Karma Lost

[Paragon Fury]

^We don't know about that.

Mass Effect 2 is yet to come out.

 

[Leorex]

Fable 2 gives you a lot of room to do and act how you want

Yeah but in the end you still save the world. You can't join Lucien and go have an epic "Fuck the world" party.

Yeah, but afterwords you can go back and kill the townspeople and up their rent. Bwa ha ha! You pay me double! Bwa ha ha!

My Evil Land Lord dreams came true!

that was the best part of fable 2, kicking every one out of the houses, and watching there homless asses beg.

 

[Internet Kraken]

I have yet to play a game in which you can join up with the main villain and liked it.

It always feels forced. It's like the games gives you the option only because you demanded to have it. When it occurs it's unnatural and only seems to happen because you forced your character to do so, not because it was fitting for your character.

You don't need to be able to join up with the big bad villain if you have morality choices in a game.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I'm not so sure about Mass Effect. The actions you make don't ripple very much in that game...Each quest seems to only affect itself and the people involved. And anything evil you do is generally more of an asshole action than an evil action. Because you are still a soldier in the Alliance, even with your Spectre status.

Like I said, they make an attempt. I didn't say it always worked, or to the degree that people want it to

I consider anything they do a step back from Jade Empire, though. Death's Hand was so cool.

 

[Zydrate]

The one game that I felt the evil side was very, deeply evil: Jade Empire. It's the only game where being bad made me feel SAD.

 

[Doug]

There is something in video games that bothers me. And that is why we must almost always play the "good guys" or the "heroic freedom fighters". Obviously, there are exception to this rule, such as the GTA series, but all in all it is the general rule. And while I don't mind it....it bugs me that I don't even have the option to be the "bad guy", or use my own logic and feeling to decide who is good and bad.

Examples of this are numerous. Fallout 3 is a great game, I can't deny that. But why can't I be who I want to be? No matter what you do, you ultimatey... [SPOLIER] wind up helping the Brotherhood of Steel. What happens if I think they're wrong - what if I want the Enclave to win? I have the option to wipe the Enclave....but not the Brotherhood. Even the "neutral" path supports the Brotherhood.[/spoiler] Why can't I simply act in the way I want, actually affecting the outcome of the game, and having to deal with the consequences? Why must I be funelled down the "good", "bad" or "neutrak" path?

Primarily, this happens because its twice as much work in most video games to develop completely unique ended for each type of morality.

Some of the best times can be had in "Bad Guy" and "Gray" games where you're either the bad guy or allowed to make your own choices, and the world reacts. Crackdown was immensely fun and enjoyable for two reasons - because of the well-designed gameplay and (you'd know this if you finished the story) the fact that you're the law - you're the government, smacking down the crime and the people, causing copious amounts of colleteral damage along the way. Mass Effect is one of the best "gray" games to date, which gives you a gun, a mission, and sits on the sidelins drumming its fingers, waiting to see what you do. It doesn't judge you; it just lets you do you thing and tell you the results at the end. Even Fable II, a game about choices, shoehorns you at the end, sending you decidedly down one path or another.

Equally, in GTA4, its pretty much the same as 'Hero' type stories, only you're the anti-hero. Crackdown didn't really have a story or choices within that story - it was just "There's some bad guys, kick there buttocks". Hence it was simply an utter lack of story within the game that made you able to pick what you wanted.

I mean, I'm not against "good guy" games...but come on. Gives us a little wiggle room here devs - can't I be the guy who kidnaps the princess for once?

The problem is multiple paths normally equals multiple work loads to make sure they are all good, and given that not everyone will want to play all three paths, the developers tend towards different 'blends' of the same scenes - i.e. in Mass Effect, only the ending really changes, you still...

Spoiler

Going to go after whats-his-face and then have to stop Sorveign from recalling the Reapers - you can't decide to join up with Reapers and help usher them into the Citadel

So, what ends up happening is:-

1) A straight line path with either no moral choices, or low/no impact ones - the path is set, so no matter what you do the morality is set already: See Mario, GTA, Half-Life 1/2/Episodes, etc.

2) A fixed or near fixed primary path with multiple solutions to individual encounters - may have optional side quests that may or may not link with the primary path. The route and places along the route are normally the same no matter what you do: See Fable, Fallout 1/2/3, Deus Ex 2, etc.

About the most "open" game with a strong storyline and with impacts through the course of the plot is Deus Ex - for example, there is abit were...

Spoiler

You're ordered to execute a prisioner you've just taken. Now, your options seem to be:
1) Obey the order, kill the dude.
2) Refuse the order, try and let the dude live - however, your supervisor will kill him anyway....

HOWEVER! I eventually discovered to my surprise you had the option to refuse the order, AND THEN KILL YOU'RE SUPERVISOR! And the game would respond to it well - the evidence would be hidden by the guy minotoring your data feed, and it would seem to everyone else the prisioner killed your boss.

Further, I accidently wondered into the ladies room on the base once, and when you talk to the director of the base, he mentions "And for gods sake, stay out of the ladies room"

Anywho, even Deus Ex has a relativity fixed arch, although the ending you can select (Deus Ex 2, whilst prettier, was not as good as her older more experienced sister, if-ya-know-what-I-mean-through-an-overly-bizzare-link.

 

[scotth266]

I'm not so sure about Mass Effect. The actions you make don't ripple very much in that game...Each quest seems to only affect itself and the people involved. And anything evil you do is generally more of an asshole action than an evil action. Because you are still a soldier in the Alliance, even with your Spectre status.

Like I said, they make an attempt. I didn't say it always worked, or to the degree that people want it to

I consider anything they do a step back from Jade Empire, though. Death's Hand was so cool.

Heh. I always play the good guy though: being evil makes me feel all dirty inside. Tried to play through JE as evil: couldn't do it. I'll be doing a JE review eventually too.

 

[balimuzz]

Fable 2 gives you a lot of room to do and act how you want

Oh yeah. You can do anything except kill children. But you can get them taken from you!

And remember: when designing games, hide your children [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HideYourChildren].

But the limited narrative ability of games for the moment restricts what they can do other than force you down limited paths. If you're looking for games that try to defy the formula, go Bioware: they at least make an attempt.

I'm not so sure about Mass Effect. The actions you make don't ripple very much in that game...Each quest seems to only affect itself and the people involved. And anything evil you do is generally more of an asshole action than an evil action. Because you are still a soldier in the Alliance, even with your Spectre status.

I have to agree with Onyx on this one. There is really no wiggle room in terms of the fact that you always end up saving the universe. Fallout actually seemed to have a little more wiggle room in that people's reactions to you were different, depending on what your karma was. Mass Effect's characters only responded to you differently if you did something good/evil in a quest that they were personally involved in.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

In Deus Ex you CAN choose to join the Illuminati. You can also choose to destroy all human civilization, or to merge with the superpowered AI Helios.

In Deus Ex 2 you can choose to allow the religeous extremists win and usher in a new era of inquisition and torture, you can side with the Illuminati and usher in an era of total complete human surveilance and no freedoms, you can side with Helios and merge everyones minds into a commune thing where a single world dictator (helios) makes all the decisions, OR, you can side with no one and doom the human species to destruction. Literally, the world ends.

 

[Sparrow]

Fable and Fable II.

Theres not much of a grey area, your either a saint or a prick. The storyline for both is about revenge.

In Fallout 3 on the other hand... you can't knock the storyline. The Brotherhood and The Encalve are neither good or bad guys. They're trying to do the same thing, through different means. They're BOTH asses.

 

[Khazoth]

Mirrors Edge, you're basically taking down a utopia.

You're taking down a "utopia" who controls all aspects of its people lives and monitor their lives giving them little to no freedom.

You deliver information between rebel groups to help attempt to overthrow the dictatorish government. They also kill off the only politician working for more civil freedoms.


...Yep, your a real ***** in that game huh?

 

[Sporky111]

I can't wait for the day when the majority of games give you choices and at the end, give consequences instead of "what ending do you want".

 

[cptjack42]

Because it would be really, really hard to make. Think about it: they'd have to pretty much make two games at the same time.

 

[Khazoth]

I want a game where you can be completely neutral, the Han Solo type. The type of person that is only concerned with how much they can benefit, but they are not a baby eating, puppy kicking saturday morning cartoon villain.

 

[throwitinthetrash]

This is why I hate the Tenpenny Tower quest in FO3
You can let the ghouls in, or eat their faces.

Spoiler

If you let them in, they kill everyone and apparently that's a great thing by the game's view simply because they're oppressed. If you kill them all, you're a racist jackass (which Three Dog will let you know.) If you take the diplomacy path, however, your actions seem noble. Then the ghouls proceed to kill everyone.

I don't care if they're 'better people' because they don't have everything, *I* want the tower intact because I prefer it's regular residents. And to kick you in the balls even more, the "bad" path forces you to miss out on one of the best headgear pieces in the game (If I really wanted to, I could just use console commands, though. )

It's frustrating to play games that spout freedom then give you choices that are retarded.
Being evil doesn't make me a cursing, asinine turd.

 

[MarsProbe]

This is why I hate the Tenpenny Tower quest in FO3
You can let the ghouls in, or eat their faces.

It's frustrating to play games that spout freedom then give you choices that are retarded.
Being evil doesn't make me a cursing, asinine turd.

Yep, that really annoyed me too. Once I had discovered that the Ghouls had

Spoiler

murdered all the remaining residents of Tenpenny Tower, I really wasn't amused. You go to all the trouble of allowing them to peacefully live alongside the remaining residents and they respond by killing anyone who isn't like them? Now who are the prejudiced ones?

Once I'm ready, I plan to dispose of them in a suitably ironic manner. That'll teach them.

 

[throwitinthetrash]

This is why I hate the Tenpenny Tower quest in FO3
You can let the ghouls in, or eat their faces.

It's frustrating to play games that spout freedom then give you choices that are retarded.
Being evil doesn't make me a cursing, asinine turd.

Yep, that really annoyed me too. Once I had discovered that the Ghouls had

Spoiler

murdered all the remaining residents of Tenpenny Tower, I really wasn't amused. You go to all the trouble of allowing them to peacefully live alongside the remaining residents and they respond by killing anyone who isn't like them? Now who are the prejudiced ones?

Once I'm ready, I plan to dispose of them in a suitably ironic manner. That'll teach them.

What REALLY sucks is that

Spoiler

Even if you kill every single ghoul after letting them in the tower and getting your reward, all the tennants will still die. Maybe smell, or a magic rat came out of one the the ghoul's skull's...

It doesn't even follow the the basic things that 4 year olds understand.

Dead things don't do stuff.

 

[MarsProbe]

What REALLY sucks is that

Spoiler

Even if you kill every single ghoul after letting them in the tower and getting your reward, all the tennants will still die. Maybe smell, or a magic rat came out of one the the ghoul's skull's...

It doesn't even follow the the basic things that 4 year olds understand.

Dead things don't do stuff.

Oh my, that is bad. The other thing, when I went into the basement area of the tower after the quest was finished you question one of the Ghouls about the pile of bodies stashed in the basement. All very strange, considering the fact there wasn't anything down there besides a feral and some old tins of paint. Cleverly stashed behind a misplaced texture, I presume...

 

[throwitinthetrash]

Oh my, that is bad. The other thing, when I went into the basement area of the tower after the quest was finished you question one of the Ghouls about the pile of bodies stashed in the basement. All very strange, considering the fact there wasn't anything down there besides a feral and some old tins of paint. Cleverly stashed behind a misplaced texture, I presume...

That's supposed to happen. That's where they stash all the bodies, and apparently a feral went to town.

 

[TheRockNRolla]

Examples of this are numerous. Fallout 3 is a great game, I can't deny that. But why can't I be who I want to be? No matter what you do, you ultimatey *SPOLIERS* wind up helping the Brotherhood of Steel. What happens if I think they're wrong - what if I want the Enclave to win? I have the option to wipe the Enclave....but not the Brotherhood. Even the "neutral" path supports the Brotherhood. Why can't I simply act in the way I want, actually affecting the outcome of the game, and having to deal with the consequences? Why must I be funelled down the "good", "bad" or "neutrak" path?

Red Faction: Guerrilla is another example of this. While the game itself will undoubtably be great, it makes the same decision of making me some puny little "freedom fighter" against some big, oppresive government/police/corporation thingy. What about those of us who don't think he is a "freedom fighter"? What about those of us who think the "Red Faction" are just bunch of punk-ass snobs who deserve no mercy other then a quick curb stomp to the face? Why do we have to your idea of the "good guy"? Further, why make a game about destruction....and the make us be the faction that doesn't have the toys to actually make use of it? You can't have true destruction without tactical missile strikes people.

Some of the best times can be had in "Bad Guy" and "Gray" games where you're either the bad guy or allowed to make your own choices, and the world reacts. Crackdown was immensely fun and enjoyable for two reasons - because of the well-designed gameplay and (you'd know this if you finished the story) the fact that you're the law - you're the government, smacking down the crime and the people, causing copious amounts of colleteral damage along the way. Mass Effect is one of the best "gray" games to date, which gives you a gun, a mission, and sits on the sidelines drumming its fingers, waiting to see what you do. It doesn't judge you; it just lets you do you thing and tell you the results at the end. Even Fable II, a game about choices, shoehorns you at the end, sending you decidedly down one path or another.

Why would you use a game that actually lets you choose a path, and then use another game, that doesn't? Using more games that are actually driven by your choices would make more sense since this topic is about that.