nasteypenguin said:
orangeban said:
These stereotypes revolve around this idea of men being the ultimate ideal.
I think I understand what you mean by the "ultimate man" archetype, being big and tough and unemotional; but is that not just the easiest way to portray a capable, independent and strong willed character? I personally would assume it is, and it would mean the "burly female stereotype" is not born of sexism but from inherent lack of originality in story telling.
I would suggest that some of the sexism your seeing in games isn't about ignorance or prejudice, it's simply another consequence of poor writing in mainstream games.
You raise an interesting point, and I will answer it. I have no doubt that a lot of the sexism is rooted in laziness, I don't think the whole, say, Bethesda writing team are all sexist woman haters, I just think they're pulling on common tropes. What's interesting is why these tropes exist and the implicit meanings behind the tropes.
And your probably right that strong and unemotional is an easy trope and lazy writing. I hadn't considered this, and you're probably right, this stereotypically male persona is a pretty easy thing to write.
Also, I think your whole evil guy stereotype is a bit flawed; wizards are abundant in protagonists and good guys, even being a standard class in most rpgs. Most of them are portrayed as wise and intellectual people, both very good attributes. Take Gandalf for example; he doesn't seem to fit into this manly ideal, but he's a hugely well received and idealised male character.
Again, fair enough, I didn't look at this point enough. Villains in stories (though not so much in videogames since videogames need a good boss fight), usually human villains, are weak, not very good fighters. The idea is that if they'd face the protagonist like a "real man", then they'd lose. Think of classic villains, The Joker, (usually! Don't kill me Batman lovers!), doesn't fight, if we go back to LotR, then Saruman, he doesn't fight while Gandalf does (in the movies at least, I haven't read the books). An unwillingness to fight, or to get others to do your fighting rather than do it personally, is generally correlated with villainy in stories.
Is it not just a case of trying to portray a women's figure in a physically exceptional way, which is what muscles are well known to do, that the "burly" image appears. It just so happens that men also need muscles to be shown as physically strong as well. Athletic bodies would seem to fall into the sexy category, being one of the most sexualised figures.
Burly doesn't just mean muscly, I admit I chose the category title rather poorly. It's about being tough, brooding, as close to the ULTIMATE MAN stereotype from the men's list. And yes, athletic bodies can be both sexy and burly, it depends on how they are portrayed.
I'm a guy, so I obviously have much less understanding of sexism against females than any woman, but I don't believe the "women needing to be manly to be accepted" concept exists. Indeed, I don't think the term "manly" exists, surely since men and women are of equal capabilities, distinguishing something as unwomanly because men are known to portray it is the very definition of sexism. You seem to be suggesting women need to be portrayed as something utterly different in order to be shown as equal.
I'd say manly most definitely exists, society is really very clear on it. From the very early ages, dolls are for girls, toy swords are for boys, because fighting and swords are manly. Distinguishing things as unwomanly because men are stereotypically known for doing it is the the definition of sexism, but I'm not the first to do it. Rather, I'm commenting on the fact that society has internalised these distinctions between manly and womanly and expresses them in the form of stereotypes.
And our current views of what is manly is not the only way to portray heroes. You mention unemotional, but why can't we have a very emotional hero? Why don't we see more poets or musicians as heroes? Why must they be big and strong, the less strong can still fire guns or command troops or work out puzzles? Why are their very, very few disabled heroes?
