Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[rddj623]

People need to have some tact. It's moments like these where I shy away from wanting to be a part of the "gaming" community. Even if the project is one sided, which I don't think it is from her description, it's not okay to resort to threats and name calling. That sort of thing only makes the male part of the gaming community look like a bunch of neanderthals. Alas, if anything this makes me want to look into the project more. Seems like an interesting and necessary analysis of where we are, where we've come from, and where we're going.

 

[Kahunaburger]

You know, I seriously hope a chunk of the money pledged came as a direct or indirect result of the fame of those dumb bastards' flaming. Just unbelievable.

Almost definitely. Raging at a kickstarter (or similar thing) in a way that publicizes it is essentially giving the kickstarter creator free money. See also the "THIS ARTICLE RUSTLES MY JIMMIES HERE IS A LINK TO IT" thing people do with controversial stuff they're raging about.

 

[drisky]

Frist off I like this girl's work and it came up a lot when I was doing a sexism in advertising art project. Something I also discovered is a staggeringly high amount of anti feminism. With people cheering people on, calling them geniuses for saying feminism is a communist conspiracy. I tried my best to fit in equal parts in my demonstration of restrictive gender roles on both sides. For the most part though when ever I see some one try to talk about the sexism that men face, it has been in a very angry "us verses them" tone, at a much higher level then what they claim to be fighting against, this is just another example.

 

[LiquidGrape]

It's absolutely delicious how her point regarding institutionalised sexism in gaming culture was so wholly proven by the clueless halfwits who went after her.

Very much looking forward to this documentary project. A more informed discourse on matters pertaining sex and gender politics in media is something from which everyone can benefit, so I really can't comprehend why even people decrying the manner in which she's been treated should be so skeptical with regards to the kickstarter.

 

[Phasmal]

Whoa, simmer down Nancy. It just kind of sticks out a bit especially when there's a closeup on the controller. I apparently also find the fingernails a bit gaudy, I guess. Now, as all you've done is mock a side point I made, I don't know which side of the fence you are on in this issue. But, you are making the assertion that the existence of elements of a stereotype does not proclaim acceptance of said stereotype. So what's wrong with video game characters exhibiting them. Princess Peach is not a portrayal of women, she is a portrayal of one fictional woman, named Princess Peach. Why is it an issue that she wears heels (among other things but you get what I mean).

Lol, I did get a bit hyperbolic. Pardon me, I've been bored senseless all day.

The problem isn't that these tropes exist at all, it's that female characters contribution to gaming can be pretty much summed up in one word (`Boing`). Real people are more complicated than that. Hardly anyone really conforms to one stereotype.
Female characters with a bit more depth and variety really is what I'm pushing for. Moviebob's Gender Games episode did a good job of addressing that.

 

[TIMESWORDSMAN]

Breaking News: YouTube Comments still a retched hive of scum and villainy.

 

[Zydrate]

The only thing I have a problem with is that she needs 40,000$ to do a short video series? The one in the article looks fine in itself, I don't think she really needs it.

Beyond that, it's a worthy subject and I'm not sure why there's so much controversy. I've seen this issue discussed before many times already, but there's nothing wrong with another voice.

For the record; I think games are getting better. Liara in Mass Effect for one, is very interesting without being overly sexualized. Alyx from Half-Life is another example.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

I think the problem with the gaming community is the adults assume the kids posting vile things are adults too.
They are 13 year old idiots, a vocal minority. I hope the real adult gaming community has passed the immaturity these youtubers are displaying

To quote the Extra Credits video on harrassment:
` the people at fatuglyorslutty.com have provided us with hours of audio recordings have shown us these are grown men who should know better`.

It's not just `13 year old idiots`, it shouldn't be dismissed as such.
I know a lot of it is younger people, but we need to look at why its so rampant.
I've never been called a slut for reading a book or going to see a film.

OK I forgot that EC episode, I gave it a re-watch.

It's inexcusable for adults to behave this way, regardless of anonymity, Guess it just confirms that there are a lot of asshats in the world and opening up communications like the internet has, increases the amount you encounter them.
I guess the trick is to inform the community and to rely on each other to exclude these people from activity, if people can't behave online they should have that privilege taken away, much the same as we do when people can't behave in public.

I still don't get why they send these horrible messages..... they take so long to type on xbox controllers....jk

 

[Eamar]

I have the good fortune of being friends IRL with plenty of male gamers who don't think this way. By which I mean sure, they enjoy the odd bit of eye candy (as do I, I am by no means saying there's no place for that, please don't get me wrong), but they are also capable of functioning in society without reducing every female to a sex object. They don't run screaming from a game, film or book because they felt alienated by a believable female character, or because there aren't enough boobs.

And you think that's the main problem? Boobs?

That's not what I said, and you know it.

If you honestly think like that then you sir sound either very young, very inexperienced, or just plain misanthropic. Sorry, but that's how it comes across.

You are wrong in all cases. I am realistic. Big difference.

I never said you were any of those things, I said that's how you sound. How you came across to me in that post. That's all.

No no no no no no no, you don't just get to name drop, that's not what I asked for, how do you know if I've played any of those games? You don't.

Because Google is so challenging to use... But fine, if you want to be difficult (pictures spoilered for space):

Spoiler: Alyx Vance. Calm, capable, intelligent, sensibly proportioned and practically dressed(!), generally friendly but capable of real anger, sometimes stern, has a sense of humour. Sometimes fragile and scared, but is able to control herself. Generally a well-rounded, believable human being

Spoiler: Samus Aran. Supersoldier from the future. Famously, her gender was not revealed until the end of the original Metroid game since it has absolutely nothing to do with her ability to do her job. Obviously this is not practical for most games, but the point is gender =/= defining characteristic or personality trait

Spoiler: Kat. A Spartan, like Master Chief. Wears a suit of armour like the male Spartans, adjusted for her shape and size but not sexualised. She's the hacker (has a valuable, non-gender-specific function within the group), versatile, questioning. An example of how the female super-soldier thing could be done without the secrecy involved with original Samus, above

Spoiler: Wynne. An elderly mage who is coming to the end of her life but is still a capable adventurer, often a healer. She expresses weariness more often than the younger characters, but isn't helpless. Depending on how you interact with her, she can take on a mentor role for the protagonist. If you talk to her enough, she will open up about her past, explaining the rash actions and less desirable character traits of her youth and how she learnt from them. She stands by her beliefs and opinions but acknowledges doubt

You'll notice that none of these characters is wholly defined by their gender, and none of them is there as eye candy. They have different personalities, none of them is "the girl." That's what I was getting at.

And since you are trying to paint me as being misanthropic (I'm not sure how I've implied a hate for humantiy, but oooook) I assume these must be considerable beliefs you have, right? So it isn't asking much that you give a physical description and a character description, you know, considering that you are painting me as a boogeyman?

I am doing no such thing, as pointed out above. Please quit playing the victim. I have no problem with you personally, I just disagree with some of the things you've said.

 

[bootz]

I think she should kickstart her own game and game studio portraying women how she deems fit. It would make more of a difference than that documentary.

 

[Haruhi_IS_God]

what annoys me the most about all this is, looking past all the feminist stuff, how much content is there to really present? other than developers saying they present women this way to appeal to a 14-25 male audience, what else is there to discuss?

I also love how she isn't even going to touch the concept of men being portrayed poorly in video games, it's not like every male on the planet is a gruff super soldier who bleeds through his eyes and soaks bullets like a sponge.

 

[DeathQuaker]

I'm curious as to why she needs money to make a Youtube video. Is she banned from using Google or something? The video's going to contain what? Knowledge that we are already aware of?

What she is using the money for is on the Kickstarter page [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games]. If you want those questions answered, I suggest reading the site yourself, but it's basically for several 10-20 minute long videos plus a classroom curriculum, and the costs include common production costs for a professionally made video series, as well as for games and the rights to show the clips of games in the videos (just the rights themselves can be quite costly). (Of course the last clause will have folks believing she's just going to blow the whole wad on games to play, which I seriously doubt.)

The only thing I have a problem with is that she needs 40,000$ to do a short video series? The one in the article looks fine in itself, I don't think she really needs it.

Her goal was $6,000, which is more than reasonable for video production and clip rights costs, etc. for a series of 10-20 minute professionally made videos.

That the backers' donations are now totaling $68,000+ are of the backers' own volition.

Beyond that, it's a worthy subject and I'm not sure why there's so much controversy. I've seen this issue discussed before many times already, but there's nothing wrong with another voice.

I think honestly the controversy comes from some folks feeling like it's a personal attack on themselves/their beliefs (the rightness or wrongness of their beliefs set aside for the moment). It's irrational, but obviously from the quotes provided, they are not rational people.

ETA:

General to the thread: I keep seeing people post "I don't see what difference this is going to make." Given the amount of buzz this has already generated, it's already made a difference. Just making people talk about the issue is important -- it may not seem like it, but the smallest ripples in the water can make waves eventually. This whole project may be one small ripple but if it's generating discussion and getting people to think about the issues, then it's accomplishing something bigger than is given credit for.

 

[ExileNZ]

You know, I seriously hope a chunk of the money pledged came as a direct or indirect result of the fame of those dumb bastards' flaming. Just unbelievable.

Almost definitely. Raging at a kickstarter (or similar thing) in a way that publicizes it is essentially giving the kickstarter creator free money. See also the "THIS ARTICLE RUSTLES MY JIMMIES HERE IS A LINK TO IT" thing people do with controversial stuff they're raging about.

That's why I like MovieBob - not only does he not link to it, he'll actually say "No, seriously, stop typing. Don't even Google it."

 

[Omgsarge]

If she wants to make a documentary about female stereotypes in games (something that certainty is worthy of analysing) then let her. Why does she HAVE to include men in the debate if women are already a big enough topic to fill hours worth of documentary? This backlash really just illustrates how unbelievable defensive so many gamers can be about their hobby. It sickens me. Whether the documentary will be good, informative and well produced will be an entirely different matter. The topic, however, is worth talking about.

If people are so worked up about how men get the short stick in debates about sexism in videogames, make your own documentary and stop with those short-sighted "but most men are also stereotypes" comments. Most female stereotypes are STILL mostly coming from a male perspective, ergo appeal to men. How many male stereotypes are there that get frequently used in games that appeal to females (and no, most females are not turned on by overly muscular men)?

Seriously, people hear feminism and they flip out fearing that women are coming to take away their pee-pees and rule men with an iron fist.

 

[Agente L]

The problem isn't she being a girl. Or she creating a video blog about something connected to video games/sexism on video games.

The problem is asking money for it (when a thousand people do similar for free) and perpetuating the bad image of feminism, since feminism lost its true purpose years ago.People go as far as call them "feminazis"

Sure, females in video game are almost related to somne kind of sexy trope (Femme fatale/Most Common Super Power/Fan service) but's it's not like most male character aren't.Srs, most character, male marines, are atleast one of the following (or all of those together some times): Tall/Bald/"Badass"/Physically Rip, some times going to extreme levels/White or slightly mulatto)

Since people gonna quote me on this saying that I'm a misogynist, let me say a few things.

I'm a egalitarian. I think both women and men deserves the same rights. Neither deserves more rights, with very few exceptions. Womens should get pregnancy leave, for example. Married men should receive a small pregnancy leave, so the couple can fix the initials problems together. Nothing too huge, maybe a couple of days. Much smaller than a woman leave.

Neither man nor woman should have advantage over another. Much of the sexism in our society is perpetuated, not by what the feminists call "male chauvinism". I share many of my opinions about the subject with TJ Kincaid (Amazing Atheist). "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them". At the current age, women actually have MORE rights than man in USA, for example.

Thanks to many different policies, woman get advantage over man in multiple things. They receive less prison time for equivalent time, they have a HUGE default advantage when it comes to child custody or even who should pay children support. Hell, DISCOVERY CHANNEL had a program showing a guy that was IMPRISIONED because he couldn't pay the children support to his ex. Exactly. He COULDN'T pay. She asked for something around 110% of his income as children support. And the judge accepted it! He pretty much sold everything he had to pay for it, and still didn't managed to do so, and then a law abiding citizen ended up in jail.

 

[Khazoth]

In the interest of equal rights for both sexes i'm going to tell you what men are told when we talk about the issue of men being pidgeonholed in popular media.

GTFO

Equal rights, amazing enough, means equality for both parties, it does not mean you get to take the good aspects of being equal and then pick and choose which negative aspects you want to take.

I could name you female characters that aren't sexualized at all, and are taken quite seriously, but why don't you take a moment for me to name me off a couple of gay / transsexual male characters that are not..

*Gay for comedies sake

*Lack any personality other then being gay

*Are a character they stapled gay onto for the sake of generating more media attention. (Green Lantern is a good recent example of this)

 

[Eamar]

3: She's actually sexist herself. Yes, women are shoved into caricatures in video games. As are men. Granted, there's room for both to move around, but you find it in every medium that when content creators try to build product for a mainstream audience they have to use very narrow character tropes. Video games introduced the silent protagonist, but even then there's a very narrow set of expectations. We can call it the Link or Gordon Freeman effect.

Focusing on one set of issues more than another does not make you sexist. Would you call LGBT campaigners "heterophobic" because they don't mention all the problems straight people have?

Straight people have no problems. Literally none.

Unless you count a handful of gay bigots (yes they exist, but their numbers are incredibly small, and they're not noteworthy).

While I get what you're saying, I'm sure some people would disagree. For example, LGBT groups campaigning to help LGBT people in countries where being gay is a crime don't campaign to help straight people in the same countries who, say, have sex before marriage and are punished for it, or are forced into marriage. They almost certainly acknowledge that these things are problems, but it's not the focus of their campaigns. And that's completely understandable.

Similarly, a feminist is going to focus on women's issues. That doesn't mean they deny the existence of or condone men's problems. That's what I was trying to say.

 

[Zydrate]

The only thing I have a problem with is that she needs 40,000$ to do a short video series? The one in the article looks fine in itself, I don't think she really needs it.

Her goal was $6,000, which is more than reasonable for video production and clip rights costs, etc. for a series of 10-20 minute professionally made videos.

That the backers' donations are now totaling $68,000+ are of the backers' own volition.

Beyond that, it's a worthy subject and I'm not sure why there's so much controversy. I've seen this issue discussed before many times already, but there's nothing wrong with another voice.

I think honestly the controversy comes from some folks feeling like it's a personal attack on themselves/their beliefs (the rightness or wrongness of their beliefs set aside for the moment). It's irrational, but obviously from the quotes provided, they are not rational people.

Ah, fair enough.

Hate on YT comments is nothing new, but the sheer volume of it was enough to warrant some articles around the internet, and 300+ replies here. (I've observed that anything on this site that nets over 200 replies means something is a fairly big deal)
That's why I'm a little confused at the volume of hatred.

In related news; I've begun watching some of her videos. They're pretty good, if a bit monotone. (Which makes sense, pretty much every video I've ever seen in a classroom had a similar voice. Which has never been a good thing. Get some emotion, people.)

 

[Eamar]

I could name you female characters that aren't sexualized at all, and are taken quite seriously, but why don't you take a moment for me to name me off a couple of gay / transsexual male characters that are not..

*Gay for comedies sake

*Lack any personality other then being gay

*Are a character they stapled gay onto for the sake of generating more media attention. (Green Lantern is a good recent example of this)

All true, but that's not what's being discussed here. I just posted something to this effect- complaining about an existing issue does not mean you only care about that one issue. As a woman I am not happy with how women are generally portrayed in games. As a gay person I'm also not happy about how LGBT people tend to be represented. As neither a male nor a transgendered person, I am unhappy with how gay/trans males are portrayed. Just as I fall into multiple categories, I am able to acknowledge multiple problems, and I don't think competing to see who has the biggest problems is helpful to anyone.

[small]Why can't we all just be nice to one another?[/small]

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Why should people pay for propaganda? It's ridiculous. If you have extremist views you want to express, don't expect everyone to rush at you baring their cash in anticipation.

Sure give her money just so she can keep screamabout how all men are sexist.
How about if you want games to be more for you,MAKE THEM YOURSELF!

These would be valid points if people didnt already pay a LOT of money to see this series (which we dont know is about how all men are sexist or that its extreme).

So what youre saying is you dont want people paying for something that theyre willing to pay for to enjoy personally by giving money to said person who can provide that service via the use of money.

What exactly do you want to happen? No one can pay to hear something YOU dont want to hear? What if THEY want to hear it.

Also if the roles were reversed and no games were made for you id say the chances of YOU making a game for yourself would be less than zero. How much programming knowlegde do you have?

Also for the record i havnt donated. I dont want to pay to see it. Im not going to call it a "money grab" when.

1. The people paying know what they are getting.
2. The asking price is as much/little as YOU want
3. The maker of the content made no demands and simply asked.

Ive opted not to fund it as im not going to enjoy it. How does its existance affect you?