes only which might mean that they cannot turn this into a long procession of individuals getting sued in this or other proceedings. Then there is the possibility that they may lose this action entirely. I wonder how Sony would be able to turn around and argue that people who downloaded the jailbreak that Hotz created violated the DMCA, I would expect that they would go for trafficking. But that seems to only apply to those that distribute said tools or other materials. Using the tools themselves would theoretically be a breach of copyright law.

Yeah Sony is not looking so good to me anymore, this whole subpoena thing is casting them in a very bad light for me at least.

@Illyasviel: You seem to be taking this extremely personally you have some valid points regarding Sony wanting to defend themselves but the fact is they don't need every bit of information over the last two years to prove that people in California have gone to Hot's website. The issue for me is that I don't own a PS3 and yes I lol'd at Hot's rap video on Youtube does that make me a Dirty Pirate?

the 2 years things to establish any conspirators i believe.
And i watched the video myself, all they can do with you having seen the rap video is say "this individual has seen this video", no harm can legally come to you. Had you gone to his website however your safety may not be so certain. But i honestly think sony would only chase down those with the correct downloaded file (because their the only ones harming sony). It's unnecessary cost to hunt down the rest, and the obviously wouldn't.

Did you really post a "LOL" to Hotz' YouTube video? Not to needlessly alarm you -- you're probably correct in asserting that Sony is unlikely to pursue you for that -- but, just to be on the safe side, I'd start wearing a tinfoil hat, if I were you. Better safe than sorry.

 

[ZombieGenesis]

About to enter practitioners course to become a Barrister.
After being a barrister, a Judge is the next step.

I shall herald a new dawn, where the legal systems looks in favour upon gamers and video games! Along with every other repressed nerd who went into law because they wanted their gifts to make them some cash.

 

[JDKJ]

Pretty sure I saw some instructions on the notification for the update that removed OtherOS about how an user could use partitions or the like, one updated for PSN, one for OtherOS. Something about a system restore.

I haven't tried it myself, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading something to that effect. Not sure why I would though because PCs can be had for less than a PS3... but okay...

The fact that you are such a proponent of OtherOS suggests that if Sony restored OtherOS you would throw GeoHot under the bus. After all, you would have what you want.

Do you or do you not recognize that the gaming industry could be suing the crap out of people right now, if they wanted to? Is that what you want?

They couldn't, there is a reason you don't see Microsoft remove nic drivers from their OSes the resulting counter lawsuits would bankrupt them. The RIAA/MPAA tried to sue the fuck out of everyone and ended up destroying their public image, and started to lose cases where people fought back the correct way. Those dorks even tried to sue a lawyer because he was telling people how to deal with their nonsense.

Sony is quickly moving in that direction if they screw the pooch and try to use the data they glean here to start mass lawsuits they will turn the tide of public opinion against and in short order the courts would follow. Their best bet is to look for failoverflow etc. But it won't matter, as not all the people hacking live in the United States and they may not have very good chances of winning in the E.U. For the record it seems that the subpoenas are attorneys eyes only which might mean that they cannot turn this into a long procession of individuals getting sued in this or other proceedings. Then there is the possibility that they may lose this action entirely. I wonder how Sony would be able to turn around and argue that people who downloaded the jailbreak that Hotz created violated the DMCA, I would expect that they would go for trafficking. But that seems to only apply to those that distribute said tools or other materials. Using the tools themselves would theoretically be a breach of copyright law.

Yeah Sony is not looking so good to me anymore, this whole subpoena thing is casting them in a very bad light for me at least.

@Illyasviel: You seem to be taking this extremely personally you have some valid points regarding Sony wanting to defend themselves but the fact is they don't need every bit of information over the last two years to prove that people in California have gone to Hot's website. The issue for me is that I don't own a PS3 and yes I lol'd at Hot's rap video on Youtube does that make me a Dirty Pirate?

the 2 years things to establish any conspirators i believe.
And i watched the video myself, all they can do with you having seen the rap video is say "this individual has seen this video", no harm can legally come to you. Had you gone to his website however your safety may not be so certain. But i honestly think sony would only chase down those with the correct downloaded file (because their the only ones harming sony). It's unnecessary cost to hunt down the rest, and the obviously wouldn't.

Did you really post a "LOL" to Hotz' YouTube video? Not to needlessly alarm you -- you're probably correct in asserting that Sony is unlikely to pursue you for that -- but, just to be on the safe side, I'd start wearing a tinfoil hat, if I were you. Better safe than sorry.

i didn't post on it. I rarely post on youtube. Unless someone is being stupid/racist/bigoted and needs a peg down. I don't evene remember my password atm ^^

There are YouTube posts that aren't stupid/racist/bigoted/thoroughly misspelled/apparently written by someone with no more than a fifth grade education? How come I can never find those?

 

[nipsen]

Did you really post a "LOL" to Hotz' YouTube video? Not to needlessly alarm you -- you're probably correct in asserting that Sony is unlikely to pursue you for that

That's not the point. The point is that they were able to subpoena the information from Hotz web-provider. And therefore will be able to legally obtain the names and addresses of anyone they think will be worth pursuing (i.e., by requesting names from the providers based on those addresses).

Even if it doesn't actually result in a court-case, the fact that a company was able to legally subpoena that data so easily - is unbelievable.

 

[JDKJ]

Did you really post a "LOL" to Hotz' YouTube video? Not to needlessly alarm you -- you're probably correct in asserting that Sony is unlikely to pursue you for that

That's not the point. The point is that they were able to subpoena the information from Hotz web-provider. And therefore will be able to legally obtain the names and addresses of anyone they think will be worth pursuing (i.e., by requesting names from the providers based on those addresses).

Even if it doesn't actually result in a court-case, the fact that a company was able to legally subpoena that data so easily - is unbelievable.

What's unbelievable about it? It happens everyday in countless civil lawsuits in the United States. If I had sued Bernie Madoff on the allegation that he had cheated me and countless other investors out of billions of dollars in an elaborate Ponzi scheme, you don't think I'd be able to get a subpoena allowing me to obtain from Mr. Madoff detailed information on each and every one of those other investors? I most certainly would. That information is both relevant to my suit and highly probative of my allegations.

 

[shadow skill]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit.

"Not the sole purpose" doesn't get you off the hook. The legal standards are "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than." Inherent to both standards is the recognition that there could well be other purposes. But that there could be other purposes don't necessarily get you off the hook.

And, unless I'm sorely mistaken, Hotz' crack can be employed so as to bypass the PS3's ACM and allow the cracker to play pirated games. Is that not the case?

I would imagine that the ability to run custom firmware on the system could facilitate piracy. That doesn't tell us that such ability means that that is the exploit's primary purpose. It's primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system. That by itself has nothing to do with circumventing the copy protection on Bluray discs or PSN games.

But if all one needs is the ability to potentially run pirated games then OEMs would have reason to forbid people from installing their own operating systems on their computers. Or they could forbid version control software since it is possible to use version control software to circumvent serial keys.

I never said a thing about all that's needed is the ability to potentially run pirated games. That's not the two legal standards of the DMCA I quoted. I said "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than."

I have no hard empirical evidence, but my own observation and knowledge suggests to me that the number of folks out there that would be interested in running their own custom software on a PS3 is very small. I know several owners of a PS3 and not one of them run custom software on it or have any interest whatsoever in doing so. What evidence suggests to you that its primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system? And if you have no hard empirical evidence in support of that proposition, then perhaps you can now see why something as seemingly ridiculous as comments posted to a YouTube video concerning the crack could be informative of that issue and why Sony's interest in obtaining that sort of information isn't at all far-fetched.

For example, let's assume that Hotz uploads his video and and receives 100 comments thereto. Let's further assume that one of those comments says "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can run custom software on my PS3!" and that the other 99 say "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can play pirated games and DVDs on my PS3!" That information is not only relevant to the factual issues of "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than" but also tends to establish that the "primary purpose" of the crack is to play pirated games and Blu-rays on a PS3 and/or that the crack has "little commercial value other than" to allow playing of pirated games and Blu-rays.

Except such comments don't really prove the primary purpose of the material that Hotz released. It only speaks to the intent of those posters to that video. I could do a web search and find all kinds of articles and comments that talk about the desire to restore Linux, and/or run custom firmware. Hotz's code by itself does not crack games it only executes a buffer overflow that bypasses the hypervisor. Now how that might facilitate piracy is up for debate, but the code he released doesn't have anything to do with the piracy of games.

As for the people who may have downloaded the jailbreak there is an exception for cryptographic research, as long as there is no evidence that people who downloaded the file distributed it and the rest of their actions fall under the exception Sony won't have much of a case. Unless they somehow trump up a copyright violation.

 

[JDKJ]

What does Hotz's work have to do with piracy? Is that it's sole purpose? Can it be used for other legitimate things? Are you seriously going to compare videogames to porn? Porn is an industry where people don't want anyone to see them buying it because of cultural stigma, games are not anywhere near that level. Sony did not have anywhere near the level of cracking going on until they removed Linux support from the PS3. Hotz was not even the first to do a hypervisor exploit he just found a particularly serious exploit.

Getting the Wii to playback DVDs is one example of an interesting application that was possible because of an exploit.

"Not the sole purpose" doesn't get you off the hook. The legal standards are "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than." Inherent to both standards is the recognition that there could well be other purposes. But that there could be other purposes don't necessarily get you off the hook.

And, unless I'm sorely mistaken, Hotz' crack can be employed so as to bypass the PS3's ACM and allow the cracker to play pirated games. Is that not the case?

I would imagine that the ability to run custom firmware on the system could facilitate piracy. That doesn't tell us that such ability means that that is the exploit's primary purpose. It's primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system. That by itself has nothing to do with circumventing the copy protection on Bluray discs or PSN games.

But if all one needs is the ability to potentially run pirated games then OEMs would have reason to forbid people from installing their own operating systems on their computers. Or they could forbid version control software since it is possible to use version control software to circumvent serial keys.

I never said a thing about all that's needed is the ability to potentially run pirated games. That's not the two legal standards of the DMCA I quoted. I said "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than."

I have no hard empirical evidence, but my own observation and knowledge suggests to me that the number of folks out there that would be interested in running their own custom software on a PS3 is very small. I know several owners of a PS3 and not one of them run custom software on it or have any interest whatsoever in doing so. What evidence suggests to you that its primary purpose seems to be bypassing the hypervisor to allow custom software to be run on the system? And if you have no hard empirical evidence in support of that proposition, then perhaps you can now see why something as seemingly ridiculous as comments posted to a YouTube video concerning the crack could be informative of that issue and why Sony's interest in obtaining that sort of information isn't at all far-fetched.

For example, let's assume that Hotz uploads his video and and receives 100 comments thereto. Let's further assume that one of those comments says "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can run custom software on my PS3!" and that the other 99 say "Woo-hoo! Thanks, George. Now I can play pirated games and DVDs on my PS3!" That information is not only relevant to the factual issues of "primary purpose" and "little commercial value other than" but also tends to establish that the "primary purpose" of the crack is to play pirated games and Blu-rays on a PS3 and/or that the crack has "little commercial value other than" to allow playing of pirated games and Blu-rays.

Except such comments don't really prove the primary purpose of the material that Hotz released. It only speaks to the intent of those posters to that video. I could do a web search and find all kinds of articles and comments that talk about the desire to restore Linux, and/or run custom firmware. Hotz's code by itself does not crack games it only executes a buffer overflow that bypasses the hypervisor. Now how that might facilitate piracy is up for debate, but the code he released doesn't have anything to do with the piracy of games.

As for the people who may have downloaded the jailbreak there is an exception for cryptographic research, as long as there is no evidence that people who downloaded the file distributed it and the rest of their actions fall under the exception Sony won't have much of a case. Unless they somehow trump up a copyright violation.

That would most certainly tend to establish either that the primary purpose of the crack is to allow piracy and/or it's commercial purpose is little beyond allowing piracy. If I'm sitting in the jury box and Sony presents evidence to me that 99% of those who received the crack used it for the purpose of playing pirated games and Blu-rays and only 1% of those who did used it for a purpose not involving pirated games or Blu-rays, then I'm gonna give Sony a check mark under the column headed "Has Sony Presented Evidence that the Circumvention at Issue in this Case is for the Primary Purpose of Allowing Piracy and/or Has Little Commercial Purpose other than Allowing Piracy?" Some other juror may disagree with me and not give them a check mark, but at least they'll have my check mark. Get enough check marks from the other jurors and -- you're smart enough to figure out what happens next.

Bear in mind that Hotz' subjective intent -- whatever that may have been -- has nothing to do with anything. It's all about what the objective evidence indicates.