Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[Fusioncode9]

Great! Now this chick gets 150,000$ to put in her pocket. She didn't need a kickstarter to do a few internet videos about women in video games. Extra Credits does that kind of stuff for free every week. God I'm starting to hate kickstarter.

 

[PurePareidolia]

Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with it because that's what's being argued in this instance.

Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).

I would also throw money at Kickstarter for that game. Sounds fun.
Like I said though I'm not talking about "certain stories", just giving equal character treatment to characters of all genders which is perfectly OK. I think "what would be a female power fantasy" is only kind of a tangential question - plenty of male power fantasy characters are just one dimensional stereotypes based on what they do - an actual character is more than just their role so naturally if the character isn't described but the role is, it's probably going to be a simplistic trope. Not that it's a bad question, but that's probably why its difficult to get a satisfactory answer.

Also Medea? Seriously? She was a child-sibling-killing witch whose only motivation was to get in Jason's pants, and then he cheated on her. Powerful character (and one I like personally), but all she did was betray her family in ways that stopped being sympathetic around the time "we can get away if they're having a funeral for my kid brother" seemed like a good idea.

There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.

Wow, I did not know that.

This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."

How would you do a video designed to highlight sexist tropes?

However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.

This is true, but I wasn't talking abut them specifically.

Also the ugly elves thing is the fact that Bethesda can't do nice looking people at the best of times.

 

[Nadhammer]

Two things:

1: I hate militant feminism. I hope that this project fizzles.

2: She's pretty cute.

 

[RaikuFA]

Great! Now this chick gets 150,000$ to put in her pocket. She didn't need a kickstarter to do a few internet videos about women in video games. Extra Credits does that kind of stuff for free every week. God I'm starting to hate kickstarter.

Its not kickstarters fault, its just a tool used to help out people.

 

[marche45]

1: I hate militant feminism. I hope that this project fizzles.

She is not militant,closer to brutally honest.
Though we don't agree on suckerpunch.

 

[Spearmaster]

So what we really need is more women to get involved in the creation of games so they can create games/characters that would be a more positive role model for women and a more proper representation of women for men.

Yeah, although the problem I see with that (aside from the us v them problem you mention below, which is definitely an issue I also see happening) is that it takes the pressure off of (usually male, white, heterosexual) writers/designers/etc to make characters from minority demographics, such as women and ethnic minorities, that aren't caricatures of negative stereotypes. It's basically saying "Well, if you want characters that aren't negative stereotypes, you better make them yourselves; we're going to continue using the stereotypes in the meantime."

One excuse I keep hearing is that men can't write good female characters because they aren't female themselves. But if Joss Whedon can do it (Buffy, Echo, etc), and if the writers of Half Life 2 could do it (Alyx Vance), and if the Metroid (original; not Other M) could do it with Samus, and if dozens of other male writers or male-dominated writing staffs could do the same for various other good female characters, I see that as a cop-out. They could do it, if they were good writers. So maybe there's where we should start.

I think more women (and men) need to support games with a more proper view of women and be vocal about it. Tell developers and publishers "this is what we want and we will support more like it". not try to tear down and attack games that don't because that creates a negative backlash that leaves no room for a proper dialog because it baits trolls and radicals and the common fool, which is what her video and her promotion of seems to be doing, weather that was her intention or not I cant say for sure but if it was not she did not think it through very well.

That's true; playing Devil's Advocate though, by focusing only on the good examples and not criticizing the bad, a lot of people who don't understand that there's a problem with most other games see that as just further proof that games are fine. Similar to how talking about how awesome it is that Obama is half-black and president has allowed people to assume that black people are now completely equal to other races in society, because there's a positive example of a black guy (using the one-drop rule, at least) becoming president. The bad needs to be criticized so that people are reminded that the bad still exists, and can discuss why it's bad and how future things could become less bad.

but putting pressure on men to create female characters to women's standards creates even more of a divide than women creating something for them selves.
Is not the point of feminism equal rights? Where women have an equal right to create female characters as they see fit just like men do. Not to use it as a sword which to point at men and force a woman's ideals into their creative process.

On the examples of men writing female characters...well saying that someone else "could" and did do something is not a reason why everyone else in the field "should have to" do something.
Also no, a man "cant" know how women idealize themselves because they are not a woman they can only try and understand, most of the time its not a sexist view of women from creators but a misunderstood one. Some women in society do empower themselves using large breasts, skimpy clothing and sex appeal.
Writing is an art form and when you start forcing the hand of artist to create something someone else likes better or feels more comfortable with you have just destroyed artistic creativity.

I think many people know there is a problem with the way women are portrayed in video games or at least that many women are not happy with it but publishers look mainly at the bottom line and without support and a group telling them why they support a game with a proper female character/s they will assume that it just did well and not care either way but if they felt a game sold more because of support from women they might actually look at the issue as a selling point and find a way to tap into that market.

 

[Belated]

This post is going to be a bit sloppy, because I've restated this argument several times before and I'm tired and need to go to bed. Sorry about that:

"Sexy" and "sexist" are not the same thing. Just because female characters in games are sexy, doesn't mean they're "reinforcing" sexism. The characters just HAPPEN to be sexy. It wouldn't be offensive if the men were sexy and the women were all strong. The only thing offensive about women in games being sexy is that MOST games happen to treat women like that. And these tropes certainly aren't "harmful". I'm not against what she's doing, but I hate how people like her call stuff like that "harmful". Fiction does not magically rub fairy dust in your eyes to turn you into a misogynist. It's not the content that matters, it's the context in which it's presented.

In other words, it may be sexist if the game means to imply that women are SUPPOSED to be scantily-clad at all times. But if a game merely contains women who just HAPPEN to be scantily-clad, that's not automatically sexist, and it's definitely not "harmful."

For example, the "damsel in distress" trope. Yes, it's sexist that it's always "saving the princess", never "saving the prince". But one particular princess who needs saving is not automatically sexist. It is physically possible to kidnap a woman, thereby putting her in a state of distress. Therefore, the "damsel in distress" trope is not sexist. It's just a possible scenario. It's also possible to kidnap a guy, thus putting him in a state of distress. It's not sexist to merely have a woman who's in distress. The sexism exists in the fact that this is the most common scenario, not in the scenario itself. In other words, simply HAVING a "damsel in distress" doesn't automatically make your game sexist. You just HAPPENED to make it a woman who needs saving. To say that "damsel in distress" is sexist is to imply that it's ONLY acceptable for a man to be in distress.

Now, sexiness. Yes, women are often in revealing outfits when it comes to games. Is this sexist? No. Not in and of itself. Who are we to judge what a person should or shouldn't wear? How much skin is or isn't decent? You need to realize, the standards we apply to clothing and sexuality are completely arbitrary. Yes, it's true that the revealing outfit is there to attract horny male gamers. But that isn't wrong. Exploring your sexuality through fantasy isn't wrong. Dare I say it's even healthy to fantasize. The sexism comes in with the fact that there aren't more scantily-clad men in games. Sure the ladies get Dante. In Tekken there's Kazuya. In Soul Calibur... I dunno, do chicks dig Mitsurugi? Anyway, there are a few attractive men in games, but not nearly as many as there are attractive women. THAT'S the sexism. Not the sexiness itself, but the imbalance of it. Therefore, the solution is definitely not to remove existing female tropes from games. Because as we've established, the trope itself is not sexist, just the context. There are solutions though: Make more games with sexy men, and make more games that break female stereotypes.

I support this lady's efforts in her videos. However, I felt the need to do a little damage control because she seems to be operating under the misconception that it's automatically sexist to have a female character in a game who JUST HAPPENS to be weak, or JUST HAPPENS to be sexy. To say that these things are sexist is to imply that all women absolutely must be strong, or absolutely cannot be attractive at all. But that's even less realistic. Because some women ARE weak, and some women ARE attractive. Just like some men are weak and some men are attractive.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

Just popping in to say that none of this surprises me. Gabe's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory is exactly the reason this happens.

 

[Schadrach]

Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with it because that's what's being argued in this instance.

There's a problem with that. The same people who push the other stuff that some people find objectionable fall back on the definition that no one does if anyone disagrees with them, precisely because virtually everyone agrees with it. Essentially that if you don't agree with horrible idea X, then you clearly don't believe men and women are, or even remotely should be equal.

Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).

I would also throw money at Kickstarter for that game. Sounds fun.
Like I said though I'm not talking about "certain stories", just giving equal character treatment to characters of all genders which is perfectly OK. I think "what would be a female power fantasy" is only kind of a tangential question - plenty of male power fantasy characters are just one dimensional stereotypes based on what they do - an actual character is more than just their role so naturally if the character isn't described but the role is, it's probably going to be a simplistic trope. Not that it's a bad question, but that's probably why its difficult to get a satisfactory answer.

Also Medea? Seriously? She was a child-sibling-killing witch whose only motivation was to get in Jason's pants, and then he cheated on her. Powerful character (and one I like personally), but all she did was betray her family in ways that stopped being sympathetic around the time "we can get away if they're having a funeral for my kid brother" seemed like a good idea.

Honestly, I think there would have been less backlash from a "we want to make a game with a strong female character as an example of how strong female characters can be written" Kickstarter than the "I want thousands of dollars to make a handful of YouTube videos with equipment I already have which, if history is any indication are going to take the form of 'Look at this trope! NO! BAD! SEXIST! How to do it right? *crickets chirping*'."

So, is the argument that female characters need more/better writing than male ones, or else it's sexist? Or that game characters need more/better writing in general, in which case making it about sexism is just drawing attention away from the real problem (in order to attract trolls and funding from people who will pour money on feminist playing cards if given the opportunity)? Because you can't just place a female character in a typically male role because that's one of the very tropes Anita is arguing against, the "man with boobs" trope. So, clearly, for her to feel a female character is not innately sexist, it has to be built to some other standard, and a drastically different character archetype is going to have different narratives built around it, in part because the more common narratives don't fit as well.

And yes, Medea was one of their first examples. Not exactly a great role model, but that was where the thread went early on.

There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.

Wow, I did not know that.

An example from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkVkz4iL4SE

I strongly suspect that when Anita created those stickers for her Kickstarter that have the potential to make Nintendo send her a nasty letter (which would in turn be proof of misogyny in the gaming community) that a game in which Peach saves the day through the power of mood swings was not what she had in mind, though. Strangely enough, I believe this version of Peach is in her intro video, isn't it?

This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."

How would you do a video designed to highlight sexist tropes?

So very many people in this thread have implied that they expect more than that. Hell, I'd be happy to see some positive advice. It's a trend I've noticed with advice from "feminist sources" (defined here as any source that primarily discusses feminism or strongly aligns their views and positions with feminism -- so places like Shakesville and Feministing count, as do RadicalHub, NSWATM, and Skepchick for a few more examples), they always seem to give negative advice (the variety describing what not to do) without ever suggesting alternative behavior. I would *love* to see an example in which there was a "and here is how to do this in a not sexist/rapey/misogynist way." This complaint is not only limited to media criticism either, it seems to be a general trend.

However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.

This is true, but I wasn't talking abut them specifically.

It's not the only example of that behavior. In fact, most of the cases of "feminists vs gamers" have generally involved one of those campaigns. This Kickstarter is one of the few exceptions.

Also the ugly elves thing is the fact that Bethesda can't do nice looking people at the best of times.

Their elves are always especially ugly though. That TES elves are always especially ugly and are so in the same general ways (abnormally long, angular faces, for example) makes me think it's a design choice. As opposed to Khajiit or Argonians who are all over the place across the series.

 

[Trekkie]

look up the agent orange files:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/feminism/feminisms-underbelly-the-agent-orange-files/

and The Femathiest:

http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html

and tell me there isn't discrimination against men.

 

[Trekkie]

exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?


Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

WOW, okay, read it again because i don't think the phrase false accusation means what you think it mean. a false accusation of rape is when someone lies about someone raping them when that rape didn't actually happen.

and i stick by my last comment, if women didn't make a false accusation of rape, then the time and money wasted on investigating that lie could be used to solve an actual crime like.... oh lets say.... a rape that actually happened.

 

[Trekkie]

plus what dose the human-doing message do for men besides tell us were nothing but an appliance to be used to extract resources?

Personally I'd rather be an 'appliance', who is able to show their worth through intelligence, strength, will power, loyalty (and general ability to hold down a job) than as a doll. Can you imagine feeling like your entire self worth comes from an accident of genetics? IT SUCKS! I think I have a pretty healthy self-image but even I get worried when I put on a little bit of weight. Women who treat men like walking talking wallets disgust me, but you can't compare men's attraction coming from actions to women's attraction coming from looks. In this sense men are active and in charge of their destinies and women are completely passive and dependent on genetics/possible future plastic surgery.

For a bit of a laugh, check out a glimpse of what it would be like if men were sexualised in the same way as women are all the time:

really because I cant think of one game where the female chars arent seen as strong and independent and who don't need help from anyone.

....... now that was just silly, wasn't it

Some may be strong. Some may even be independent. But good god are they cliched. You did name some characters I really like - Ashley Williams and Liara T'Soni for example, but for every Ashley there are 3 Bayonettas, Ivys, troops of DOA girls and a coachload of sexy demon villainesses (oh, and a Miranda, EDI, Samara and Morinth. Though actually I do really like Mass Effect!). It's not that these portrayals of women are a problem in and of themselves, but when it becomes the norm I think that it is.

Oh, and reading through this thread to catch up on what's being discussed I feel sick to my stomach. The attitudes of some posters regarding rape and its under/over-prosecution is unbelievable. I can't even begin to fathom some people's views on this, and I really don't want to.

im not just talking about how women view men im talking about society in general. for instance for a man to vote in the US he is required to be willing to give his life for his country by signing up to the draft. if he dose not he gives up a number of rights that women get by default, for instance if you don't register you'll find it very difficult to vote aswell. not to mention your not seen as a real man if you don't go when your called up.

not to mention men dont get any real choice in what to do in life. its either work full time or called a looser or not a real man. women however can work, they can be a stay at home parent, they can even just be a house wife without kids and no-one has a go at them.

oh and it may not be all women who go for "succesful guys" but most do, last year match.com released their finding that 80% of women would only go for men who make more money than they do and who have an equal or greater education than they do.

also how would you like to be told that your not needed in society and that you are inadequate because you are male by people like Harriet Harman who is quoted as saying "men can not be trusted to run thing on their own" and "if I was PM there wouldn't be enough airports for all the men to leave" and Hillary Clinton who has said "men are not the victims of war, it is the women they left behind" oh yeah because I guess they're just inconveniently dead right? now i don't know about you but i thought the primary victims of war where the people who die. not the people who lived.

and not to mention people like this: http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html who think that men are inherently evil and should all be castrated.

men aren't seen as men in society unless they "prove themselves" and even then they are disposable and a problem. a woman however can do whatever the fuck she wants and she is still seen as a women.

oh and by the way if your definition of sexism is someone looking sexy even if they can beat up any man they want and can hit a target at 500 yards and still have a deep character arch. then i don't really think you have much to worry about given the fact that male chars get the same treatment, like how all the male armour and uniforms in ME all have the abs very well defined and all the men are seen as masculine gods. not to mention how Jacob Taylor had an entire video clip in the shadow broker lair of him doing sit ups without a shirt. and like Jim Sterling said "if you think male chars aren't sexualised, then type devil may cry into deviant art and tell me im wrong"

 

[Mikeyfell]

I'm not going to say she "Deserves" all the hate, but she is kinda stupid.
If her videos demonstrate one thing it's that she doesn't pay attention.
She's like the Fox News of Youtube, And that's saying something.
(Yes I only watched her vids because they're hilariously bad)
After a while you get the impression that she doesn't think women are capable of being individuals. by some of her videos trying to convince people that the notion of "romance" is inherently sexist in and of it's self.

Or her thrashing of strong female characters just...because?
Usually accomplishing the character assassination by taking things out of context or making things up.

It's pretty bad, but I think her videos should be flagged as "Bullshit" instead of "terrorism"

 

[Hollyday]

for a man to vote in the US he is required to be willing to give his life for his country by signing up to the draft. if he dose not he gives up a number of rights that women get by default, for instance if you don't register you'll find it very difficult to vote aswell. not to mention your not seen as a real man if you don't go when your called up.

Not being from the US I don't really understand this - could you explain it a bit more? I agree with you that men face plenty of sexism themselves, especially this idea of a 'real man' being a strong protector etc. This is definitely something you (and we all) should be fighting against.

not to mention men dont get any real choice in what to do in life. its either work full time or called a loser or not a real man. women however can work, they can be a stay at home parent, they can even just be a house wife without kids and no-one has a go at them.

I don't think this is true. Once women get to a certain age the pressure to settle down and have kids is pretty overwhelming, even in countries like the UK. Here in Italy it's ridiculous - some of my friends are in their early 30s, and those who aren't married yet are considered to be spoiled goods (actual words she got called). The same thing is true of single women who have a lot of sex - they're seen as disgusting, unladylike and all sorts of awful words and are completely dehumanised. Men who sleep around? Lady's man, likes to have a good time, cheeky chappy, bit of a charmer. Career women also face some pretty severe discrimination both in the workplace and in society in general. You only have to look at the small number of women who reach positions of power in top companies. It's not because of intelligence/skill/ability - education and workplace statistics prove that. Some of it is down to leaving work to have children. But all of it? Not a chance. I lived in Finland for a bit and they seem really progressive when it comes to gender equality. Women seem to have more high-powered jobs and the split of stay at home mums/dads is almost 50/50. Hopefully it's the way all countries are slowly moving.


I would never deny that men have problems dealing with stereotypes. I have enough male friends who went off the rails in their teens/early 20s because they just had no direction and couldn't deal with the pressure of being out in the world and being expected to just cope. In the same way that it makes you angry when men's problems in society are ignored, I get angry when women's are. You only have to read back through this thread to see the comments of 'women's equality is a non-issue', 'women are already equal', 'what's the problem', 'what are they moaning about'. I see inequality through the media and through society's expectations of me and other women every day. Not because I'm looking for it, or over-analysing, but because it's there, I feel it. I'm not a man, so I can't comment on the severity of it for you, but I assume it's fairly similar. We're working on it on this side. Men should be doing the same from theirs.

and not to mention people like this: http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html who think that men are inherently evil and should all be castrated.

Ha! what a nutter. Women eh? we're all crazy b******... I can say with total certainty that I have never met anyone so crazy that they think mass castration is the way forward. Similarly, there are some men out there in the world who think that female circumcision is the best way to make sure their wives stay faithful to them. Sadly, some of them have had the ability to carry out their genuinely horrific ideas: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/female_genital_mutilation.shtml

oh and by the way if your definition of sexism is someone looking sexy even if they can beat up any man they want and can hit a target at 500 yards and still have a deep character arch. then i don't really think you have much to worry about given the fact that male chars get the same treatment, like how all the male armour and uniforms in ME all have the abs very well defined and all the men are seen as masculine gods. not to mention how Jacob Taylor had an entire video clip in the shadow broker lair of him doing sit ups without a shirt. and like Jim Sterling said "if you think male chars aren't sexualised, then type devil may cry into deviant art and tell me im wrong"

Oh good god, I just looked it up. My eyes....THEY'RE BURNING! Why would you tell me to do that, Jim Sterling? WHY!?

That isn't my definition of sexism. My definition of sexism would be when they don't have a deep character arc, and it's often the case that they don't. I find that I usually prefer the male characters in games, which confuses me a little since I almost always find it easier to identify with the female characters in books for example. I think there are just many more interesting male characters written than interesting female ones. You may disagree with me, but it's just my opinion. I'd really like to see more unconventional female characters in games in the future. If they happen to be sexy as well that's not a problem.

To talk about Mass effect again for a moment, I do find the portrayal of the male and female characters really interesting. For example, Dr. Chakwas is one of the only older female characters I've seen in a game who isn't someone's mum. Or a witch. It's pretty refreshing (shame she's not playable). Likewise Urdnot Bakara. Out of the playable characters though, as much as I like pretty much all of them, there is a little bit of sexism going on. All the playable females are attractive, and almost all can be romanced at some point (I think Kasumi is the only exception, but she's still sexy, and EDI and joker getting together counts her in), whilst some of the men are old/just plain strange and are definitely not trying to be attractive (Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin, does Legion count? I should probably include Wrex but god dammit I love that Krogan). It's not wrong but it is... interesting.

 

[minuialear]

but putting pressure on men to create female characters to women's standards creates even more of a divide than women creating something for them selves.

The thing is, "to women's standards" is a loaded concept. It assumes that women as a whole have an idealized concept of what every female character should be like, which is false. There will always be a vocal minority who claim the only good woman character is one that has the typically-cited laundry list of conflicting ideals (sexy but not too sexy; aggressive but not too aggressive; etc), but for the most part, women just want characters who don't exist to be sexualized in their games.

Joss Whedon's female characters, for example, tend to be of a wide variety of personalities, degrees of sexiness, etc. Many of them aren't leader characters (see: Firefly (River, Kaylee, Inara), Dollhouse (Sierra)). What makes them "to women's standards" is simply the fact that they serve some kind of purpose in the show that's more essential than "I'm here to be pretty." Kaylee's an airhead, but also is brilliant at other things and serves a purpose other than simply being the innocent cute girl character in the show. Inara is almost a prostitute and has a lot of sex scenes in the show, but because she has a well-rounded personality and because she's not there just to have sex with people or look sexy, she's well-received. It's not really rocket science to make characters that appeal to people in demographics other than your own, and if people keep assuming it is, then that's at least half of where their problems lie.

Is not the point of feminism equal rights? Where women have an equal right to create female characters as they see fit just like men do. Not to use it as a sword which to point at men and force a woman's ideals into their creative process.

Yes...at the same time, the burden of making diverse characters shouldn't just lie on developers of those demographics. The way I see it, developers of all creeds ought to be striving to make games as diverse as the population that plays them, and when people start assuming that it's female developers' jobs to make good women characters, the result is inevitably that because these women are at work making women look good, male developers don't need to work equally hard to do so. The same could be seen with black people and BET; people saw all these black people trying to make themselves more prominent on TV by making sure they gave black people lead roles, etc, and for a long time (and to some extent, to this day) people made the argument that black people have plenty of lead roles, just look at BET, we don't need to put them in better roles elsewhere, etc.

Yes, the minority has a responsibility to take its own destiny in its hands and try to gain prominence in media; no, they should not be the only ones trying to do so.

On the examples of men writing female characters...well saying that someone else "could" and did do something is not a reason why everyone else in the field "should have to" do something.

The argument isn't that male writers "should have to" put good female characters in their games (though, really, they should); it's that claiming that they have an excuse not to because they aren't women is bogus. Unless the male writers are planning to have a game that goes into the complex psychology of childbirth or something similar, your character just has to act like a normal human being. Any good writer ought to understand normal human beings well enough to pull that off, and I offered just a few examples of authors who have proven this to be true.

But even if the male writer DOES want to get into the psychology of childbirth, there's an easy way to do so; it's called "research." Book authors do this all the time (as do a fair number of television, theater, etc writers) in order to enhance their characters and their product as a whole; I don't see why we can't also hold video game writers to that kind of standard in general (not just for female characters). The concept that video games writers as a whole are allowed to be terrible writers just because is wearing thin on me, honestly.

Also no, a man "cant" know how women idealize themselves because they are not a woman they can only try and understand, most of the time its not a sexist view of women from creators but a misunderstood one. Some women in society do empower themselves using large breasts, skimpy clothing and sex appeal.

Like I keep saying, the problem isn't whether women have large breasts or skimpy clothing, it's why. Some women do empower themselves by dressing like sluts, but they do it for a purpose that generally doesn't amount to "I want to be eye candy for everyone in the world and nothing more." Please try to understand this; the problem with sexualized women is not just that they are sexualized; it's that they are sexualized in a manner that takes power and control away from them and gives it to a (presumed) male player.

Catwoman pre-reboot was sexualized but largely loved because she was in control of this sexuality and used it for her own purposes, which were not purely to woo a man, were not the result of being subservient to anyone, etc; Catwoman post-reboot is sexualized and criticized because it's obvious that a lot of it is now pure fanservice and is not the result of her choosing to use her sexuality to some larger end.

I think many people know there is a problem with the way women are portrayed in video games or at least that many women are not happy with it but publishers look mainly at the bottom line and without support and a group telling them why they support a game with a proper female character/s they will assume that it just did well and not care either way but if they felt a game sold more because of support from women they might actually look at the issue as a selling point and find a way to tap into that market.

Women already do this; for every negative blog post about females in games, there's at least one blog post praising the few examples of positive female characters. The problem is that there are a lot more of the former than the latter, and the proportion of new characters skews to the former more than the latter. At some point it needs to be realized that repeating over and over again that Alyx Vance was an awesome character isn't generating half as much publicity and attention as complaining about the treatment of the newest Lara Croft. And when that happens, people have to use the tools given to them.

 

[Trekkie]

for a man to vote in the US he is required to be willing to give his life for his country by signing up to the draft. if he dose not he gives up a number of rights that women get by default, for instance if you don't register you'll find it very difficult to vote aswell. not to mention your not seen as a real man if you don't go when your called up.

Not being from the US I don't really understand this - could you explain it a bit more? I agree with you that men face plenty of sexism themselves, especially this idea of a 'real man' being a strong protector etc. This is definitely something you (and we all) should be fighting against.

not to mention men dont get any real choice in what to do in life. its either work full time or called a loser or not a real man. women however can work, they can be a stay at home parent, they can even just be a house wife without kids and no-one has a go at them.

I don't think this is true. Once women get to a certain age the pressure to settle down and have kids is pretty overwhelming, even in countries like the UK. Here in Italy it's ridiculous - some of my friends are in their early 30s, and those who aren't married yet are considered to be spoiled goods (actual words she got called). The same thing is true of single women who have a lot of sex - they're seen as disgusting, unladylike and all sorts of awful words and are completely dehumanised. Men who sleep around? Lady's man, likes to have a good time, cheeky chappy, bit of a charmer. Career women also face some pretty severe discrimination both in the workplace and in society in general. You only have to look at the small number of women who reach positions of power in top companies. It's not because of intelligence/skill/ability - education and workplace statistics prove that. Some of it is down to leaving work to have children. But all of it? Not a chance. I lived in Finland for a bit and they seem really progressive when it comes to gender equality. Women seem to have more high-powered jobs and the split of stay at home mums/dads is almost 50/50. Hopefully it's the way all countries are slowly moving.


I would never deny that men have problems dealing with stereotypes. I have enough male friends who went off the rails in their teens/early 20s because they just had no direction and couldn't deal with the pressure of being out in the world and being expected to just cope. In the same way that it makes you angry when men's problems in society are ignored, I get angry when women's are. You only have to read back through this thread to see the comments of 'women's equality is a non-issue', 'women are already equal', 'what's the problem', 'what are they moaning about'. I see inequality through the media and through society's expectations of me and other women every day. Not because I'm looking for it, or over-analysing, but because it's there, I feel it. I'm not a man, so I can't comment on the severity of it for you, but I assume it's fairly similar. We're working on it on this side. Men should be doing the same from theirs.

and not to mention people like this: http://thefemitheist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/allow-me-to-introduce-myself.html who think that men are inherently evil and should all be castrated.

Ha! what a nutter. Women eh? we're all crazy b******... I can say with total certainty that I have never met anyone so crazy that they think mass castration is the way forward. Similarly, there are some men out there in the world who think that female circumcision is the best way to make sure their wives stay faithful to them. Sadly, some of them have had the ability to carry out their genuinely horrific ideas: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/female_genital_mutilation.shtml

oh and by the way if your definition of sexism is someone looking sexy even if they can beat up any man they want and can hit a target at 500 yards and still have a deep character arch. then i don't really think you have much to worry about given the fact that male chars get the same treatment, like how all the male armour and uniforms in ME all have the abs very well defined and all the men are seen as masculine gods. not to mention how Jacob Taylor had an entire video clip in the shadow broker lair of him doing sit ups without a shirt. and like Jim Sterling said "if you think male chars aren't sexualised, then type devil may cry into deviant art and tell me im wrong"

Oh good god, I just looked it up. My eyes....THEY'RE BURNING! Why would you tell me to do that, Jim Sterling? WHY!?

That isn't my definition of sexism. My definition of sexism would be when they don't have a deep character arc, and it's often the case that they don't. I find that I usually prefer the male characters in games, which confuses me a little since I almost always find it easier to identify with the female characters in books for example. I think there are just many more interesting male characters written than interesting female ones. You may disagree with me, but it's just my opinion. I'd really like to see more unconventional female characters in games in the future. If they happen to be sexy as well that's not a problem.

To talk about Mass effect again for a moment, I do find the portrayal of the male and female characters really interesting. For example, Dr. Chakwas is one of the only older female characters I've seen in a game who isn't someone's mum. Or a witch. It's pretty refreshing (shame she's not playable). Likewise Urdnot Bakara. Out of the playable characters though, as much as I like pretty much all of them, there is a little bit of sexism going on. All the playable females are attractive, and almost all can be romanced at some point (I think Kasumi is the only exception, but she's still sexy, and EDI and joker getting together counts her in), whilst some of the men are old/just plain strange and are definitely not trying to be attractive (Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin, does Legion count? I should probably include Wrex but god dammit I love that Krogan). It's not wrong but it is... interesting.

To be honest I don't live in the US however i have a lot of friends a relatives for whom I stay in regular touch with. During the 2008 election on of my cousins told me he wasn't to sure about voting and when i asked why he said because in order to vote he would have to register for the draft and that he didn't want to fight in a war unless he agreed with it, he even showed me the form he had to sighn in order to be able to vote :/ , his sister however did not have to register for the draft.

beyond that there are a few points i want to make. the pressure for married thing is something that men over the age of 30 have to deal with aswell. there seems to be this assertion that if your a man over 30 and who isn't married then your wasting you life and you're taking away the happiness and dreams of a woman somewhere in the world.... and im actually not joking there one of my drinking buddies was told that if he didn't marry then he was taking away the happiness of someone ells.

the stud v slut argument isn't what it appears to be honest, there only seems to be one side being told. I work in the construction industry and as such i work with a lot of men. and let me tell you a man is only a stud if he sleeps with attractive women, same with women who get very attractive men or women who get young men and are called cougars, a term used from what iv seen as a glorification whilst a man who sleeps with young women is a called a creep.

however if a man "slings it about" (sorry for that image) and sleeps with any woman he can then amongst men he is seen as a walking STD and who is being irresponsible and who is undesirable. Seriously I have actually seen men refuse to use the same bathroom stall with a man who dose this in case they get herpes or something. and have seen men clean anything his bare arse touches with bleach, like a portable toilet. and if you think im exaggerating, im really not. Ask guys this they will confirm.

with the high up jobs, id like to point out that unless you built an empire like Facebook at a young age then your only going to get up into a high position when your in your late 40's through 70's. note how all the us presidential candidates look like there should be a nurse with them at all times and this is where the two genders come in, like you said having a family is a big part of it and women have a closer bond with their children from birth than men do meaning that women will want to stay with their child more than men do. there is also the fact that women do take different choices than do when it comes to career. like i said earlier, men are always under pressure to climb that ladder and to make more money all the way up until they reach the grave. The British government are actually thinking of raising the mens retirement age from 65 to 70 and leaving women's at 60 and this is while the average age of death for men is 76 so they would only have 6 years of retirement whilst women live to 81 and would get 21 years of retirement meaning that men will have to pay into the system for ten years after women stop in order to get a pension. in the 2009 consad report forwarded by the US department of labour:

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

Data shows that men choose to take on more stressful, time consuming and demanding jobs whilst women choose more flexaball jobs that give more free time and better work hours. For instance about week ago on the BBC they was reporting that the Royal Navey enlisted their first female captain and how this was "another barrier broken" but stuck out to me was the fact that she was 40 and in a job like that of the Navy the stress is at boiling point, the hours are awful, you risk your life the conditions are.... well.... shit and your away from home all the time. Another example is our own Games industry. I used to listen to a podcast called world one stage one, where one of the hosts worked for lionhead, and apparently he had to sleep under his desk a lot of nights because the hours where soo harsh from the tight deadlines. These are factors that turn people away from that job, especially women who as the data shows, don't want that kind of job that requires a commitment that heavy that they cant have a life outside of it which just about all high up positions have, i mean have you seen how much obama has aged in the past 4 years, the high up jobs are misery and frankly unless your pushed to do it to the extend in which unless you shoot that you are not worthy then people aren't going to do it.

At the moment there is a phenomenon in Japan which the media call the grass eating boys or peter pan boys because they're not interested in working that ladder and working till they die. Because of it japans economy is getting worse, the birth rate is starting to falter because women aren't interested in grass eaters and so it has made the media and Japanese govt put out press releases saying that men need to man up!

(I know it is long, bare with me)

you brought up genital mutilation which is a particular gripe of mine because there isa form of genital mutilation that is practised on boys legally and in the us 80 - 9- percent of bys have had it done, its called circumcision. it holds NO medical benefits, removes 6 square inches of skin when stretched out, cuts off over 240 nerves and actually makes sex less pleasurable for men and here is the thing, they do this when men are babies so not only do they not have a choice in the matter they don't use antistatic because allot of places still believe it painless.

now i must warn you this is very hard to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9C6T9QoLTM&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLDA120404B38CCDF1

but tell me is that baby not in pain? and all a circumcision dose is inhibit male sexual sensation. so why is Female GM illegal in most countries and Male GM (and i will call it genital mutilation because that's what it is, you are cutting off a piece of the mas penis that by the way is fused to his glands at birth by default) why is that legal everywhere?

regarding the "quit whining" comments, i see where your coming from and i understand as this is something that men face a hell of a lot, Serena Williams (the tennis player) called men who complain whiners and to stay on topic our own Jim sterling has taking a swing at it to:

http://www.gamefront.com/misandry-in-videogames-oh-grow-the-f-k-up/

apparently he think men who complain about misandry in games are just cry babies who need to grow up. see a parallel? and this is a games journalist.....

quick note about the choosing the opposite sex as a char. yeah i do that to, not really sure why..... Skyrim... female.... fallout..... female..... saints row.... female..... ME.... Female.... not sure why

the issue of Kasumi and zaheed I think has more to do with them being DLC so they didnt put in too much content for some reason. the same can be said for older men when it comes to games aswell, they don't do the same as with older females but they still tend to take a back seat, like how navigator Presley had nothing to do in the game what so ever except point out the damn obvious. same thing with the chef in ME 2 and with other games they tend to be some wizard, or wise man.... you get the idea.

and iv said before about how men and women are attracted to different things. whilst men are attracted to boobs etc, women are attracted by the ability to protect, see Garus and those strong turian arms Wrex and grunt however i see that as a lore thing being as krogan tend to want to have krogan babies because of the genophage, chars like thane seem to have that strong silent type appeal that some women like, joker has the wit, banter etc. and the pity card. james.... muscles.... you get the idea. it is there its all there just in different ways.

i think that is about it, sorry if I missed anything it took me about an hour to write this.... no seriously...

EDIT: oh and sorry if my grammar sucks. i kept having to go back and edit to include things i forgot so it may be patchy :/

 

[Kraj]

I really would like to say something constructive...
I'm too busy being stunned that she actually got 43000 dollars for THAT. >_>
I'm not sure whether to laugh, cheer, or cry.

 

[ACman]

exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?


Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

WOW, okay, read it again because i don't think the phrase false accusation means what you think it mean. a false accusation of rape is when someone lies about someone raping them when that rape didn't actually happen.

and i stick by my last comment, if women didn't make a false accusation of rape, then the time and money wasted on investigating that lie could be used to solve an actual crime like.... oh lets say.... a rape that actually happened.

No shit. But you can't differentiate between false accusations and real ones before you investigate can you? And every accusation of rape deserves to at least be investigated to see whether it merits prosecution.

The fact that there might be a false accusation occasionally has no baring on that. You cannot come from a standpoint that the claim is probably false.

And the fact that you have decide to complain about this on the forum post for an article decrying internet misogyny says something very dire about your personality.

 

[Trekkie]

exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?


Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

WOW, okay, read it again because i don't think the phrase false accusation means what you think it mean. a false accusation of rape is when someone lies about someone raping them when that rape didn't actually happen.

and i stick by my last comment, if women didn't make a false accusation of rape, then the time and money wasted on investigating that lie could be used to solve an actual crime like.... oh lets say.... a rape that actually happened.

No shit. But you can't differentiate between false accusations and real ones before you investigate can you? And every accusation of rape deserves to at least be investigated to see whether it merits prosecution.

The fact that there might be a false accusation occasionally has no baring on that. You cannot come from a standpoint that the claim is probably false.

And the fact that you have decide to complain about this on the forum post for an article decrying internet misogyny says something very dire about your personality.

yes but if people didn't falsely accuser others of things like this we could be more effective at stopping it when it happens, or do you not seem to understand that that was my point? not that "we shouldnt investigate rape" that's just a retarded thing to say frankly. and what happened to the accused is innocent until proven guilty? if we assume that the claim is true simply on someone's word instead of discerning what's true from the evidence that the accuser provides (which by the way is what our justice system is built on) then we turn the accused into a guilty person simply on a claim.

oh and did you no occur to you that maybe my post was a response to the post above it?