Keep Gaming For Gamers

[DannyDamage]

I own a Wii and a DS and I know what you mean about some of the shoddy attempts at games, I really do.

But I must protest that I'd also group Guitar Hero/Rock Band with the same "games" that are spoiling it for the elite few, like yourself. I'm personally not a fan of said games, but many "hardcore gamers" are.

I'd say games are already in the mainstream, have been for some time now and your rant is a little too late. Good shot though!

 

[Jumplion]

Fools, all fools.

If you want what's best for gaming, breaking out of our cult status into mainstream is the best choice.

The Ultraness of Joe speaks.

Listen. Do you hear the wind?

 

[TOGSolid]

Don't worry, eventually some dev locked away in the bowels of E.A's dungeons will churn out E.T. 2 to the masses and the industry will reset itself after it crashes again.

You know you're an old gamer when you can remember actually trying to play that abomination on your Atari. >.>

 

[InsanityBaronOfAtrocity]

Well gaming is going to go mainstream if you like it or not. What that'll do to the actual quality of the games I'm not sure, but it's likely quality levels will plummit.

 

[t0mme]

I'm getting tired of this dichotomy. Elitist/Hardcore vs. casual/mainstream. There are good and bad mainstream games just as there are good and bad hardcore games. And there will always be good and bad games in either category. Besides, I would rather play a good 'casual' game than a crappy 'hardcore' game. And which divine being decides whether a game is 'casual' or not? The godess of reviews and ratings? The god of sales figures? The patron saint of utter randomness? Your mum? Or some internettwat with a Messiah complex...? Stop being such a pompous prick and play the games you like, regardless of their 'casual'-factor. Gaming is for fun, it's not about getting worked up because Wii Sport Resorts outsells Okami.

To give an example: I like Dwarf Fortress just as much as I like Mario Kart Wii (btw, if you do believe in this dichotomy and you haven't played Dwarf Fortress (or a random roguelike), you're absolutely casual!). I don't have this nagging voice in my head laughing at me when playing Mario Kart Wii, nor do I feel 'good', 'supreme' or 'smart' when playing Dwarf Fortress. And sure, I don't like Wii Sports Resorts, but I don't like the Diablo franchise as well.

Your own personal taste is more important than this black and white belief in mainstream=bad and hardcore=good.

And btw, I'm fully embracing my Wii. Every time my girlfriend invites a dozen of her friends over they'll spot the Wii and want to get going with it. A living room full of Wii-ing girls is a magnificent sight and I don't care it's brought along by so-called 'casual' games. Especially if you turn the central heating a couple of notches higher...

 

[electric discordian]

I'm getting tired of this dichotomy. Elitist/Hardcore vs. casual/mainstream. There are good and bad mainstream games just as there are good and bad hardcore games. And there will always be good and bad games in either category. Besides, I would rather play a good 'casual' game than a crappy 'hardcore' game. And which divine being decides whether a game is 'casual' or not? The godess of reviews and ratings? The god of sales figures? The patron saint of utter randomness? Your mum? Or some internettwat with a Messiah complex...? Stop being such a pompous prick and play the games you like, regardless of their 'casual'-factor. Gaming is for fun, it's not about getting worked up because Wii Sport Resorts outsells Okami.

To give an example: I like Dwarf Fortress just as much as I like Mario Kart Wii (btw, if you do believe in this dichotomy and you haven't played Dwarf Fortress (or a random roguelike), you're absolutely casual!). I don't have this nagging voice in my head laughing at me when playing Mario Kart Wii, nor do I feel 'good', 'supreme' or 'smart' when playing Dwarf Fortress. And sure, I don't like Wii Sports Resorts, but I don't like the Diablo franchise as well.

Your own personal taste is more important than this black and white belief in mainstream=bad and hardcore=good.

And btw, I'm fully embracing my Wii. Every time my girlfriend invites a dozen of her friends over they'll spot the Wii and want to get going with it. A living room full of Wii-ing girls is a magnificent sight and I don't care it's brought along by so-called 'casual' games. Especially if you turn the central heating a couple of notches higher...

Hmm In england a room full of Wiiing girls has a certain different meaning, personally you would make a fortune on certain specialist websites!

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

I see you've bought into the whole casual vs. hardcore theory as well.

I think you should read this

I'm surprised no one's really commenting on this. Even though I just read it, that article is way sexy. Good find, poleboy.

There's been an awful lot of talk in the gaming community about gaming becoming more mainstream and open towards non-gamers. I put it to you that we should NOT try and expand or reach out to the mainstream. I posit that we should let those who don't game discover gaming for themselves or just stay away. I say let those who believe we are all GTA psychopaths continue to believe exactly that.

The reason being that the mainstream sucks. It is especially true in this day of Hilton worship and lowest common denominator entertainment that we should keep gaming as the last bastion of 'intelligent' media.
Sure, we still get the crappy games based loosely around some piss poor IP or movie tie-in, and indeed we should keep those if we are to get anything of quality off the back of it.

But imagine how much worse it's going to get. The Wii is churning out some absolute dross that these otherwise non-gamers are buying in bulk. Okami should have been a sure fire hit on that console...

So lets keep gaming to ourselves. Lets be supportive to our community whatever our tastes and keep those who buy Wii music at arms length until they show a genuine interest in something deeper.

Even before reading poleboy's sexy, sexy article, I was already well on my way to disagreeing with you.

First thing's first:
In for the chicken, in for the coup is not a good way to plunge someone into a market. Genuinely think, as hard as you can, about a game like... we'll say EVE Online [http://upload.0x1011.org/files/LearningCurve.jpg], as your first video game. With the setup of that game, you'd very likely feel alienated before you even got started. The more higher-skilled players that attempt to explain but fail, the worse off you start to feel.

Imagine if your first venture into "hardcore" gaming was that alienating. You'd likely never play games, on the nature that it's too frustrating or difficult. (Hell, I did that for "I Want To Be The Guy," as well as the fact that I didn't find it fun or appealing in the least.)

Do you honestly want to say because you got baby-steps and they didn't, they're less qualified to be lumped in the same category as you? If that is, then congratulations: You're pretentious!

Assuming I misread you, which is very likely the case, then at least approach the industry with some more understanding. Games like Galaga [http://www.smiliegames.com/galaga/] paved the way for games like Ikaruga [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGNSdcy-apU]. Saying that games like Galaga shouldn't exist because they lack depth is... absurd.

Oh, and another thing... Why hasn't the Wii sold to hardcore gamers? Just for giggles, head to your local game store and ask anyone, even if they know their stuff about gaming, and ask them what age group the Wii is for. They'll all swear up-and-down it's a useless system, child's games and elderly people and not much else. So anyone who would normally buy one only falls in those age groups. Think there's a reason Rock Band and Okami aren't selling for the Wii?

Because gamers of that tier either never bought one, or got rid of it before they knew what was going on. Frankly, Nintendo's strategies have alienated the 'hardcore' kids by not clearly explaining what was up, but that doesn't mean they aren't still looking at them. Games like Okami prove it.

Stop looking at gaming, and the newer gamers, like they were a blight on the system. They're instead just a different target audience.

Besides, the Wii has good games, just no one bothers owning one long enough to find them. The 'hardcore' market certainly isn't saturated, but that doesn't mean it's not available. Just look.

And read poleboy's article [http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html].

 

[crepesack]

too late cant stop little (and sometimes larger counterparts) retards from getting their cheeto stained fingers off that keyboard or controller and their disgusting crumb filled spit off their mikes

 

[The Wooster]

I agree with the good gentlemAn. We don't want video games, the last bastion of the intelligent and the creative to start pandering to the stupid massses.
While TV and popular music (except Tool, Tool are totally awesome while being totally popular. Like Jesus Christ) have always catered to the lowest common deominator, video games have always appealed to well.. how can I put this? A better class of people.

 

[Da_Schwartz]

I dunno this is always a silly debate or discussion whener it comes up.. I know what your saying, its all about quality control. DOn't want the masses to ruin the overall level of play by pushing out just about anything..like what reality TV did to prime time television and brought in some of the highest ratings of all time...

But to me i think it has alot to do with tecnology as well. It changes fast and i always felt quailty of games represent that as well. Not like we've been locked into the cartridge days of 8 16 32 or 64 bit the last 10+ years small steps..gaming nowadays is growing by HUGE leaps and bounds very quickly. last gen console launches before they were all pushed to their capable limits is a far cry from where the bars rests today. Were talking sixasis, wii motes..dual layered dvds, HD processing. Im sure we'll all be fine. Could take more then 3 yeras or so.. it usually does. I don't think we've seen what any of these console can truly do yet.

 

[danne dkd]

good point

i was going to try to say something smart, but that will do
god im bad at this

 

[bok]

that we should keep gaming as the last bastion of 'intelligent' media.

That is one hell of a laughable thing to say, must be 16 or so right?

 

[The_Deleted]

Not only has Kanada514 nailed the exact point I was trying to make, he's also put it far more eloquently.
While a lot of others seem to be looking for some thin venner of controvery for the sake of it.
I'm not arguing about Hardcore / Casual. I am casual.
I'm not saying the wii is a bad thing, anything that can get families interacting again and having fun must be a good thing.
My worry is more cost = less risk. In game advertising will only be appropriate for certain games and while games that ride on the coat tails of movies or kids cartoons do sell, the fact that they do suggests the market can & will become flooded with dross.
If the economy carries on going tits up, then developers will certainly not be taking risks for some time.

Could take more then 3 yeras or so.. it usually does. I don't think we've seen what any of these console can truly do yet.

Agreed, but if publishers and developers go for the easy option we may not get the same level of quality titles that we did in the PS2's heyday.

 

[Cyclomega]

Gaschambers? Pfft, what we need are some casualchambers!

That was in horrible taste.

Yet I lol'd.

OP, I see your point, I understand it, but it's a losing battle.
First, the difference between mainstream and shitty exists. Game companies won't reach everyone just with license ports, and "gaming" games will continue to appeal dedicated gamers, who will drag friends in, and so on, so forth...

Second, and corollary to reason #1, casual people don't give a shit about deep games, they just want to stop playing cards when people come at home, hate scrabble, and want to be hip, cool and modern (and being modern means living in a white flat, dress in white and play a white console from Japan... wait whit-erm I mean what ?). Shitty games come because license tie-ins are cheap and easy to sign, Nintendo has been very lazy on the GBA, and is doing worse now. There are great titles still, but don't be fooled, laziness is the key.

Hardcore, to me, means those retards teking vidya gaems as sport or serious business, those obsessive-compulsive maniacs analyzing fightan gaems frame-by-frame to find who's got the best jumping SK, and that kind of retardation sucking all the fun out of a game...

Your comparison is basically vain to me in that "casuals" play a game like they'd chat, to kill time, and "hardcores" scorn games that are not meant to ruin your life in front of a screen becoming some kind of demigod noone cares about...

There will always be people who hate games, people who like them, and what matter is that people play. I have met video gamers who like nothing like mini-games collections, and more casual people (whose favourite past time are flash games and The Sims 2) who can nontheless sink hours into Silent Hill or Fatal Frame and emerge terrified yet thrilled and happy of the fun...

It's always the same empty controversy that leads to nowhere... Let people play, and let the snobbish rot away (and steal their consoles and money, for great justice).

 

[felixader]

Oh please!

What kind of disscussion is this?

Oh man, let me tell you my point of view:

First: Let those people alone and have there fun. Yeah i am more or less pissed that my Wii collects Dust and that quality is no meaning any more on a Nintendo Console, even if the Nintendo Franchaises still are great quality. But i will not let my days shade by a stupid hate or frustration or even the thougth that Games are the "intelligent" media. (OH GOD PLEASE, HOW STUPID IS THIS)

Second: Alone this Fall and Winter are more great, challenging and really entertaining games than ever entering the Consoles, much more than a sole gamer can play (and a teen gamer can buy ^^).
So i see there rigth now not a single reason to complain about that there is not enough for the so called "Hardcore Audience".

Third: Since my deeper going into the Hobby of playing games, which began with the start of the N64, there was always crap an every console. I mean just remember, besides the great stuff on the PSone, how much crap that console alone had running under its Name.
Let us take as example comics that were made into movies, for a long time the whole lot of them had been more or less plain crap, but what comes out now is real high quality in every way, if its the last Iron Man or the just plain amazing Dark Knigth.
The same counts on the TV Series, which i am not so much into cause i like more to act in the story through games, but series like Heroes or Jericho and so on keep me beeing interested in letting the TV on for some evenings, after a long time of TV Crap. Sometimes they are rigth now even better as some Cinema Movie(who besides the few examples suffered in the last years of low quality on a lot sides).

What i mean is; rigth now there is a lot of crap swinging with rest, but the crowd of those (i hate those names, it feels nearly wrong like rassism Oo) "casuals" will grow on there interest and, besides the fact that there ALWAYS is some crap, will start to ignore the sh#t of it which again will bring those companys to make more kompley and high quality stuff.

Fourth and last:
A lot of those who call themselfs "Hardcore Gamers" compare "komplexity and Quality" with nothing else than Graphic details instead of looking for the gameplay and fun of it.
And if there is a game that takes more credit into that, comments are often like "lol wut s that? looks laik crap! Woot".
This too is a part of your so called "intelligent media" users!

In the same Way there is NOTHING wrong with trying to keep a control scheme for an Game easy to acces and fast to understand, THIS too is a way to get away from those often far overloaded controllers.
Do not get me wrong here, i like it to control my charakter with two sticks an all the buttons available, but (as example) if a game offers in nearly every of its menus,like GTA did, an other button for getting back or off from them instead just using one button on everyone of those, than it is even stupid uncomfortable for a game that is aimed at the hardcore people and really needs an overthougth.

In this way i see just Good Things in trying to get controlls easier and more comfortable.

So, enough time lost on this.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

I think the PC game guy has a point, We have literally hundreds of Bejeweled/Bookworm/Peggle type of games making millions of dollars a year, but the people who play them are generally not the ones who will rush out to buy Portal or Call of Duty 4 or even movie tie in games.

I recently installed Portal on my mother's friend's PC, who is nearly 70, as she sounded interested in trying a new puzzle game.

Sadly the whole concept of WASD and using the mouse to 'look around' was so alien to her, I had to teach her to lift the mouse and replace it in the middle of the pad to make larger turns.

It seems so simple to me, but I can understand, and to give her credit, she's persevering, although I feel when it comes to moving platforms and timed jumps she's going to have trouble. I think she's finding the whole 'moving around a 3d environment' quite interesting and new.

I think given time, some of the new wave of casual gamers will want to expand what they play, and that can only be a good thing, after all, were we all not new once?

I started out shooting space invaders, its quite a step from that to something like Startopia, or Eve Online.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

I'm gonna throw in a vote for easier controls too, I've had offers of joining in refused so many times because they know I'm gonna say, ok' A does this, B does this, unless you're holding R, then it does this'.

Some games need all the buttons sure, but there's a hell of a lot to be said for 'context sensetive'.

Also, Buzz was genius in its simplicity, who doesn't like quiz shows, really? Yes, I know you're far too cool to like em, but you do really. You could hand anyone who's ever seen a quiz show what is essentially a buzzer, with 4 coloured buttons on it, and they know what to do! They'll see the buttons, and the coloured answers, and you don't need to spend an hour explaining.

 

[The_Deleted]

I'm long past being 'too cool' to worry about what I should and should not like.
Again this is NOT about Casual or hardcore. This is about dumbing down, an awful phrase I know, just because something is dumbed down for the masses does not dictate that that is what the masses want.

I'm really suprised at some of the vitriol to be honest. Every time something gets into the mainstream it will be diluted for mass consumption. Do you hoenstly believe that a developer that knows it can shift another High School Musical gmae is going to be remotely concerned about the next Beyond Good & Evil?

 

[Cyclomega]

SenseOfTumour: I don't really care about Buzz since I prefer Trivial Pursuit with my friends as a console-operated quizz show that costs me more than my TP board, but I have seen tons of anti-gamers turn curious when they saw me, the "hardcore obsessive gamer" who plays with a PSP buy Guitar Hero, and almost all wanted to see if they could pretend they were rocking out big time.

Turns out, they still hate me because I can play a real guitar and like "hardcorer" games (translation : I have Killzone and Atari's Transformers on PS2), plus I was the "EVIL" guy in class, but they still think Guitar Hero is awesome.

I remember when I tried WiiSports at a friend's place, we tried baseball and bowling. It was fun, and I know it's great for everyone because the focus is on fun, and that what matters.

That's also why I like Picross DS, it's fun. Even if I'm more seduced by both Megaman ZX.
And it's a shame the PSP lack good exclusives.

 

[Cyclomega]

I'm long past being 'too cool' to worry about what I should and should not like.
Again this is NOT about Casual or hardcore. This is about dumbing down, an awful phrase I know, just because something is dumbed down for the masses does not dictate that that is what the masses want.

I'm really suprised at some of the vitriol to be honest. Every time something gets into the mainstream it will be diluted for mass consumption. Do you hoenstly believe that a developer that knows it can shift another High School Musical gmae is going to be remotely concerned about the next Beyond Good & Evil?

I think you confuse developers and editors. A developer is most likely aiming to make a great game, a beautiful game. An editor seeks money, and seeks it fast, that's why, to me, so many games were rushed because they were overannounced and overhyped, so they had to meet an unrealistic deadline.

And as we try to point out, license tie-ins only appeal to kids and fans, there are tons of mass media people who are very critical of these video games (I know CSI fans who hate the CSI games and toys, for instance). And you have these same mass media people who are very happy to try Guitar Hero (it's less frightening than DDR apparently), and who'd like to play Final Fantasy (I knew a girl who never played FF, but knew three full storylines by watching her boyfriend play, she liked just watching the game), they're just afraidn of being sucked in.