Keyboard and mouse are losing the FPS market

[Treblaine]

Ars Technica's argument hardly needs rebuttal, they cite only 6 million out of 11 million playing Left 4 dead on console with a gamepad as a reason to ignore mouse+keyboard, when that is barely half. They point out how similar the numbers of concurrent daily users of TF2 and Halo are, being only 7% higher for halo.

And this is all very irrelevant as you can still play on PC with a gamepad. Steam's Big Picture mode is ALL ABOUT 100% gamepad support.

But I think to spite any prejudice at Bungie... Activision will insist on a PC release of some sort, eventually. They did so for all their COD series and of course they are partners with Blizzard (people forget the company is actually Activision-Blizzard) who is totally 100% committed to PC having make mega bucks releasing PC exclusives.

 

[Treblaine]

That's funny because I can't play a FPS on a computer because I find the keyboard/mouse setup makes them damn near unplayable

Frankly, I'm going to let the little girl in the taco commercial take over here...

Why not indeed taco girl....why not indeed.

That's what you get on PC. You can use either a gamepad or mouse+keyboard.

Steam has made a big deal of this with Big Picture Mode with very comprehensive gamepad controls.

But consoles don't give you that option... you can't even use gamepads with square thumbstick housings and hardly ever even get to remap controls.

best captcha ever: are you a human?

 

[Treblaine]

I'm firmly of the opinion that the vast majority of people will stick with the control scheme they started with: if the first FPS you played was on PC, the chances are you're stuck in your groove and won't be able to get your head round gamepad FPS-ing, and vice-versa.

What really irks me is why other people who use kb+mouse get so aggressive about it: they are two different markets that, to my knowledge, never cross each other except in one single game (Shadowrun). Some people complain about menu systems being designed for gamepads not mouse+kb, and in some cases that's true, but it's nothing to get worked up about.

Just chill

Well... it's HARD to chill when we see our only chance of getting a game with our preferred control input be sabotaged by some developer who says blatantly wrong things like mouse and keyboard are irrelevant after Halo. I mean they can't even release it on PC with clear focus on gamepad? I mean they've done that with games like Arkham Asylum/city and even the Street Fighter IV set.

How would you like it if you had the same happen to you? If a game you knew and loved playing with a gamepad only was playable with mouse and keyboard?

Then you'll get an idea of where we are coming from. It's not different markets, we all love these FPS game, we PC gamers are interested in games like Destiny but we don't want to have to use a gamepad and actually there are a lot of PC gamers who would want to play it on PC with a gamepad.

BTW: steam is campaigning hard for gamepad support and they are getting results, working very well with Big Picture mode. And on PC you have such a wide selection of gamepads available to you.

 

[Snotnarok]

Those numbers seem a bit skewed let's be honest. Then again given you at any point can see the number of people playing a shooter on steam I think you can view that yourself.

There's no contest, if you're looking to aim better it's going to be better & easier with a mouse, that's not to say it's preferable in some cases of just wanting to sit back. But the shooters typically are skewed on console to allow players easier shooting with the analog sticks, auto-aim & enemies who for some reason seem to take a long time aiming and jumping left and right thinking about shooting you, so it's kind of ...insulting playing on a console with some games. You really feel babied when they have enemies doing that crap.

 

[Treblaine]

Let's call this thread what it is - PC vs console in disguise. For reasons that have been beaten to death already, KBM will always dominate in gameplay in an FPS scenario; analogue sticks simply don't have the combination of speed and precision you get with a mouse.

Yeah, I've been playing a lot of Red Dead Redemption and I'm using "Expert" aim, so no lock-on.

Le-sigh

I have fiddled with every setting, even tried with and without one of those "FPS Freek" thumbstick extensions. I have HUNDREDS of hours, I cannot make it work without in game crutches like the dead-eye "slow-mo" or "

I've come to realise that the slow-mo ability in RDR isn't just a perk, it's a down right necessity without the lock-on of the aim which I don't trust for how often it targets an innocent and sabotages my honour-gauge. But shots I get consciously get with a mouse. Oh how I wish I could play Red Dead Redemption with true mouse aim... I'd feel like a real wild west gun-slinger.

That's the thing, with thumbstick aiming there are have to be so many auto-aiming elements, it's taking away control from the game, it's taking away agency. Or obvious cheats like slowing down time SO MUCH. RDR the dead-eye has to slow it down 10x it's so slow. But I cannot get the speed and precision with thumbstick.

There it goes beyond preference, the game would be totally different with mouse aim. You'd be able to make the shots you actually get in the game of distant moving targets without needing to practically freeze time nor have the reticule lock-on.

This is most stark with Max Payne 3 on PC, switching from gamepad to mouse, and in the end with a mouse I stopped using the slow mo at all. I could get the shots easier just at normal speed and found things like the slow-mo-dives just a liability half the time except where the game contrived to have me in the open.

 

[Callate]

The funny thing is that it appears the next generation's hardware is much more closely going to resemble the PC in terms of the underlying hardware. Hypothetically, conversion from one to the other should be easier than ever; doubly so in the likely event that reducing costs leads to using a handful of popular engines (Unreal, CryEngine, Frostbite) on many of the games that come out on the new hardware.

'Course, if Microsoft continues to f@$% things up with their insistence that everyone play their way on the PC or they'll take their ball and go home, the PC gaming market might take a fatal beating from the tablet market. Time will tell; we live in "interesting times".

 

[Auron]

Sure, m/k make you more precise in a fps, but I don't see that as a plus. All it means is that everyone's getting more easy headshots, dieing more quickly and it becomes almost completely twitch/reaction based with position, cover etc counting for less. Sometimes that needs to be compensated for by making players move faster and have more health, but either way it just becomes a different style of game.

If I want to drag "realism" into it too, it's impossible to move around a gun as fast and precisely as a mouse anyway, but that's fairly moot.

Besides, I can sit on a couch/bed/floor in any position while using a controller.

I don't get that, so less control and more "wait for them to show up on the crosshair" is good? Strategy depends on the game, the mouse doens't make it twitchy just gives you far more control and a way higher skill ceiling.


While I can believe some people are more comfortable with their gamepads, I cannot believe some would argue they're equal to a decent high DPI mouse. The point is moot and it isn't even a PC vs consoles debate as there are controllers on the PC as well. I particularly use my mouse and keyboard for everything sans Flight simulators and the odd racing game if I ever play 'em and like it very much. On a more inflamatory note wish more games would offer cross-platform it would be funny especially the RTS and FPS, GFWL tried it with Shadowrun and Universe at War but it failed miserably(Because we refused to pay the live gold on the Computer when even shitty services like Gamespy didn't charge us.) and even if it didn't this conversation would still be happening because Bungie's apparently a bunch of pretentious assholes.

 

[Treblaine]

If that were the case, why would you care? If you truly believe that the mouse/keyboard combo gives you such an edge over me, why would it matter to you if I wanted to use my controller in a battle to the virtual death with you?

Well for one PC games tend to be much more team oriented, you not being good wouldn't be good for the team you are on. Unless you go something like a Heavy, but even they benefit hugely from a gamepad.

Still, you are welcome to the party, many PC games have gamepad support. If only consoles could return the gesture and support mouse + keyboard anywhere near as much as PC games support gamepad.

You'll probably do fairly well for a beginner with a gamepad on a game like Team Fortress 2, if you stay to suitable classes like medic or Heavy. But you're going to hit a skill wall, there is a reason why big competitive LAN events gamepads are almost nowhere to be seen. Even for driving games, keyboard warriors are common. I can't explain how so many can never beat their best performance on keyboard with a gamepad.

Personally I was raised playing racing games with a gamepad... but playing Dirt 3 on PC I am fairly good with a gamepad's thumbstick, I surge ahead in performance and CONSISTENT performance using JUST a keyboard and JUST one hand. I don't know why or how.

I am speaking as someone with extensive experience on both consoles and PC.

What is your experience with PC gaming? If any. Otherwise your comparative assessment might be quite lacking.

That being said, why the fuck does it matter which one is better? The same argument can be applied to every console war and every single high-horse "I'm a PC gamer so I'm automatically better than you!"

Question? How is anyone on a "high-horse" or "elitist" if they say anything of a TYPE of controller being more precise?

This isn't like saying PC "gamers" are better. This is simply the options you get with PC are better and nothing stops anyone else getting them as well, there is no fundamental line dividing console and PC gamers. We are not "different markets" as many people have baselessly suggested.

To give you an idea of how this comes across:

"Say, you were talking about restaurant food, you should try this restaurant I like to go to, it's really nice"

"ooh there you go on your high horse, with your restaurant elitism. Look, I haven't been to that restaurant before, I'm used to eating at another place, stop telling me about how another restaurant is better... GOD! It's probably more expensive"

"It's not more expensive"

"Yeahhh, yeah yeah. Would you stop going on about your restaurant."

 

[Evil Smurf]

I always mouse and keyboard, you just can't beat wasd and curser for precision.

 

[WanderingFool]

I find that neither is really better than the other for me they both have their pros/cons. I dont like playing FPS on PC because I always find myself reaching for buttons, or hitting buttons I dont want to hit, and such. But I wont argue against the fact that KB/M has more percision and quickness to it.

I guess I just dont really care for one over the other...

BTW, what was the point of this thread? Just to post those two links and light a fire?

 

[ResonanceSD]

That's funny because I can't play a FPS on a computer because I find the keyboard/mouse setup makes them damn near unplayable

Frankly, I'm going to let the little girl in the taco commercial take over here...

Why not indeed taco girl....why not indeed.

Why can't we have both? Because KB/Mouse players will shred gamepad users in any FPS.

 

[Treblaine]

Sure, m/k make you more precise in a fps, but I don't see that as a plus. All it means is that everyone's getting more easy headshots, dieing more quickly and it becomes almost completely twitch/reaction based with position, cover etc counting for less. Sometimes that needs to be compensated for by making players move faster and have more health, but either way it just becomes a different style of game.

If I want to drag "realism" into it too, it's impossible to move around a gun as fast and precisely as a mouse anyway, but that's fairly moot.

Besides, I can sit on a couch/bed/floor in any position while using a controller.

"that needs to be compensated for by making players move faster and have more health,"

Well it beats the alternative on consoles where the players are made weak, slow and with "heavy use of cover" that is, camping. Camping is a huge problem on console COD, not so much on the likes of TF2. Engagements aren't simply about hiding in a corner, lining up your gun before hand and getting the first shot and the first kill. Console games use cover way too damn much, Gears of War especially literally sticking to cover.

Fast, strong and accurate... or weak, slow and sloppy.

Which would you really prefer?

TF2 engagements are much longer of trading blows, they are rarely over in a single move unless it's an advanced move that can only be pulled off in certain situations. Surprise and flanking are important, but a scrub camping like a claymore can't beat every player every time. Cover is used dynamically with the speed, darting in, out around and even over. It's not about "headglitching" it's about beating the MIND of your opponent, not exploiting inherent imbalances in the game design where you have numerous points of inherent advantage.

it's impossible to move around a gun as fast and precisely as a mouse anyway

No, what is impossible is spinning around at 120rpm for minutes at a time like you can with thumbstick look.

Mouse gives you bursts of speed then a pause to reset the mouse on the pad, just like how you can quickly snap to change your aim with a gun then a moment to realign the body.

But screw realism. We have enough of the real horrors of war in our world already without trying to recapture them as entertainment.

 

[Treblaine]

Why can't we have both? Because KB/Mouse players will shred gamepad users in any FPS.

Shouldn't be a problem as long as team balancing ensures the gamepad players aren't all on one team.

That would be ouch time unless they were like, all heavies and medics.

Gamepad doesn't make competitive play impossible, it just limits options.

 

[Waaghpowa]

Whoever tries to suggest that M+KB, or any conventional type of control input, is "losing" is an idiot. Maybe one of the reasons why some people think it's less relevant is because consoles offer you no choice, it's one of the reasons I hate playing on consoles. Sure there are some special peripherals that add a mouse, but most of them suck or cost too much. Why can't I just use the M+KB I already own? Zombie Christ forbid I should have some choice in what controls I use.

I agree with Walker that there is still, and always will be relevance until direct mental input is invented. The only arguments I ever see or hear is about how 6 year old PC game A has the same players as 3 month old console game B. This is NOT an argument in consoles favour, and you should feel stupid for using it.

Also the whole Bungie not making Destiny for PC because M+KB players are less relevant is stupid. It's like they don't know controllers are usable on PC's. Then again, we are talking about a former Mac game dev.

 

[ron1n]

Why can't we have both? Because KB/Mouse players will shred gamepad users in any FPS.

Shouldn't be a problem as long as team balancing ensures the gamepad players aren't all on one team.

That would be ouch time unless they were like, all heavies and medics.

Gamepad doesn't make competitive play impossible, it just limits options.

Annnnd the m/kb players will still shred the gamepad users...just because they're on different teams doesn't mean the gamepad users won't still be destroyed unfairly. Just because you balance a game between sides (which wouldn't work anyway) doesn't make it fair for the individual.

Would you seriously want to play a game where you have to basically play with a handicap indefinitely?



Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.



As for the first article, that has to be the worst written piece of rubbish I've ever seen. Clearly whoever wrote it has zero clue about the genre, or the gaming scene in general.

Most baffling (aside from the laughable 'data' and the sweeping statements he tries to make) is the fact that neither of the articles make mention of Asia.

PC is still well and truly king in just about every Asian country on the planet (Excluding Japan) and that's quite a number of people. If you truly took in the world wide stats, I'd wager the number of people playing Counterstrike or similar local made FPS games in China and Korea alone, would blow your mind.

 

[Vault101]

'Course, if Microsoft continues to f@$% things up with their insistence that everyone play their way on the PC or they'll take their ball and go home, the PC gaming market might take a fatal beating from the tablet market. Time will tell; we live in "interesting times".

I cant see it...they are completly different markets

 

[Treblaine]

Why can't we have both? Because KB/Mouse players will shred gamepad users in any FPS.

Shouldn't be a problem as long as team balancing ensures the gamepad players aren't all on one team.

That would be ouch time unless they were like, all heavies and medics.

Gamepad doesn't make competitive play impossible, it just limits options.

Annnnd the m/kb players will still shred the gamepad users...just because they're on different teams doesn't mean the gamepad users won't still be destroyed unfairly. Just because you balance a game between sides (which wouldn't work anyway) doesn't make it fair for the individual.

Would you seriously want to play a game where you have to basically play with a handicap indefinitely?

Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.

Yes, some shredding will happen, but that goes both ways if (as I suggest) equal numbers of gamepad users on each team.

The important thing is to make console gamers feel welcome and at least let them join the party, let them have a go with gamepad playing heavy. Yes a couple of those quick mouse shooters will give them a bloody nose and they'll have to seriously step up or that will be the impetus for them to try the mouse and keyboard that is sitting right in front of them. I am of course talking about things like Team Fortress 2 having gamepad support.

I think this is the higher path to take.

Don't give console developers any excuses for not having mouse + keyboard support, when gamepad support is so widespread on PC.

Gamepad support isn't for me... it's a bridge. It's a way to bring those in how haven't been made feel welcome enough to a better way, a better way open to all and more open than it's ever been before. It's a good time.

 

[EeviStev]

Please...just no more stupid arguing over what's better. It isn't a subjective thing, Mouse and Keyboard are far superior for FPS. People might PREFER to use a gamepad, and that's fine. But don't be under any illusions over which is better.

But it is subjective. The game pad is better for me because I never play online multiplayer, and because I grew up using a game pad so I play better using one. Playing an FPS with M+KB makes me feel like I'm playing a fast-paced point-and-click adventure game with one puzzle: shoot the moving things until they stop moving. But don't let my opinion get in the way of The Truth (read: your opinion).

 

[Atmos Duality]

I have friends who look for gamepad support for their PC games just because they're used to it.
*shrugs* Superior practicality or not, Kb+M still doesn't hold sway over experience it seems...though they have been adjusting to games that outright require it (Path of Exile).

Though Sony and M$ really should encourage developers to start allowing for both control types.
It doesn't take much effort to work them in at all, and it increases the design space for their system.

If a game requires it, given enough appeal or quality, I'm pretty sure players will adjust, just as we all adjusted to our first controller.