Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde
- Thread starter The Wooster
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It doesn't make men "victims," considering not all (if any) men are sex robots who can't help but buy games that promise big-breasted women who are largely one-dimensional.Spearmaster said:
Plus there wouldn't be anything to exploit if the men weren't predisposed to accepting (or actively desiring) material that is sexist/etc, considering men who don't like sexism aren't the ones buying these games or being exploited by developers who make them.
You're making it sound like video games are training men to be sexist and therefore men are the real victims of the situation. Video games can't train men (or women) to be anything unless they are predisposed to be that already (video games don't make people violent unless they had a violent streak to begin with; video games can't make people sexist unless they already assumed the stereotypes perpetuated in the games were true, etc).
But here's the thing: those big-muscled men aren't there for women (or men) to oogle at, and they typically have important contributions to the plot or the action. They aren't objectifying men, but providing the player (who is typically presumed to be a man) with a shell through which he can enact his own power fantasy. Considering the man probably wouldn't be playing the game if he didn't think what the character was doing was cool in some way, it's fair to say that by pretending to be this character, the man can derive some satisfaction (at least from the character's actions, if not from the fact that he himself wishes he COULD have those big muscles, etc).
When women are dressed like strippers and sluts and/or have ridiculous proportions, it's generally obvious that it's not done for the purpose of allowing women to have their own power fantasy (or comparable experience). I think it's safe to assume few women gamers dream of dressing like sluts, or being the inconsequential sidekick for the guys who go out and actually do the cool stuff. The women are typically (not always, obviously, but typically) there for the purpose of pleasing those guys who like oogling at scantily-clad women, or for the purpose of sticking a love interest into the plot in the case of lazy script-writing, etc.
In other words, neither sex is necessarily depicted in a realistic way, but the problem is women are generally depicted in a manner meant to please men sexually, and men are generally depicted in a manner meant to please men who want to slip into an idealized version of themselves. In order for depictions of men to be equally sexist, you'd basically have to create the same kind of soft-core porn effect for women (i.e., attractive men with six-pack abs who never wear shirts and are just there for the women gamers to stare at and/or who are just there as an accessory to a female lead who actually gets to do all the cool stuff or act like a real person).
Awesome.JerrytheBullfrog said:
So its more the way women aren't realistically portrayed then?...and the fact that its used to target men is because men that respond to it positively are already sexist?...so if men that respond positively are already sexist and men that don't wont become sexist because of it then if it doesn't change men how does it affect women different?minuialear said:
Is it that there are no proper role models for women in games?
There aren't for men either so it then must be that there are just not any/enough women in major roles in games that aren't of the submissive/hooker archtype?
It cant be gender roles because both sexes are stereotyped horribly.
I can see how its a stereotype problem, I do see it as a problem (girls need games to), but how is it an equal rights for women issue? and how does it hurt women if its not changed?
In my original post I also said
"Also what can actually be done about it other than a direct boycott or asking them nice to stop, even the most impressive speech or rant about a problem without a viable solution is just whining right?"
it was the only part that has not got any response.
How can we fix it?
Wait.Therumancer said:
I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.
Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.
Can't play them on World of Warcraft. Can't play them on Rock Band. Heck, I think the only place I can play girls without big boobs is when the characters are childlike or cartoony (and sometimes even the kids are sexed up, see e.g. 15-year-old Rikku from Final Fantasy X).
But let's get back to your argument:
So, when someone says something you don't like, or engages in a study attempting to prove a position you disagree with, the proper response is to gag them? What the hell, man?Therumancer said:
Let's try this: All the people in the world get to say things, and some of them will be right and a lot of them will be wrong. And you can choose which ones you listen to. But you don't have any right to go around deciding which ones OTHER PEOPLE get to listen to. Let alone deciding which ones other people give their money to.
I mean, clearly enough people disagree with your premise (they think this issue exists and is worth discussing) that they managed to raise all the money she needed in, what, 24 hours?
You ever hear the quote "I may disagree with what you're saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" Or here's one I read the other day: "We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes."
People are free to differ. No one should be praising people for shutting them up.
It is somewhat like that, only more applying to the whole curiculum than a single class. It would be narrow-minded if it happened and I'm sure the creator has more than one priority in life but I just felt it apt to state perhaps a more well-formed version of what all of these... violent rapists who inhabit the YouTube comments section were trying to say.Hollyday said:
I honestly can't tell if they're being serious, on that note! Hell, I wouldn't put it past 4 Chan or some community like that to have a little troll at someone's expense... maybe they're even generating publicity? Who can say?
I indeed do not promote ignorance when it comes to subjects such as sexism, I merely promote caution. It is entirely possible to fall into the trap of favouring one side or the other, a desire to see something or an expectation causing false-negative and false-positives in research, etc, etc.
I actually think she's fairly correct, but again I think by looking at the industry, the priorities are wrong. As I said in the "Gamers make poor feminists"-thread...gamers make poor feminists! In general.
The industry reacts to the needs of the market, and the consumers obviously wants this kind of crap. It appears to be in -slight- decline, as there relativly recently has been a growth in popularity for games that treat women as something other then sex objects, but the problem remains with the GAMERS themselves, and not neccecerily with the gaming companies. Not that that's always the case, mind you.
Fortunetly, the standard gamer isnt what they used to be 20 years ago. Then it was practicly 99% dudes. Today, female gamers make up 42% of the gamerbase in America. I dont have numbers for the rest of the world but its probably higher then you'd think. One can only hope that this shift will result in a greater change in the video games market.
Despite this great shift in the numbers female-male gamers, harassment against female gamers is a BIG problem, and a very common occurance. Why? Im guessing the internetz has something to do with it, and the fact that most gamers are still hormon-riddled teenagers that sometimes just say the most stupid things without really meaning it. Its probably the case with many of those youtube comments.
This is not a problem that's going to go away easily, as gender roles has existed deep in the human mind for millenia, and its not easy for them to change. But I give credit to this woman for at least giving it a shot, because its definetly not going to change if people dont try.
The industry reacts to the needs of the market, and the consumers obviously wants this kind of crap. It appears to be in -slight- decline, as there relativly recently has been a growth in popularity for games that treat women as something other then sex objects, but the problem remains with the GAMERS themselves, and not neccecerily with the gaming companies. Not that that's always the case, mind you.
Fortunetly, the standard gamer isnt what they used to be 20 years ago. Then it was practicly 99% dudes. Today, female gamers make up 42% of the gamerbase in America. I dont have numbers for the rest of the world but its probably higher then you'd think. One can only hope that this shift will result in a greater change in the video games market.
Despite this great shift in the numbers female-male gamers, harassment against female gamers is a BIG problem, and a very common occurance. Why? Im guessing the internetz has something to do with it, and the fact that most gamers are still hormon-riddled teenagers that sometimes just say the most stupid things without really meaning it. Its probably the case with many of those youtube comments.
This is not a problem that's going to go away easily, as gender roles has existed deep in the human mind for millenia, and its not easy for them to change. But I give credit to this woman for at least giving it a shot, because its definetly not going to change if people dont try.
I don't want to take part in the debate but really why does she need tens of thousands of dollars to make 6 videos?
I don't understand how this kickstarter thing works. What if she doesn't do what she promised or gets more donations than needed, she gets to keep the money?
I don't understand how this kickstarter thing works. What if she doesn't do what she promised or gets more donations than needed, she gets to keep the money?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExCdOImmVA
My thoughts on the matter.
And yes, she probably keep the extra money in her pocket instead of doing something that could help someone who knight need like battered housewives, Children in need, something like that.
My thoughts on the matter.
And yes, she probably keep the extra money in her pocket instead of doing something that could help someone who knight need like battered housewives, Children in need, something like that.
I'm really tired, so apologies in advance if I ramble a bit.
If, however, you did the opposite and gave a lot of positive examples, such people would be a lot less capable of subconsciously justifying their bias. If women are always opening jars on TV, then suddenly it doesn't make as much sense to assume that all women can't open jars, because so many writers/producers/etc don't seem to have shared that experience. They'd have to work at justifying the stereotype to continue believing that stereotype, and the lazy thinkers aren't going to do that.
In the instance of scantily-clad women, the underlying assumption to be validated is typically "women are here for my entertainment" or something of the like. Guys not predisposed to this type of thinking can play such games without moving towards that mindset; sexist guys will already be proclaiming that mindset on the streets. Those in the middle may think to some small degree that it's true, but they may not fully adhere to that line of thinking yet. But constant exposure to the stereotype they have an inkling of faith in allows them to justify having said thoughts (i.e., whereas the non-sexist guy may play the game and think "This is not okay," the guy in the middle may think "Well everything I see indicates that my gut is right, so maybe it's okay that I make this assumption"). If, however, gender roles were reversed in most games and women weren't usually the ones put in games to look pretty, the guy in the middle no longer has a reason to validate that way of thinking.
The problem with having a handful of examples of good female characters amidst a sea of bad ones, is that if the person is first exposed to the bad examples, then they are used to inform him of what women should be like, which typically makes subsequent good examples seem strange to him. For example, if a guy's seen a bunch of window-dressing women in various games and has already come to the conclusion that women are supposed to be like that, then making one game with a good female character doesn't just fix everything. He's more likely to think, "Wait, but a woman isn't supposed to act like this..." than he is to think "Oh wait, now I should re-examine my thoughts on women." Quantity is as important as quality in this issue.
(This also plays into validating people's assumptions that women can't do "cool" things that men can do, that women are weak and need saving, etc.)
Not to mention, when the media only focuses on the negative, it gives those with a mind to be biased an excuse to remain so. Like with race: a lot of people felt (and clearly still feel) justified in being afraid of blacks and latinos purely on the basis that they saw more of them on shows like Cops, because the media disproportionately reports on crimes that they commit compared to crimes that other races may commit, etc. And once we make it easy for said people to justify their bias, things go downhill for the demographic they're biased against.
And while people often claim you can't change games because a million people will still go out and buy it--just because your message may not have the biggest following, doesn't mean you shouldn't stick by that message. Most people in the country won't back a bill for same-sex marriage, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to stay active in getting the word out about marriage equality and boycotting or contacting groups who seek to perpetuate misinformation.
Not quite, because again, men aren't always portrayed realistically, either; but the difference is, men aren't portrayed realistically because they're portrayed in a manner that is supposed to please their desire to role-play as a rough, chisled man with weapons who gets to do all these cool things in the game. Women usually aren't portrayed unrealistically because they're pleasing some desire for anyone to play through that perspective; it's typically because the slutty clothes and skimpier personality appeals to those (assumed to be men) who need/want women as dressing for the power fantasy described above. I.e., they're not there for the purpose of providing anything to the experience other than to fulfill sexual desires or adhere to various other female stereotypes in order to have the narrative "make sense" to the demographic it's being directed towards (i.e., gaming teens, which seem to have a lot of trouble staying on the right side of the whole sexism issue). In other words, the difference is that you're rarely going to just see the unrealistic men sprinkled into the game for a purpose as shallow as being eye-candy for the gamers. Now, whether the unrealistic women are actually attractive and/or the chisled men actually help with the power fantasy is of course subjective and debatable, but the reasons why they are made that way are arguably more important than whether they actually achieve that goal.Spearmaster said:
People can change because people don't always start out as being completely not sexist or completely sexist. Most are in a grey area where they have assumptions about guys and girls but haven't necessarily gotten to the point where they'll say with confidence that those stereotypes are true (for example, they may subconsciously doubt that straight guys can like pink or that girls can open jars, but this hasn't become an absolute yet). If such people are lazy thinkers (which many are) and only (or mostly) given negative examples of how girls/guys act, these examples start to validate their own negative positions, and cause them to have the confidence to move into full-blown sexism. Using the examples above, if every show on television shows women going to their boyfriends with jars to open, this may start to validate the perception the person has on women regarding jars, simply because being exposed to the same stereotype over and over again, even in media, makes it that much easier to think that this is a common occurrence and therefore is likely generic enough to the demographic as a whole.
If, however, you did the opposite and gave a lot of positive examples, such people would be a lot less capable of subconsciously justifying their bias. If women are always opening jars on TV, then suddenly it doesn't make as much sense to assume that all women can't open jars, because so many writers/producers/etc don't seem to have shared that experience. They'd have to work at justifying the stereotype to continue believing that stereotype, and the lazy thinkers aren't going to do that.
In the instance of scantily-clad women, the underlying assumption to be validated is typically "women are here for my entertainment" or something of the like. Guys not predisposed to this type of thinking can play such games without moving towards that mindset; sexist guys will already be proclaiming that mindset on the streets. Those in the middle may think to some small degree that it's true, but they may not fully adhere to that line of thinking yet. But constant exposure to the stereotype they have an inkling of faith in allows them to justify having said thoughts (i.e., whereas the non-sexist guy may play the game and think "This is not okay," the guy in the middle may think "Well everything I see indicates that my gut is right, so maybe it's okay that I make this assumption"). If, however, gender roles were reversed in most games and women weren't usually the ones put in games to look pretty, the guy in the middle no longer has a reason to validate that way of thinking.
The problem with having a handful of examples of good female characters amidst a sea of bad ones, is that if the person is first exposed to the bad examples, then they are used to inform him of what women should be like, which typically makes subsequent good examples seem strange to him. For example, if a guy's seen a bunch of window-dressing women in various games and has already come to the conclusion that women are supposed to be like that, then making one game with a good female character doesn't just fix everything. He's more likely to think, "Wait, but a woman isn't supposed to act like this..." than he is to think "Oh wait, now I should re-examine my thoughts on women." Quantity is as important as quality in this issue.
There are role models for women, but they are few in number (and that is significant; see above). While Batman and Kratos aren't necessarily "good" role models, they at least serve as examples of people gamers would love to be--lots of us wish we had the strength and badassery to kill gods or beat up criminals in a costume, even if these aren't things we should actually aspire to. How many of us wish we were princesses who always got kidnapped, or airheaded women who dress and move like sluts, or women who are getting assaulted (physically or sexually) in a manner we can't really prevent, almost every time we're in a playable scene?
(This also plays into validating people's assumptions that women can't do "cool" things that men can do, that women are weak and need saving, etc.)
Well first off it hurts girls to not be able to see an abundance of strong role models in media. Halloween is always best at bringing this out: if guys have cool movie characters like Batman and Captain America (i.e., heroes who use their strength to save people) to dress up as, and girls only have Disney princesses (most of which depend largely on a male character to save them from their situation), what kind of message is this sending to them? If the only women they can play as in games are of that "need to be saved" or "only here to be attractive" variety, what message is that sending them? What does that tell them regarding what they can aspire to, etc?
Not to mention, when the media only focuses on the negative, it gives those with a mind to be biased an excuse to remain so. Like with race: a lot of people felt (and clearly still feel) justified in being afraid of blacks and latinos purely on the basis that they saw more of them on shows like Cops, because the media disproportionately reports on crimes that they commit compared to crimes that other races may commit, etc. And once we make it easy for said people to justify their bias, things go downhill for the demographic they're biased against.
The easiest solution is to get writers/producers to think about why many of them put women in games, and alter that mindset and the way they portray them. Problem is, that's been done many times over already, and writers are often too lazy to do it. So the best solution currently is to make independent games that have good characters in general and doesn't play into the same tropes as AAA games. And then to support the hell out these games, to make sure writers of those AAA games take note and realize that if they don't change their ways, they're going to be out of a job. Pressure is about the only recourse we have, but if we don't apply it, literally nothing's going to get solved.
And while people often claim you can't change games because a million people will still go out and buy it--just because your message may not have the biggest following, doesn't mean you shouldn't stick by that message. Most people in the country won't back a bill for same-sex marriage, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to stay active in getting the word out about marriage equality and boycotting or contacting groups who seek to perpetuate misinformation.
To be fair, she was only asking for $6k. She got $159k because, well, irony. [footnote]When this video went up, people voiced their displeasure by resorting to insults. Anita Sarkeesian, in response, posted screenshots of said insults to her website. This was then picked up by larger feminsit sites who then urged people to donated to the project.[/footnote]Lumber Barber said:
Alyx VanceKilyle said:
Any female character from New Vegas, unmodded.
Any female character in mount and blade, the whole series.
World of Warcraft does have some race females without stonking great knockers. The undead, the blood elves, the trolls. Although all of them are willowy hotties or decomposing, so not exempt from unrealistic body depiction there.
Dragon's dogma.
Judith Mossman.
I realise that most of these are not playable, but not every character in games is a stacked hottie with a waist that can only be achieved with a genetic jackpot and a corset.
Oh, and while you're there, make a list of all the male characters that aren't built like brick shithouses, and of those who aren't, find ones where their size isn't treated as a plot point. So no fat guys who's job it is to be fat comic relief, no skinny guys who by virtue of being thin have to hang back and be pansies.
I asked the same thing. You don't need thousands of dollars to get recording equipment. Plus, she made this video, didn't she? She's already got recording equipment. What more does she need? And like you said, won't she get to keep the money raised? I don't care how "good" or "beneficial" these videos are. You're (Referring to her) taking advantage of people who don't know how Kickstarter works.AWAR said:
People gave her the money of their own volition and that's her fault, is it?Buretsu said:
Complain if she makes another Kickstarter in 6 months' time asking for another 6k, not now just because OTHER PEOPLE have done something.
- Asks for $6kLumber Barber said:
- Gets $158k
- Final judgement on project? Nobody cares about it
Of course. Because there is nothing more predictable and malleable than the psychotic dysfunctional internet. She obviously engineered the entire situation. Not only did she have the skills to hack into hundreds of youtube accounts and create an amazing program that posted random misogynist comments to her account, she also spent years in deep cover, providing media criticism, running workshops and appearing at gaming convention, all so she could pull something like this. It's all so clear to me now [/sarcasm}Buretsu said:
I suppose the one good thing that has come from all these attacks is the level of attention it's receiving from the video game community. I, for one, am definitely going to be watching these videos with great interest.