Just because she isn?t saying no doesn?t mean she is saying yes

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

So if I get naked and make out with someone I'm obliged to sleep with them? What the hell is wrong with you? Hell, even if you have sex with someone once that doesn't obligate them to do it again.

No, but it's kind of expected at that point. You shouldn't be legally obliged to ask explicitly. Hell, someone drunk can even say yes and still pull the "I was drunk and they took advantage of me," card. Explicit consent shouldn't be a legal necessity because somewhere through the night, maybe when you started getting off with each other or when they came back to yours, hell it was probably when they took their pants off, there was consent.

If you have your pants off and don't wanna have sex then say no, but don't get pissed that they expected it. That's all I'm saying: if you don't wanna do something then say no, don't expect them to be able to read your mind or get pissed when they make assumptions.

 

[CaptainKarma]

So if I get naked and make out with someone I'm obliged to sleep with them? What the hell is wrong with you? Hell, even if you have sex with someone once that doesn't obligate them to do it again.

No, but it's kind of expected at that point. You shouldn't be legally obliged to ask explicitly. Hell, someone drunk can even say yes and still pull the "I was drunk and they took advantage of me," card. Explicit consent shouldn't be a legal necessity because somewhere through the night, maybe when you started getting off with each other or when they came back to yours, hell it was probably when they took their pants off, there was consent.

If you have your pants off and don't wanna have sex then say no, but don't get pissed that they expected it. That's all I'm saying: if you don't wanna do something then say no, don't expect them to be able to read your mind or get pissed when they make assumptions.

You did kinda imply it. But taking you at your word, how is that relevant to the discussion at hand? Just felt like having a rant about people not having sex?

 

[aestu]

You did kinda imply it. But taking you at your word, how is that relevant to the discussion at hand? Just felt like having a rant about people not having sex?

If someone puts themselves in a sexually suggestive/available position, and has sex without objection, it is unreasonable for them to them to later insist that they did not want to have sex.

 

[aestu]

So if I get naked and make out with someone I'm obliged to sleep with them?

No, but you'd be hard-pressed to plausibly argue it wasn't your intent.

And if it truly wasn't then you're a tool. You are committing abuse by pulling a man's strings.

How is it hard to get consent? I've had one night stands, it's easy to confirm. Somewhere between tops coming off and pants coming off a quick "you wanna do this?" reaffirms it. Easy. Takes barely a second.

Real people never do this. Flat out.

Besides, the woman can always deny it later. So what good does this do?

 

[CaptainKarma]

So if I get naked and make out with someone I'm obliged to sleep with them?

No, but you'd be hard-pressed to plausibly argue it wasn't your intent.

And if it truly wasn't then you're a tool. You are committing abuse by pulling a man's strings.

How is it hard to get consent? I've had one night stands, it's easy to confirm. Somewhere between tops coming off and pants coming off a quick "you wanna do this?" reaffirms it. Easy. Takes barely a second.

Real people never do this. Flat out.

Besides, the woman can always deny it later. So what good does this do?

Really? They dont? News to me. And the good it does is that YOU know, and the woman probably won't deny it later because, despite what this thread seems to think, women are not cruel evil demonspawn.

Yes, it's hard to argue that sleeping with them wasn't your intent. But that doesn't mean you SHOULD sleep with them. You can still say no, and your partner must accept that, doesn't mean we can't feel slightly bad for them getting shot down at the last minute.

 

[Marcus McLean]

I wish the OP had specified they were talking about women who WEREN'T unconscious/unable to give concent, and was talking about women that WERE fully aware of their situation. About half of these posts could have been more focused.

Can we stop talking about unconscious women now? It's pretty clear having sex with sleeping women is unacceptable, so let's just talk about the sensitive areas that people with brains will have to be careful of.

 

[Insomniac55]

If the other person is very intoxicated or incapacitated, somehow... Then obviously a lack of 'no' does not mean 'yes', as they are incapable of making that choice. To try anything with them is simply wrong, and would be considered rape.

Also totally not right. "They're drunk? Oh, totally incapable of complex thought." How many of people who make this claim actually drink? It's also unreasonable. Yes, taking advantage of a drunk person when you aren't also drunk is a dick move and getting them drunk so they'll have sex with you is actually date rape, but them being drunk and then complying is not rape; it's called a mistake and the people who make the claim that it's rape need to learn how to take some fucking responsibility for their dumb ass mistakes.

Can we make this the last rape/gender thread now? No? Yeah, I saw that coming.

Ah, perhaps I should have been more explicit. I didn't just mean taking advantage of someone who's had a bit too much... Drunk people, as uninhibited as they may be, still know what they're doing (first hand experience and all). You're still fully accountable for your *actions* when drunk. I'm referring to people who are so wasted that they can't resist... Ie, on the verge of passing out. So that would fall under your category of 'date rape'.

 

[ProtoChimp]

White straight men don't really need much protecting. They're white. They're men. They're straight. They get all the doors opened pretty much for them. Them fucking up... Is kinda on them.

Okay, I did totally listen to your whole point and I agree, but I am so gonna steal that line.

 

[Beliyal]

First off, in this case I'm assuming that there the guy isn't threatening the girl with anything, and that the guy isn't aware that she doesn't want to.

...

I'm sorry if any of this sounds offensive, or insensitive, and I'm not trying to blame the victim. However you should at least have the responsibility to let someone know that they are making you a victim. People can't always be expected to understand what's going through your head, if you don't want to do something to the extent that you'd feel tortured by it, then why don't you say something?!

The problem is, what if you are unable to voice what's going through your head because you're drunk, or drugged, or unconscious, or you've been hit, or you misjudge the guys intentions, or he doesn't voice his intentions clearly, or they simply regret in mid-act, or... You get the point. There are many situations where stuff happens too fast or the people involved are not completely sober. Of course, there could be a case of two drunken people, and they both don't know what's going on and they have sex and then the girl regrets and calls rape. I don't know what to say to that, besides that I'm disgusted by such behaviour. Regardless of gender, if you know that being drunk turns you into a retarded monkey, then don't drink or live with the consequences. However, our society is very sensitive to rape so most people are going to stand on the girl's side. And of course, there's just idiots who use false accusations to ruin someone's life. It's horrible to condemn someone falsely, but shit-people exist. Shit-people who accuse others of rape and shit-people who actually do rape. Shit-people can be any gender. What's worse? I'd say both are equally horrible, because both acts can ruin the life of the victim. What should we do about it? Educate people, strongly condemn and punish both acts.

 

[MetalMagpie]

My god. Mind reader!!!!

I was sitting here, in my room thinking: "You know what the escapist needs? MORE GENDER THREADS!!!!"

And then all of a sudden, from the ether THERE WAS ANOTHER GENDER THREAD.

[HEADING=1]LORD ALMIGHTY THANK YOU, I NEEDED MORE GENDER THREADS. I ASKED AND YOU HAVE PROVIDED. PRAISE THE LORD!![/HEADING]


OT You know the way the escapist has a religion and politics subforum? I think we need one for Gender Politics.

My thoughts. They are here. ^

Is it Rape Week on The Escapist or something?

I mean, is it? Should I have brought snacks? I never got any memos about it...

Great. I'm now giggling madly at my desk at work. Way to make me look professional!

 

[Jerkules]

Yeah, consent is not a tricky concept (or at least it shouldn't be). Seriously, people, how hard is it to make sure that partners/hook-ups actually want to fuck?

This, seriously? Are people really asking why it's the responsibility of the person initiating the sexual encounter to make sure they have the consent of the other person?

 

[Blade_125]

I do wonder why people need to play up things to make a big issue.

Why is this even worth creating a thread for? If she says no then you don't. If she is so drunk that she can't stand, or worse passed out then you don't.

This is as bad as men getting indignant over all the fake rape reports, because you know it happens so often that every single case should be doubted.

Do yourself a favour OP, don't waste your time worrying about things that are not a problem.

 

[Unsung]

Young retarded people shouldn't get drunk, and people shouldn't sleep with strangers.

Honestly, how hard is that?

The best way to bypass this entire issue is to build an actual, solid relationship with someone whom you can trust. The second best way to bypass this issue is to not get drunk in public. The third best way to bypass this issue is to not be pants-on-head stupid.

People want ultimate freedom from any values and morals and responsibility, but what we don't understand is that makes us less free, because we have to choose things like sex documentation to keep us safe from one another. How about not acting like horny mindless gorillas? Let's just take a step back and ask ourselves, "Is getting wasted and having sex with someone I met an hour ago a good or just thing to do?" The answer is no (this goes for men and women). Doing something like that to someone unconscious is sick and sadistic and evil in the worst way, and women (and men) should never be blamed as victims--HOWEVER, it's ill advised to pass out in a public place, which is day one common sense. It's like intentionally walking down a dark alley where you know you're going to get mugged. Does that make you responsible for a horrible crime? No, of course not (not your fault if you get mugged either), but it's about putting yourself in a safe environment and keeping yourself lucid.

TL;DR parenting has gone to hell. Kids don't know basic sense.

I'm not usually this preachy, but this whole issue just enrages me because it's an entire new level of degradation and stupidity.

 

[axlryder]

How about

'Never have sex with someone without their explicit consent'

Pretty damn simple.

Still, that part seems unnecessary. When me and my girlfriend first had sex we didn't need explicit consent, we knew we were both okay with it. It would really ruin the spontaneity if before anything happened we had to say "Are you SURE you want to do this?" "Yes, are YOU sure you want to do this?"

I'm not sure if there is some legal thing or what not, but I remember way back in college when they talked about rape they said that if the female didn't agree to each escalating action during intercourse it could still be considered rape because she didn't say yes to the next action. I don't know if it was true or they were bullshitting us, but the guy was like ok she says its ok to kiss, now she has to ok feeling her breasts, now she has to ok touching her vagina, now she has to ok penetration...etc.

Exactly, isn't it a lot easier for someone to just say when they're not comfortable? I don't want to go blaming the victim, but people should stick up for themselves to some extent, especially if doing so is as easy as saying one word.

We could just make sex easier for everyone and have both parties sign legal documents with a check list on what they do and do not want to do during the engagement and have a third party sign it and get it notarized.

That would save time and effort, plus you could keep a pair of them in your pocket right next to your condoms. However, finding the third party may be difficult to do on the go unless you're willing to check off the "Threesome" box

I dunno, a good night ruined because somebody forgot a pen. Sounds dicey to me.

 

[MetalMagpie]

How is it hard to get consent? I've had one night stands, it's easy to confirm. Somewhere between tops coming off and pants coming off a quick "you wanna do this?" reaffirms it. Easy. Takes barely a second.

Weird. I'm not saying I'd object, but I really can't think of a time a guy has ever literally asked for my consent like that. Maybe I'm just quite "assertive" in bed compared with a lot of women, but most of the time my consent is heavily implied by the fact I'm actively moving things along!



On the other hand, a woman can say "yes" and then change her mind. It's not like saying the word makes it a legally binding agreement. It's still up to her to make her feelings known if she - at any point - decides she no longer wants to continue with the activity.

Here's a good rule of thumb: If she's struggling or trying to push you away, double check that she's just being playful before you proceed.

I actually had this situation come up one of the first times I was with my current boyfriend. I gave him what was intended to be a playful shove - hoping he'd shove me back and we could get into a sexy-wrestling sort of mode - and instead he jumped away and said, "Sorry! Was I hurting you?"

After a brief discussion to agree what I would do if I actually wanted him to stop, we were good to go again.

Here's another rule of thumb: Don't have sex at all with someone who's paralytically drunk. In fact, that should probably be rule number one. If she's not incapacitated by alcohol/drugs, then it is absolutely her responsibility to make her feelings known.

That probably about covers it.

 

[SirPlindington]

My god. Mind reader!!!!

I was sitting here, in my room thinking: "You know what the escapist needs? MORE GENDER THREADS!!!!"

And then all of a sudden, from the ether THERE WAS ANOTHER GENDER THREAD.

[HEADING=1]LORD ALMIGHTY THANK YOU, I NEEDED MORE GENDER THREADS. I ASKED AND YOU HAVE PROVIDED. PRAISE THE LORD!![/HEADING]


OT You know the way the escapist has a religion and politics subforum? I think we need one for Gender Politics.

You know what? The way things are shaping up, I think you may be right.

OT: It really depends what the situation is like. If the girl is just being unassertive, she's completely sober, and she's just not telling the guy no when she could, then yeah,I suppose an incredibly, small, infetismallay part of the blame can fall on her. Most of it still rests with the guy, since he should've thought about it and used that amazing thing called a brain to figure out if she didn't want it (I would think body language would make it fairly obvious). And maybe he should even ask. But I'm fairly certain most rape doesn't work like that. Most of the time, the victim is probably in an "out of it" state if there is no violence involved, and therefore little to no blame should be placed on her, In my most humble of opinions.

But I'm confused as to how this could actaully happen. If she doesn't want it, wouldn't the fact that she's not taking off her clothes while the guy is be a bit of a hint? And if she is getting naked, why? Why doesn't she just, you know, not do it? I'm sort of confused. How would this work? All of this is assuming she's sober, so although blame still falls on the guy, it doesn't make a lot of sense why she would even go along with it. In that case it doesnt count as rape, more of a really creepy and awkward situation.