Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

Clearing the Eye

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JediMB said:
Richardplex said:
Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.
True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

Jiggy said:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?
Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.
I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."
 

JediMB

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Clearing the Eye said:
I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."
Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.
 

Clearing the Eye

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JediMB said:
Clearing the Eye said:
I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `our´ toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."
Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.
Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.
 

JediMB

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Jiggy said:
JediMB said:
Jiggy said:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?
Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `our´ games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.
Hot damn, you just refuted your own point for me. Thanks :)

They already have a audience, why would they go out of their way to obtain a audience they have no guarentee to obtain when that might alienate the one they already have? They don't have a reason.
Actually, I didn't. But you seem to have skipped a few words when you read my post. And half the argument.

First off, the "unnecessarily" is supposed to suggest that men will still play a video game, even if the female characters aren't sexist stereotypes. It's not porn, after all. (And I'm not asking anyone to change Dead or Alive Xtreme, becuase who gives a shit?) They have much to gain with little chance of any loss.

Secondly, there's the "bigger issue" again. About not enforcing harmful stereotypes.
 

CaptainMarvelous

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Yeah, Youtube is full of sexist, racist homophobic morons who comment on any video featuring certain keywords. . . not seeing the story aspect here?

If someone's making a VLog about sexism in videogames then cool, if it's any good I'll likely watch it, I don't think I'm up for paying them for it though.

Personally, I'm still getting over Radical having the balls to have a brother as the main character in a game that wasn't about crime or rapping so y'know. Guess that's something.
 

WanderingFool

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Kahunaburger said:
WanderingFool said:
Kahunaburger said:
WanderingFool said:
Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.
Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin' :D
As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.
Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?
So, if a good video takes money, than with all the money put up for this documentary, it should be damn good then...
 

Paradoxrifts

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MrMan999 said:
Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

No, by all means, lets bring it up. Humanity's capacity for self-conceit amuses me, and I'm served a veritable smorgasbord whenever the feminist choir starts singing a barbershop Capella about how they're all being held back by the white, heterosexual man. Take wages for example. Every ardent feminist sees themselves as the one being victimised, held back from earning what is owed to them due to society's gender inequalities, but you know what?

Not one of them ever admits that they are in fact distinctly average, maybe a little below average or even just a little higher than average. It never really comes up that if you filled a room full of internet-soapbox jumping feminists that just simply by the law of averages, the vast majority of them would not worth what they certainly claim they're worth, in fact some of them are probably worth even less than whatever they already get.

Now I would be lying through my teeth if I said that right now, sometime this week, definitely in my own country, maybe even in my own state a woman is being passed over for a promotion simply because of her gender.

Misogyny does happen. It would be a lie to say it never happens.

But what happens far more often then that to a far greater degree, a lot of very average people regardless of their gender, miss out on career opportunities for no reason more sinister than the sad fact that they either kinda suck or can't go above and beyond the call of duty like their peers who will get the career opportunities that they miss out on.

By the law of averages again, can you guess which group the majority of these feminists will fall into?

[Captcha : real mccoy] Oh yeah captcha, your damn right I am.
 

Naeras

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I read some of those comments, and I'm currently fucking embarrassed to be a penis-wielder. What the FUCK is wrong with these misogynistic shitkids?
Captcha: "brush your teeth". And wash your mouth and grow right up while you're at it.

So in other news, I'm supporting the kickstarter.
 

JediMB

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Clearing the Eye said:
Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.
No, I'm saying that if you want something changed, you have to speak up about it and make it known that there is a demand.

And while no Barbie-branded dolls are aimed at boys, there are plenty of other dolls around for boys. They're just called "figures" or "action figures", since the mentioned sexism has determined that dolls are for girls. The question, I think, is what kind of dolls would you want "made for you"?

EDIT: Oh, hey, 2999 posts. Maybe I should do something special with my next one.
 

NightHawk21

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I'll probably get called out for being some sort of bad person or jerk, but honestly all I feel is indifference. I've seen this before and I've heard all this before. Do I think some developers use women in a very stereotypical fashion, sure, but the same could be said for a lot of males in video games too. All in all I honestly just don't care about the content anymore.

As for the video and the comments. Sure the comments are harsh, but welcome to the internet, you'll find comments like that on just about anything (not saying its right just an unfortunate reality). I don't really understand why she needs the money to do the project though.
 

jklinders

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Topic has already been argued to Oblivion and back. I'll just respond to the OP and leave it at that.

Criticizing the intent of looking for funding for a vlog is OK. Criticizing the content of said vlog is also OK. Stooping to low depths of incredible hatred and bile over this is over the freaking top. I know this is youtube where the lowest of the low like to play but I would have hoped that there were a few less knuckle draggers out there than this.

Having said this, this is the reason why we have the function to block comments. Religion, politics and feminism are just those gasoline laced topics that crazy ass punks love to post on and act all tough on. Best just to deny them a soapbox unless you are prepared to spend a lot of your time countering them.

Some folks are questioning, why even bother making the videos at all. Well, those hateful comments are a pretty good starting point I think. As long as those cavemen walk among us and we allow them to act like that, then there will continue to be a need to address those attitudes.
 

More Fun To Compute

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If this kickstarter is about funding women to help them bring down the highly annoying website tv tropes then I fully support it.
 

LostintheWick

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jklinders said:
Topic has already been argued to Oblivion and back. I'll just respond to the OP and leave it at that.

Criticizing the intent of looking for funding for a vlog is OK. Criticizing the content of said vlog is also OK. Stooping to low depths of incredible hatred and bile over this is over the freaking top. I know this is youtube where the lowest of the low like to play but I would have hoped that there were a few less knuckle draggers out there than this.

Having said this, this is the reason why we have the function to block comments. Religion, politics and feminism are just those gasoline laced topics that crazy ass punks love to post on and act all tough on. Best just to deny them a soapbox unless you are prepared to spend a lot of your time countering them.

Some folks are questioning, why even bother making the videos at all. Well, those hateful comments are a pretty good starting point I think. As long as those cavemen walk among us and we allow them to act like that, then there will continue to be a need to address those attitudes.
Agreed. These guys are throw backs. It's too bad we can't actually, just, throw them back. And... like... into a volcano or something. These men/boys have small junk and a huge fear of women.
 

John Funk

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Mylinkay Asdara said:
Buretsu said:
Mylinkay Asdara said:
This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes.
But there's a counter. Any male who doesn't fit these stereotypes is marginalized. The main character must be those things, but if a male isn't one of them, they're portrayed negatively. They're the wacky comedy relief, or the camp gay, or both at the same time. Or even the villain. How many older males in video games exist to be nothing but a father/surrogate father to the main character, and are either killed off, or made into the villain of the game?

We complain about females being shallow, one-note, token characters, and are praised, but try to bring up the same complain about males, and no, no, we have to focus on the women.

They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here).
There's this thing called "benevolent sexism". It's hardly benevolent, if you ask me, but it's praising conformation to sterotypes and punishing deviation. And it gets mostly ignored. Why? Because video games tended to be thought of as 'male-dominated' so people think the only counter is to start using the same standards we judge males on for females, to bring them up to the same level.

What we need isn't more bad-ass action girls, but a game market where strength AND weakness are both valued. But weakness is only ever presented as something to be overcome, the meek character needs to toughen up. We don't need a female Duke Nukem, we need to have fewer Duke Nukems in the world altogether.
Overall, I agree with you. However, it is a little bit like saying we shouldn't worry about who's fighting wars right now, what we really need is some global peace all around, yeah, totally. No one can disagree with the sentiment of such a statement, but it doesn't really address any of the problem and it actually skims over the problem by saying the answer is a perfect solution that doesn't exist and can't come into reality until the problem is dealt with piecemeal.

There are other problems of generalization and stereotyping in games (and other entertainment media). There are a series of complexities to be handled regarding each facet of those individual issues. We are never going to have an instant solution to all of them at once, however, and saying that one problem should not be brought into the open because all of the problems can't be put in the light at the same time is the path to never solving anything at all.

This is what becomes frustrating about this topic for me. I'm constantly reading that the problem of how women are portrayed in video games can't or shouldn't be addressed until every problem of representation is being also addressed and that just is impossible. It is the same thing as saying that it will never be dealt with, but in an evasive way that shuts down any argument to the contrary.

I would completely support a movement by male gamers to make their representation in games more realistic - without demanding my gender be treated first or alongside it, but I detest the fact that my gender's redress of their representation has to wait until all other concerns are also being dealt with. We aren't asking to be special. We aren't asking other causes to wait on us. Some of us are just trying to address a problem we see, and because the males aren't proactive enough to have their own issue addressed we seem more zealous by comparison and have to be somehow trying to dominate because of that. It's ridiculous. Start a movement if you care, but don't impede a movement for something else because your problem doesn't have one yet.
I just wanted to say that this post was perhaps a perfect way of phrasing something I was wrestling how to get across myself. Well done :)
 

4173

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That seems like a lot of money (both 6k and 48k) but it isn't mine so whatever.


Unsurprising on the part of YouTube commentators, but "ovendodger" did make me laugh out loud.