Killing and consequences

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meatloaf231

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Feb 13, 2008
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Disclaimer: when I say ?we,? I'm referring to the average college-age gamer, not too hardcore and not too casual.

We live in an era of gaming where the act of taking a life in a game has become simple, easy, and isolated. We have more than likely killed thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of other human beings apiece. Between all of us, I'm sure we have killed off the entire human race more times that we could care to count. We've done all this with (rightly) little regard for the lines of code and polygons that we had just spewed particle effects at, and no real emotion other than an occasional ?Finally, he's dead, now I can move on to the next bit.?

The point I am dancing laboriously about is that we don't care who we're killing, as long as they're some faceless enemy, typically monsters (Locust), aliens (Covenant), or Nazis (Nazis). We don't instinctively want convincing enemies with almost-compelling causes, we want evil scientists, corrupt governments or corporations, and mindlessly violent soldiers. When we're sitting down to play a game, we don't want to feel our resolve waver as the soldiers wife watches us slaughter her husband, or to hesitate before we execute the kneeling, broken man in front of us. We just want something to hate, something unerringly ?bad,? and this can be an obstacle to games' capability for inducing emotion and provoking thought.

When someone is killed in real life, their family grieves, and must learn to survive with only one working adult that must then explain to their children that daddy won't ever be coming home, their extended family plans a funeral, their children have to grow up missing a parent... the list goes on of consequences of someone's death, especially when the person is killed by violence rather than natural causes. These consequences are often completely ignored by video games, because it would most likely take a lot of fun out of war games, among many others wherein violence is a major theme.

When Prototype's absorb-someone's-memories mechanic was announced, I was intrigued. I know it won't be used for anything but plot revelation, but it made me think that perhaps the results of someone's death in a game could mean more than just grabbing a new clip of ammo off his body. It's a rudimentary idea, but perhaps a protagonist with time-viewing abilities or some such, who will always see every result of every action. This could be implemented in gameplay as a time-control mechanic, but every time you kill an enemy, flashes of their mourning family/their funeral and whatnot would start showing up on the screen, or something to that extent. It couldn't be a cutscene, just flashes over the screen.

This would be night-impossible to pull off, as each enemy would need an entire life created for them, including unique families and experiences. Another great obstacle is breaking the mental barrier of many-an entertainment-searching gamer in order to change their mindset from ?I'm looking to have fun blowing things to little bits? to ?This is a somewhat serious subject and I am being shown something about it.? The goal of the game would be to challenge gamers to start taking violence seriously, if only within the context of that game.

Like I said, it's not a very thought-out concept as of right now ? in fact it's pretty terrible at the moment, but I think there is a way to make killing something with some gravity; actually ending someone's existence rather than removing an obstacle. It'd probably only work if the enemies were compelling and realistic, rather than the traditional Locust-types. Then along shambles the problem that the game probably wouldn't be any fun. Few people would actually want to go on realistic, depressing, emotive killing sprees wherein every kill is another layer of guilt. The other side of the spectrum is if the mechanic was poorly executed it would feel shallow and corny, like an 80's B movie.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the more entertainment-oriented games immensely. Most of my collection consists of shooters. I like chainsawing someone in half now and then, or blowing up a few buildings. It can be quite relaxing and makes a great distraction, but I feel like most games are lacking in any real substance.

In conclusion, I think that games' unique aspect ? interactivity ? could be exploited in many different ways to invoke emotive and immersive situations and stories. Violent games, however, still have their place as great ways to spend an hour or two with your friends, but they're usually not sophisticated artistic works. The fact that killing has become so simple could become a large impediment to games' opportunities as an artistic medium..

Well, there's my little rant. So do you (mostly) good folks think killing is too easy in video games? Should killing someone have realistic consequences? Should games start adopting consequences for violence, or if these ideas are implemented, should they stay in a separate genre of "serious" games, and leave the normal games the way they are? Are ultra-violent games actually something of a blight on the industry, or are they just harmless fun? Should game developers seek to advance the medium, or is gaming going to remain a pastime rather than art? Can games be artistic and fun at the same time, or must simple enjoyment be sacrificed for artistry?

Do the discussing.
 

oliveira8

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Feb 2, 2009
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Video Games are digital toys, yes they can be art, but filling games with morality choises that may end up making the player feel bad for what he is doing and thus removing the fun part of the game, it would just result in a very bad depressing game.

A game that does well this sort of morality its Shadow of the Collosus, it never really sacrifices the fun(Well...maybe climbing for thr 10th time Colosis might get a bit dull and repetitive) and still can pull some artist statement.

But the point is: Do we really need to face the consequences of killing some? Not really no, it would just make some players feel bad about themselfs and just stop playing the game.

Video Games are meant to be fun.
 

sgtshock

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Feb 11, 2009
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It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would really work for shooters, at least not the type where you kill an entire armada of enemies by the games end. There always needs to be those types of games, just like there always needs to be Die Hard movies. They're harmless, explosive fun with little time to think of consequences.

That said, I think this could work in an adventure game, like Indigo Prophecy, or maybe even in an RPG (although it would have to be an RPG with little destroying of human lives). I think it would only work if the killing was the player's choice, and not something he had to do. Otherwise that would remove a lot of the guilt. And instead of a flashback, maybe constantly remind the player of their actions through the rest of the game. I.e. meeting their grieving family members later in the game.
 

Lost In The Void

When in doubt, curl up and cry
Aug 27, 2008
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Since prototype is going to be a sandbox I figure I'll give what I think about this kind of thing in sandbox games too. I think adding some real reactions for your killing would be a great way to add some immersion to the game itself. What else could really make you feel like you've done something wrong in Grand Theft Auto, or Saints Row if every civi you've killed or hit had a story, or for that matter any cop. Unfortunately even though I used those games as an example I don't believe it would work that well for sandbox, but back onto your topic which I'm assuming is FPSs.

Yes the gaming world has made it very easy to kill. It's literally as easy as pushing a button. No there are no consequences for this, nor do most gamers want this as it would make the mindless waves of idiot gamers despise killing their enemies, or worse make them relate to them. For the more immersed gamer however, I think it would really make you think about your options before doing this. Is it really necessary to kill this person, do I really want his blood on my hands? This kind of gaming would, for one provide an amazing gaming experience, and second help convince the world we're not ticking time bombs bent on killing the nearest thing.
 

Kaijj

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May 5, 2009
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I personally would only pause and think if I should kill someone in a game with memory absorbing powers because I wouldn't want to sit and watch a ten hour cut scene on their life. What's the fun in that? It's just a video game, and I'm only shooting pixel bullets at pixel people. No harm done.
 

Slash Dementia

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Apr 6, 2009
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I think it would be a great idea to have video games show more consequences to violence. I would believe that it would fit an RPG better than anything. Fable 2 does this a very little bit, but it's nothing to seriously think over who or what you kill. For example: you kill your wife and the villagers start calling you a wife killer.

I saw we need more serious games with all consequences like this. Hopefully it's made and done right some time in the near future.
 

CounterAttack

A Writer With Many Faces
Dec 25, 2008
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What the hell, man. Games don't need a backstory for every single person you meet. Just shoot them, move on to the next one and wait for the next round. Unless you're playing Fallout 3, in which case just keep the kills coming.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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oliveira8 said:
Video Games are digital toys, yes they can be art, but filling games with morality choises that may end up making the player feel bad for what he is doing and thus removing the fun part of the game, it would just result in a very bad depressing game.

A game that does well this sort of morality its Shadow of the Collosus, it never really sacrifices the fun(Well...maybe climbing for thr 10th time Colosis might get a bit dull and repetitive) and still can pull some artist statement.

But the point is: Do we really need to face the consequences of killing some? Not really no, it would just make some players feel bad about themselfs and just stop playing the game.

Video Games are meant to be fun.
At this point, yes, they are more or less just toys, and there's really nothing wrong with this. There is always going to be a place for fun games. I am just wondering whether this is all games should ever be, or if there's capabilities for more serious content.

I'm also not saying that all games should include realistic consequences. That would most definitely kill the fun of shooters, having to deal with every death realistically. I can't imagine enjoying Call of Duty if I was thinking about each human being I killed. I'm just saying that there's probably a way to tastefully include realistic consequences in a game wherein fun is not the only goal.

CounterAttack said:
What the hell, man. Games don't need a backstory for every single person you meet. Just shoot them, move on to the next one and wait for the next round. Unless you're playing Fallout 3, in which case just keep the kills coming.
I'm not saying that all games need this mechanic, I'm just saying that killing has become very simple to do. I wouldn't want to play Fallout 3 if every enemy had a backstory. It just wouldn't be fun. I'm talking about a mechanic included in a game that never was intended to be "just fun." Think something along the lines of Six Days in Fallujah. I don't think that game would be "fun," but I'd still want to play it.
 

oliveira8

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meatloaf231 said:
oliveira8 said:
Video Games are digital toys, yes they can be art, but filling games with morality choises that may end up making the player feel bad for what he is doing and thus removing the fun part of the game, it would just result in a very bad depressing game.

A game that does well this sort of morality its Shadow of the Collosus, it never really sacrifices the fun(Well...maybe climbing for thr 10th time Colosis might get a bit dull and repetitive) and still can pull some artist statement.

But the point is: Do we really need to face the consequences of killing some? Not really no, it would just make some players feel bad about themselfs and just stop playing the game.

Video Games are meant to be fun.
At this point, yes, they are more or less just toys, and there's really nothing wrong with this. There is always going to be a place for fun games. I am just wondering whether this is all games should ever be, or if there's capabilities for more serious content.

I'm also not saying that all games should include realistic consequences. That would most definitely kill the fun of shooters, having to deal with every death realistically. I can't imagine enjoying Call of Duty if I was thinking about each human being I killed. I'm just saying that there's probably a way to tastefully include realistic consequences in a game wherein fun is not the only goal.
The best way to implement such a thing is to add the Karma system of Fallout 3...but properly.(which was very crappy in FO3.)

But for you first part. Yes Video Games should be in essense Toys. If not we going headed the path that the Comic Book industry went in the 90's aka the gutter.

Imagine if we didnt had Super Mario. The first games people would pick up would be Bioshock, Half Life's, Call of Duty , God of War, Halo, Resident Evil, Doom, Quake and the likes. Are these games suitable to introduce to a younger audience, to make them in touch with videogames in a early age?

If we kill the games that are made to be nothing less than pure FUN the likes of Super Mario and Legend of Zelda(Yes I know any player of any age can play those games.), that can appeal to children and the likes , the industry doesnt renew itself and if it doesnt it will end up stagnating, cause a gamers active gaming lifespan is expired around 35 years old(Yes, I'm aware of 80 year old game.) And if there is noone to fill the places that they leave, Video Games go "Poof!" just like the Comic Book industry did in the 90's.

After The Watchmen, V for Vendetta and The Dark Knight Returns the Comic Book industry realised that gritty and serious worked. And from then on they followed in those comic's direction. Which ended in having NO comic books to introduce to children, after Mickey Mouse! After awhile everyone got fed up of Gritty and serious and stoped buying comic books.

Now compare that to what is going on in gaming industry? Look at the main releases of the PS3 and the 360? Is there anything suitable to introduce to kids so they can start getting into gaming? Not really. Everyone is trying to make more realistic games to the point of extreme and silly. One day everyone is going to get fed up and the Game industry will go to an early grave.

Yes there is room for serious games, but should video games evolve into that, leaving in the dark games like Super Mario?


Game developers can't forget they making toys first and art later, or else they will fall into a death trap.

Edit:changed some parts of the text.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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oliveira8 said:
Game developers can't forget they making toys first and art later, or else they will fall into a death trap.
Yes, this could be true in some situations. However, think of the movie industry. There is a movie genre for every taste and every age imaginable. There are kids movies, family movies, artsy movies, serious action movies, fun action movies, romances, comedies, romantic comedies, social commentaries, etc. etc. Why can't the games industry move along a similar path? Right now, the only really successful genres are the fun games (racing, shooters, brawlers, etc.) and the serious RPGs - MMOs are another beast altogether. The only thing that really varies is the setting and the action that you're doing - driving a car, killing gods, whatever. Please note that I'm not implying that there should be romantic comedy games. I'm just saying that the film industry has a much broader scope of subject matter, while games are mostly just fun/action-oriented.

Just because games up to this point have been mostly just fun does not mean that there isn't room in the industry for more serious games. I'm not saying every game should be serious and deep, and I'm not saying that we should stop making and playing games that are just fun. I'm just saying that we don't really have many games that actually have substance, and that there's a lot of untapped potential there.

Edit: the karma system, albeit particularly bad in fallout, would never work. It's numbers. You can't just give someone bad karma or Dark Side Points or whatever the game uses and expect them to start thinking about their actions. The main problem with this system is that it's the developers' morals and not the person's morals. You have to choose between whatever options the developers set in front of you, and often there's a better solution to a problem, but you can't do it because it wasn't included in the game. Putting morality sliders into games feels artificial, and it never works because morality isn't black and white.
 

ryai458

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as you said it wouldnt be very enjoyable and it would get old fast imagine every time you kill someone there life flashs before your eyes oh wait you just threw a grenade and killed four people well here comes another set of memories, now this could actually be interesting to mod into counter strike everytime you kill someone you see flashs of there play time tid bits of there prior games it could be interesting but for a main part of game mechanic it would grow repetitive quickly
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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ryai458 said:
as you said it wouldnt be very enjoyable and it would get old fast imagine every time you kill someone there life flashs before your eyes oh wait you just threw a grenade and killed four people well here comes another set of memories, now this could actually be interesting to mod into counter strike everytime you kill someone you see flashs of there play time tid bits of there prior games it could be interesting but for a main part of game mechanic it would grow repetitive quickly
Aye. The game itself couldn't be very long... maybe an hour or two at most, which means it couldn't be an AAA title. It'd have to be an indie game or a mod, and it'd probably be more of a sociological experiment than a game.
 

oliveira8

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meatloaf231 said:
Yes but the movie industry is here since around the 30's in force. And its run by(believe it or not) smart people, that understand what the audience wants and it had its shares of low points, so they know how the market works.

The Comic Book industry didnt understand what the movie industry got years before, and Comic Books almost went extint in the 90's.

Now is the Gaming Industry runned by smart people?

Well considering that Sony and Microsoft(2 of the big 3) are more interested into doing wars about "My Graphics are more brown than yours!", Nintendo is into releasing piles and piles of shovelware and PC gaming lives in this strange plane and doesnt know if its alive or dead and complaints about DRM.

I'm going to say "We could use more people of the likes of Miyamoto, Ken Levine, Gabe Newell and Mike Morhaime." That actually seem to be in tone with audience.

Miyamoto is still supporting his Zelda, Mario and Metroid franchises with new ideas(not talking about Mario Tennis and other silly spin-offs), Ken Levine someone that knows how to put a solid, great plot into a game(Systemshock 2 and Bioshock), Gabe Newell for releasing solid game after solid game and Steam to try to make PC Gaming more focused and Mike Morhaime(thats the president of Blizzard for those still wondering.) for making games that are easy to get into hard to master.(Just put the people in charge to make a point.)

See? Theres a line of evolution in those 4. Miyamoto Super Mario to Morhaime and Newell Starcraft and Half Life and finally Ken Levine System/Bioshock deep and rich plots. A evolution like that means that even for a young one their first gamning experience wont be Gears of War. If we cut off the kid games most of them wont see the gaming industry. Cause what defines you is your early years. And the first game they pick will be the game they will remenber most lively.

And I'm going off-topic but to make a point. What happens if Sony and Microsoft put out a realistic serious game? And this same game happens to make millions and millions? Well the other companies will also want, and you will start getting more and more serious realistic games. And you can see were this is going. Cause this happened to the comic industry! They saw that The Watchmen made more money than Spider-Man in all his life and the fans liked it and Marvel/DC decided "Shit! This makes money! No more camp spiderman/Batman all gritty and serious now!". And after awhile it crashed and burned.

What happens if the gaming industry will go down this path? As I said this industry is not run entirely by smart people. The major selling point of all consoles was always the HardWare. Not the games, the hardware. First the Hardware then the games. Blue-Ray came first LittleBigPlanet after.(in a very crude way to put things.)

Not saying that SERIOUS, -GRITTY, MAJOR CONSEQUENCES!!- is bad, I'm saying that for this to work we need to have a smart industry to pull it off. We need companies that dont jump into bandwagons like Sony and Microsoft. "Oh what Halo is cool? We need a Halo game quick!", "What DLC's is cool? Quick exclusive DLC!", "What Quick Time Events are cool in God of War? Quick infest games with QTE!" cause that is whats happening right now. And if things go down, Sony and Microsoft will be the firsts to pull the plug on the game section, cause (let me remind this to all) THEY NOT GAMING COMPANIES!

Yes, there is room for serious games with plenty of choises and consequences but we need to be sure that it doesnt infest the market, cause we have bandwagon companies rulling.
 
Mar 26, 2008
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sgtshock said:
That said, I think this could work in an adventure game, like Indigo Prophecy, or maybe even in an RPG (although it would have to be an RPG with little destroying of human lives). I think it would only work if the killing was the player's choice, and not something he had to do. Otherwise that would remove a lot of the guilt. And instead of a flashback, maybe constantly remind the player of their actions through the rest of the game. I.e. meeting their grieving family members later in the game.
Indigo Prophecy was an interesting one as...

you played as both the killer and the cops trying to catch him. As such I felt sorry for the main character and actively sabotaged the efforts of the cops when I was playing as them.

Strangely enough, for all its brutal kill mechanics, the Punisher game had some semi-morality based moments. Take for example you are smashing a guys head with a sliding window and just before you have the opportunity to land the killing blow he shouts "I have a wife and kids!" The game then flashes pictures of the Punisher's dead wife and child.
You have two choices; you can let him go and the Punisher will say something like "go back to them" or you can crush his skull with the window and the Punisher wil say something like, "So did I, punk!" It's interesting because when the enemies spout the wife and kids line to me I often let them go, but if they said something like "I'm just doing my job" I'd kill them.
 

InvisibleMilk

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Slash Dementia said:
I think it would be a great idea to have video games show more consequences to violence. I would believe that it would fit an RPG better than anything. Fable 2 does this a very little bit, but it's nothing to seriously think over who or what you kill. For example: you kill your wife and the villagers start calling you a wife killer.

I saw we need more serious games with all consequences like this. Hopefully it's made and done right some time in the near future.
Yes, Yes Yes.
Some games thrive on the violence, such as L4D, GOW, Gears, RE, (Anymore Abbreviations? Oh wait) CoD, and many other war games. But that's about war, not murdering from spite.
 

McClaud

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If you want to put a serious consequence back into video games, we need to stop this, "I'm magically ressurected after dying only seconds later," bullshit.

I stopped playing MMO's for this very reason. I don't care if people hate losing and are instant gratification whores - there's no real consequence for MMO's other than you may set your future character development into stone if you chose this or that at this point in the game (although with respecs, that's not even a consequence anymore). Single player games would be easy - save and save often!

I think the MMO I would enjoy the most is one that has the threat of permanent character death. It will influence you to act differently and not be such an incouragible spaz in a game that encourages socialization. Players with fears for their character's mortality may actually be more fun to play with.

Of course, my solution to losing hours of invested development in a character would be that your next character inherits some of the previous character's stuff and skill. Sort of a legacy system. And a proper burial/send off for beloved characters. This way, if you were an asshole and didn't make any friends, there will be no one at your funeral. But if you are liked by a lot of people and a part of a clan, your body is entombed in a shrine in the clan masoleum or something.

But seriously - shut off the vitachambers slash ressurected at the graveyard/temple slash respawn with all previous skills, equipment and money nearby without any consequences nonsense. It's annoying for people like me who like depth and strategic/tactical choices. Characters who can't ever die permanently are pretty much bland and annoying.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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oliveira8 said:
*Also snip*
Good points. Yeah, the games industry is very bandwagony, so the best shot these concepts have is indie games and mods. They're low-budget, often cheap or free, they rarely influence major companies, and they're more often short than long. This makes them ideal for the kind of experimentation I'm talking about. You're right in the fact that the major game developers are a bit too jumpy for this to work and the industry to not crash and burn.

Random tangent: here's another idea. Short game wherein you play a civilian or a refugee in a warzone, trying to get yourself (and maybe your family) out of the area and to safety. Maybe it could be set in one of the many African countries wherein civil war has destroyed much of the country and the civilians are the ones truly suffering for it. Maybe that's a terrible, tasteless setting. Like I said, just an idea. Yet again, it'd have to be an indie game or a mod, not an 18-month big-budget title.
 

oliveira8

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meatloaf231 said:
*snipywitty
I can imagine already the headline of Fox News.

"An Indepentend game called "Africus Survivus", is hitting stores today, this game portrays a false African country, filled with War lords, AIDS, black people and lions. This game should be removed from stores right now! Or else it will damage the mind of our youth into thinking that the country of Africa is a bad place to live.

And now to Barack Obama being Hitler."

I wont say its a tasteless setting, but dangerous waters yes.

I tell you what. Remenber Metal Gear Solid 3:Snake Eater? Were Snake had to survive in the jungle and stuff. He had a stamina bar if he didnt eat he would grow tired and lose life and stuff, and rotten food would give him stomach aches.

Why not make something like this? The player is lost in a jungle/forest/whatever without much tools but a swiss army knife and he must find the way out of the jungle. To survive he had to eat/drink/find place to sleep/(we can skip the shat in the woods part..)/survive the wild life /diseases/Donkey Kong etc etc etc. It can be a realistic experience and serious(maybe not the Donkey Kong part.), dont know where can you put the choises and consequences part, maybe "Should I really kill that Tiger mom and all of her cute Tiger kittens for food and shelter?If I try I could get killed...", you had one life and one life only. Die and you start over.(obvious save games would count...)
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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oliveira8 said:
*Ultrasnip*
Aye, that would certainly be an interesting and engaging game, but it completely avoids human interaction, and the violence between people is exactly what I was trying to bring up.

Still, I would definitely play that game.
 

oliveira8

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meatloaf231 said:
oliveira8 said:
*Ultrasnip*
Aye, that would certainly be an interesting and engaging game, but it completely avoids human interaction, and the violence between people is exactly what I was trying to bring up.

Still, I would definitely play that game.
Yeah but instead of human violence you would still get animal violence.

Which is also a big issue, I mean Lara Croft is killing bears for 10 years now and no one cares. Call of Duty 4 kills islamic crazy people "ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!"