Junior Seau Shot Himself Today

[bobmus]

That's pretty brutal. RIP

>Someone commits suicide
>Escapist turns it into a religion debate

This place blows sometimes.

The OP simply posted in a way that assumed the mother would be against suicide due to her religion, so this is why. Don't hate the game, hate the players!
Wait, but I'm playing... Don't hate me!

 

[TehCookie]

People die every minute, that was his choice and he got what he wanted so I can't even feel sorry for him. I never knew him so I won't miss him either.

 

[RoonMian]

I actually have always believed suicide is selfish.

Whenever I read stuff like that I automatically enter full on rage-mode.

The stuff about "choosing what you with your life because it is YOUR life etc." at least invokes semi-rage-mode.

Nobody just offs himself because he can. Suicide is the result of suicidal thoughts which are a symptom of a clinical depression. Just as death by lung failure is the result of a diseased lung which is a symptom of lung cancer.

Calling someone selfish because he died of the disease depression is like calling someone lazy because he is paralyzed and just sits on his ass in his weelchair all day.

For f**ks sake, know what you're talking about before you open your mouths.

 

[-Samurai-]

From what I understand, he was a pretty charitable guy that used his fame and fortune to improve the lives of those around him. He gave a friend of mine tickets to a Raiders/Chargers game just because my friend was a Raiders fan and hadnt been to a game.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

The rights of each and every individual should never be the end all of morality. His death unquestionably affected everyone he ever knew and who had ever held him dear. Suicide is among the most selfish things that a person could ever do, it is far worse than moving away from your family, it is abandoning them forever, along with every other responsibility you have ever had. It is certainly cowardly, as it always is when someone chooses to avoid a problem rather than confront it. Just because nobody has the right to keep you from killing yourself doesn't mean you ever should. There are a thousand things that people can and should have the right to do that are anything but right. Hating, lying, betraying, cheating, these are all things that should remain within each person's rights despite how wrong they are. Suicide should be considered in the same way, if not even to a greater degree.

Hey there Revnak, glad someone responded to that comment, it's always interesting to discuss.
It may affect everyone you know, but it doesn't make it a selfish act. It's one that affects you far more substantially than it affects anyone else, so I personally think that inherently makes it an act that is neither unselfish or selfish.
I wouldn't call it an act of cowardice either. There are times when taking your own life can seem like the only solution to your problems, with no other way of tackling them, so you would be taking on your problems head-on in that sense. Also if you're saying sticking a gun to your head doesn't take courage, I disagree massively.

The selfish individual being affected the most by an act does not stop the act from being selfish. An identity thief can take ten dollars from ten thousand bank accounts and would still be considered selfish. If he were then to burn all the money he would remain selfish. What determines whether or not an act is selfish is whether or not it is carried out with reasonable regard to all people who are affected, rather than disproportionately focusing on the self. Suicide is carried out with disproportionate focus upon the self. You die, they live on without you, questioning just what it is they could have done to keep you, to save you, what they did to kill you. You're simply gone.
I'm going to throw out that tired old fact about how the majority of suicide attempt survivors are glad they messed it up. Just because it seems like there is no other way doesn't mean there is no other way, in fact it almost never does. There is always another choice to be made, always something to live or die for, rather than something to die in avoidance of. Doing something in spite of fears is not true courage. True courage is doing something right despite fears. A man that kills his wife despite fearing the consequences is not courageous. Courage cannot, or at least should not be something selfish, rather it should be something selfless.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I actually have always believed suicide is selfish.

Whenever I read stuff like that I automatically enter full on rage-mode.

The stuff about "choosing what you with your life because it is YOUR life etc." at least invokes semi-rage-mode.

Nobody just offs himself because he can. Suicide is the result of suicidal thoughts which are a symptom of a clinical depression. Just as death by lung failure is the result of a diseased lung which is a symptom of lung cancer.

Calling someone selfish because he died of the disease depression is like calling someone lazy because he is paralyzed and just sits on his ass in his weelchair all day.

For f**ks sake, know what you're talking about before you open your mouths.

That is quite the assumption there. Committing suicide does not require chemical depression. Would you have us stop calling people with behavior issues murderers because they felt an impulse to kill? No, and a person's impulse to kill themselves does not justify their committing suicide.

 

[bobmus]

The selfish individual being affected the most by an act does not stop the act from being selfish. An identity thief can take ten dollars from ten thousand bank accounts and would still be considered selfish. If he were then to burn all the money he would remain selfish. What determines whether or not an act is selfish is whether or not it is carried out with reasonable regard to all people who are affected, rather than disproportionately focusing on the self. Suicide is carried out with disproportionate focus upon the self. You die, they live on without you, questioning just what it is they could have done to keep you, to save you, what they did to kill you. You're simply gone.
I'm going to throw out that tired old fact about how the majority of suicide attempt survivors are glad they messed it up. Just because it seems like there is no other way doesn't mean there is no other way, in fact it almost never does. There is always another choice to be made, always something to live or die for, rather than something to die in avoidance of. Doing something in spite of fears is not true courage. True courage is doing something right despite fears. A man that kills his wife despite fearing the consequences is not courageous. Courage cannot, or at least should not be something selfish, rather it should be something selfless.

Suicide is not equivalent to stealing something and then setting it on fire, that's a poor analogy. A better equivalent would be to compare it to setting your house on fire (assuming you live alone and have no insurance) - your decision will confuse and trouble many people you know, but ultimately you are the only one who has been displaced by your decision, and no-one else is directly put out.
Though your family may live on without you, the effect on their lives, no matter how large, will never be as great as it had on your life, as your life has been ended by your actions.
I might point out that I do not think suicide is ever the correct solution to a problem, but I would never be so callous as to judge against someone for choosing to take their own life.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

The selfish individual being affected the most by an act does not stop the act from being selfish. An identity thief can take ten dollars from ten thousand bank accounts and would still be considered selfish. If he were then to burn all the money he would remain selfish. What determines whether or not an act is selfish is whether or not it is carried out with reasonable regard to all people who are affected, rather than disproportionately focusing on the self. Suicide is carried out with disproportionate focus upon the self. You die, they live on without you, questioning just what it is they could have done to keep you, to save you, what they did to kill you. You're simply gone.
I'm going to throw out that tired old fact about how the majority of suicide attempt survivors are glad they messed it up. Just because it seems like there is no other way doesn't mean there is no other way, in fact it almost never does. There is always another choice to be made, always something to live or die for, rather than something to die in avoidance of. Doing something in spite of fears is not true courage. True courage is doing something right despite fears. A man that kills his wife despite fearing the consequences is not courageous. Courage cannot, or at least should not be something selfish, rather it should be something selfless.

Suicide is not equivalent to stealing something and then setting it on fire, that's a poor analogy. A better equivalent would be to compare it to setting your house on fire (assuming you live alone and have no insurance) - your decision will confuse and trouble many people you know, but ultimately you are the only one who has been displaced by your decision, and no-one else is directly put out.
Though your family may live on without you, the effect on their lives, no matter how large, will never be as great as it had on your life, as your life has been ended by your actions.
I might point out that I do not think suicide is ever the correct solution to a problem, but I would never be so callous as to judge against someone for choosing to take their own life.

Except you used to feed people there all the time, and your mother's favorite piano was still inside, and you best friend's baseball bat, etc. Other people have invested in you, left pieces of themselves in you, depend on you. When you kill yourself you are robbing them of that.
It doesn't matter if the overall effect on your life is bigger. All the matters is that they will feel extraordinary pain that you are gone and you will not. You are simply dead. It sucks to die, but it's hard to say you are really losing that much by dying if you willingly kill yourself. You did what you wanted, and that is a hard thing to feel sympathy for. The still living family members will go on and will have to experience the pain of losing you. That is not their own choice, it is not the result of their own actions, it is the result of your actions.

 

[RoonMian]

I actually have always believed suicide is selfish.

Whenever I read stuff like that I automatically enter full on rage-mode.

The stuff about "choosing what you with your life because it is YOUR life etc." at least invokes semi-rage-mode.

Nobody just offs himself because he can. Suicide is the result of suicidal thoughts which are a symptom of a clinical depression. Just as death by lung failure is the result of a diseased lung which is a symptom of lung cancer.

Calling someone selfish because he died of the disease depression is like calling someone lazy because he is paralyzed and just sits on his ass in his weelchair all day.

For f**ks sake, know what you're talking about before you open your mouths.

That is quite the assumption there. Committing suicide does not require chemical depression. Would you have us stop calling people with behavior issues murderers because they felt an impulse to kill? No, and a person's impulse to kill themselves does not justify their committing suicide.

Since he shot himself in his home and did not set himself on fire in front of the chinese embassy or something like that it is actually a pretty safe bet that a depression is involved here. You don't just overcome the strongest instinct inside most living things just like that.

And I'm not saying being ill justifies commiting suicide. I'm saying being ill dramatically decreases your ability to choose not to commit suicide up to the point where in a severe depression there is no choice left at all for the patient. A severe depression can even cause symptoms of a psychosis. So imagine being severely depressed, hanging by a thread, maybe even being totally convinced that your family would be better of without you... And then having a voice inside your own head telling you to end it.

Maybe that's what went down. Maybe it was different. There is no doubt about that guy having a severe psychological crisis to just end his life though. No one can ever know what actually went through his mind in that instant but I am sure it wasn't pretty. So any accusations of him being selfish are tasteless, ignorant and cruel.

That's all I am going to say on that matter. The tone in this thread just makes me too angry. And that remark comparing someone commiting suicide to someone who murders someone else... I'm not even going to honor that with an answer.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

*snip*

How about scratching their ass in public, slapping someone who made fun of them, taking off all their clothes in front of children because it is hot, cheating on their wife? All of these are the results of impulses, and impulses do not justify actions. And the quality of the act will always be selfish, just like it is always selfish to cut in line or to take the extra slice of pizza. No amount of terrible living or strange thoughts can change the fact that some actions are selfish. And I still don't necessarily believe he was experiencing chemical depression, which I still don't believe justifies suicide or removes its selfish nature.

 

[bobmus]

Except you used to feed people there all the time, and your mother's favorite piano was still inside, and you best friend's baseball bat, etc. Other people have invested in you, left pieces of themselves in you, depend on you. When you kill yourself you are robbing them of that.
It doesn't matter if the overall effect on your life is bigger. All the matters is that they will feel extraordinary pain that you are gone and you will not. You are simply dead. It sucks to die, but it's hard to say you are really losing that much by dying if you willingly kill yourself. You did what you wanted, and that is a hard thing to feel sympathy for. The still living family members will go on and will have to experience the pain of losing you. That is not their own choice, it is not the result of their own actions, it is the result of your actions.

I think that death is the ultimate pain you could feel, even more so than whatever pain has driven you to wanting to take your own life, and is the greatest thing to feel sympathy for. But we clearly give different value to different things here, which is what it fundamentally comes down to - the value you place on human life.
Anyway, I say we agree to disagree, if you don't mind? It's late and I've a movie to watch. Nice debating with you though, and kudos on keeping a civil head in your arguments.

 

[dyre]

That's pretty brutal. RIP

>Someone commits suicide
>Escapist turns it into a religion debate

This place blows sometimes.

The OP simply posted in a way that assumed the mother would be against suicide due to her religion, so this is why. Don't hate the game, hate the players!
Wait, but I'm playing... Don't hate me!

Yeah, it's mostly the OP's fault for trying to pick a fight. Don't worry, I don't hate you

 

[Syzygy23]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/junior-seau-dead-suicide-nfl-linebacker/story?id=16263047#.T6GV46trPpg

Damn. I actually live in Oceanside and used to go to the church his family goes to. All of my problems revolve around money, so it always blows my mind when someone who's rich and famous does something like this... Especially when they know how it will hurt their family. His mother is an avid church-goer who was at church when she heard the news. Being such a blatant suicide, he had to know his mother would think his soul was now enduring eternal torment for an unforgivable sin.

What drives people to this? I'll never understand.

If you do understand and you're still in that place, I advise you to read this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_15658_the-ten-minute-suicide-guide.html

Actually, many Christians are split on whether or not suicide constitutes a one way ticket to hell. The Bible says straight up that no matter how grievous your sin(s), as long as you accept Jesus, you will be forgiven. So if you accept Jesus before offing yourself, you're off the hook according to how the Bible explains it.

That, and as far as him being "eternally tormented in hell right now", I can assure you he's neither of those things right now. This is because A) Nobody actually knows what hell is like. No, there is no fire and brimstone and cackling red men with cloven hooves and pitchforks, as far as we know. The Fire and Brimstone imagery associated with Hell is the result of renaissance artists popularizing them. The ONLY thing the Bible says about Hell (and I mean literally the ONE and ONLY thing) is that "There will be a great gnashing of teeth".

Yeah, I don't know what to make of that either.

And B) Again, the bible states that death works differently than what Ghost Dad would have you believe, and what many people, both Christian or otherwise, commonly (mistakenly) believe. When you die, you're worm food. You sit in the ground and decay. Until the Rapture, when everyones body is supposed to be ascended into heaven. Your soul isn't some ghostly looking copy of yourself that rises out of your body and floats away to a pair of Golden Gates in the sky. Your body IS your soul.

No, don't ask me how that's supposed to work, I don't know, I don't think ANYBODY knows, or even if that's true, a mistranslation, or a fable one of the writers of the bible inserted as a way to troll future generations.

Either way, I'm sure this guy will be missed by those who knew him, and are much sadder without him around. Hopefully he either accepted Jesus or atheists/materialists turn out to be right (in which case, while he doesn't get to go to Heaven, he doesn't have to worry about hell either)

 

[Forgetitnow344]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/junior-seau-dead-suicide-nfl-linebacker/story?id=16263047#.T6GV46trPpg

Damn. I actually live in Oceanside and used to go to the church his family goes to. All of my problems revolve around money, so it always blows my mind when someone who's rich and famous does something like this... Especially when they know how it will hurt their family. His mother is an avid church-goer who was at church when she heard the news. Being such a blatant suicide, he had to know his mother would think his soul was now enduring eternal torment for an unforgivable sin.

What drives people to this? I'll never understand.

If you do understand and you're still in that place, I advise you to read this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_15658_the-ten-minute-suicide-guide.html

Actually, many Christians are split on whether or not suicide constitutes a one way ticket to hell. The Bible says straight up that no matter how grievous your sin(s), as long as you accept Jesus, you will be forgiven. So if you accept Jesus before offing yourself, you're off the hook according to how the Bible explains it.

That, and as far as him being "eternally tormented in hell right now", I can assure you he's neither of those things right now. This is because A) Nobody actually knows what hell is like. No, there is no fire and brimstone and cackling red men with cloven hooves and pitchforks, as far as we know. The Fire and Brimstone imagery associated with Hell is the result of renaissance artists popularizing them. The ONLY thing the Bible says about Hell (and I mean literally the ONE and ONLY thing) is that "There will be a great gnashing of teeth".

Yeah, I don't know what to make of that either.

And B) Again, the bible states that death works differently than what Ghost Dad would have you believe, and what many people, both Christian or otherwise, commonly (mistakenly) believe. When you die, you're worm food. You sit in the ground and decay. Until the Rapture, when everyones body is supposed to be ascended into heaven. Your soul isn't some ghostly looking copy of yourself that rises out of your body and floats away to a pair of Golden Gates in the sky. Your body IS your soul.

No, don't ask me how that's supposed to work, I don't know, I don't think ANYBODY knows, or even if that's true, a mistranslation, or a fable one of the writers of the bible inserted as a way to troll future generations.

Either way, I'm sure this guy will be missed by those who knew him, and are much sadder without him around. Hopefully he either accepted Jesus or atheists/materialists turn out to be right (in which case, while he doesn't get to go to Heaven, he doesn't have to worry about hell either)

Well like I've already said, I don't believe in hell (or anything religious) myself, but I know his family does and his mother was at the scene screaming in anguish. Also, at least in my church, I was always told the reason suicide was unforgivable was because you had to repent after committing a sin if you wanted redemption. This technicality made it impossible to repent for suicide, even if you accepted Christ into your heard. I've admitted I don't know what the Seau family personally believes, but my church rubbed parts with their family so I feel like I have a pretty good idea.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

I stopped replying to a bunch of posts because I had to go to work and I came back and someone was already making all the arguments I would have put forth for why suicide is selfish.

Also, why was I accused of picking a fight? How do you pick a fight and post an article on how to deal with suicidal thoughts in the same post?

 

[Hattingston]

And B) Again, the bible states that death works differently than what Ghost Dad would have you believe, and what many people, both Christian or otherwise, commonly (mistakenly) believe. When you die, you're worm food. You sit in the ground and decay. Until the Rapture, when everyones body is supposed to be ascended into heaven. Your soul isn't some ghostly looking copy of yourself that rises out of your body and floats away to a pair of Golden Gates in the sky. Your body IS your soul.

That's a legitimate interpretation, but it's not the only legitimate interpretation, the bible likes to be fairly vague about these sorts of things and leave them up to interpretation. I THINK I know what passage you're referring to, and I get why you would think that, but don't present it as the only valid interpretation.

In regards to the notes about hell and whatnot(not specifically Syzygy's comment), he committed A sin. Committing a sin doesn't constitute a one-way ticket to hell, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Christian who said otherwise. Part of Christian faith is to acknowledge that there were only two people entirely without sin, and those are Jesus and Mary. That would mean every pope, priest, bishop, parishioner, saint etc. is going to hell. Thankfully, that means that his mom won't feel pressured to believe that he's burning in hell forever. Still, a sad turn of events.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I actually have always believed suicide is selfish.

Whenever I read stuff like that I automatically enter full on rage-mode.

The stuff about "choosing what you with your life because it is YOUR life etc." at least invokes semi-rage-mode.

Nobody just offs himself because he can. Suicide is the result of suicidal thoughts which are a symptom of a clinical depression. Just as death by lung failure is the result of a diseased lung which is a symptom of lung cancer.

Calling someone selfish because he died of the disease depression is like calling someone lazy because he is paralyzed and just sits on his ass in his weelchair all day.

For f**ks sake, know what you're talking about before you open your mouths.

Exactly! Suicide, with the exception of when its used to escape pain such as in euthenasia or other extreme circumstances, is the result of psychological disorders. Theres no rationalising the madness that drives someone to attempt to take their own life because its not a rational thing to do.

 

[RoonMian]

I actually have always believed suicide is selfish.

Whenever I read stuff like that I automatically enter full on rage-mode.

The stuff about "choosing what you with your life because it is YOUR life etc." at least invokes semi-rage-mode.

Nobody just offs himself because he can. Suicide is the result of suicidal thoughts which are a symptom of a clinical depression. Just as death by lung failure is the result of a diseased lung which is a symptom of lung cancer.

Calling someone selfish because he died of the disease depression is like calling someone lazy because he is paralyzed and just sits on his ass in his weelchair all day.

For f**ks sake, know what you're talking about before you open your mouths.

Exactly! Suicide, with the exception of when its used to escape pain such as in euthenasia or other extreme circumstances, is the result of Psychological disorders. Theres no rationalising the madness that drives someone to attempt to take their own life because its not a rational thing to do.

But haven't you read the posts of that shining example of empathy, Revnak? He says that it's selfish of you if you don't control the impulses that drive you to suicide. And comparing it to scratching your ass in public and sexually abusing children he says you're selfish if your mental illness robs you of the control over your actions.

Just like, you know, it would be selfish of you if you got cancer and died leaving your griefing family behind. Have you ever tried... uh... like... just not being sick?

I hate that ignorant bullshit! This widespread attitude of people that someone who is mentally diseased should just "pull it together" and control himself is in my opinion one of the main reasons why people are too ashamed to search professional treatment especially when they are celebrities and the public observes every single move and even more so if they are professional athletes in a sport like american football with all the macho bullshit that surrounds it.

A few years ago Robert Enke (a famous soccer player here in Germany playing on the national team) commited suicide by jumping in front of the train and while the sensible people outweighed there were still a lot of people accusing him of every possible thing imaginable from being selfish to being a coward. THOSE people are the problem. But at least they are not alone in their ignorance.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Exactly! Suicide, with the exception of when its used to escape pain such as in euthenasia or other extreme circumstances, is the result of psychological disorders. Theres no rationalising the madness that drives someone to attempt to take their own life because its not a rational thing to do.

You can easily rationalise it. If you accept that there is no afterlife that means when one dies they have absolutely no consciousness or memory. Therefore, whether you die at the age of eighty of natural causes, or at the age of eighteen by your own hand, makes absolutely no difference once you're dead. Why prolong an inconsequential existence if you are not enjoying it?

 

[BringBackBuck]

To all those who are saying you don't understand his choice, he was selfish, weak or cowardly, check this out:

These are the results of studying the brain of former NFL great Dave Duerson who killed himself last year (also with a gunshot to the chest)
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/02/duerson.brain.exam.results/index.html

"A brain with CTE is riddled with dense clumps of a protein called tau. Under a microscope, tau appears as brown tangles that look similar to dementia. Except the cases of CTE have shown this progressive, dementia-like array in players well in advance of a typical dementia diagnosis, which typically occurs in the 70s or 80s."

It would seem likely that Seau, who played a tackle heavy position similar to Duerson may have suffered from the same brain injuries.

My best mate's mum just died from alzheimers last month. She got it really young and I remember going to his house in high school and thinking it odd that she couldn't remember my name even though we had meet a number of times. Ultimately she didn't even recognise her own family, and then was no longer able to function properly. She ended up in a care facility (in her 40s), and last month was no longer able to ingest food - basically her brain shut down to such an extent she "forgot" how to eat. My friend got the call from his Dad and the went to visit her and watched her die.

Anyone think she was weak? selfish? cowardly? Sorry to labour a point, but brain injuries are horrific things and awful for everyone to go through. If he suffered from a form of dementia, than the suicide is not a choice at all it is the consequence of making thousands of tackles wearing a big helmet that fucked up his brain and stopped it from working properly. That is nothing other than sad and tragic.


RIP Junior Seau.