I disagree, the whole idea that they are charcaters "made for children" was something that was added later, because Batman more or less was not a kiddy like comic in those early ones before they added Robin.undeadsuitor said:
Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS
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Agreed. Bob Kane's (and Bill Finger's) Batman was definitely darker and more violent than it came to be in the 60s and 70s.Samtemdo8 said:
Honestly, Moore's distaste for TKJ always struck me as just plain old nostalgia on his part, since that silly phase of the character just happened to be roughly around the time he was reading Batman comics. It works just fine as a story; hell, as far as I'm concerned you could take out Batman and the Joker and replace them with any thinly-veiled ripoffs, and it'd still be just as good.
Eh, even if its just conceptually, the relationship is creepy to me. Not to mention the scene of them kissing, yes it was a dream, but still.AccursedTheory said:
I wasn't going to see The Killing Joke anyway. Too dark and depressing for my liking. I admit that it's a good story and deserves to be told and certainly should be made into a movie, but God damn...not the type of emotions I want from a Batman story.
But this? This relationship thing between them? Yeah...I going to fall on the side of it feeling very weird and out of place. Based on what just casual fans know about the Batman franchise, Batgirl is now going to come off as a girl with serious daddy issues, and I kind of have to agree with that fan in the article who said Barbara was powerful over men by using sex. This really does kind of seem like a smack in the face of her character and fans, to be honest.
But this? This relationship thing between them? Yeah...I going to fall on the side of it feeling very weird and out of place. Based on what just casual fans know about the Batman franchise, Batgirl is now going to come off as a girl with serious daddy issues, and I kind of have to agree with that fan in the article who said Barbara was powerful over men by using sex. This really does kind of seem like a smack in the face of her character and fans, to be honest.
Yeah, so a friend of mine filled me in on this and all I can do is shake my head and go "Seriously, DC? SERIOUSLY? You think batgirl pining after batman and only doing it to get his attention before the main point of the comic kicks in somehow makes this a compelling story? REALLY?! That's just disappointing."
Meh, whatever. If they wanna make this, let 'em. I've gone from "no interest" to "less than zero interest", and I expect a fair few people feel the same. I mean, between this and the "Martha" thing I really begin to wonder if DC's film maker teams know how the hell to even write.
...Man, if this is my competition in the world of writing, I feel slightly less depressed about my chances out there.
Meh, whatever. If they wanna make this, let 'em. I've gone from "no interest" to "less than zero interest", and I expect a fair few people feel the same. I mean, between this and the "Martha" thing I really begin to wonder if DC's film maker teams know how the hell to even write.
...Man, if this is my competition in the world of writing, I feel slightly less depressed about my chances out there.
As I suspected, much like the comic, the film is going to be one of the greatest crimes against Barbra Gordon. I was already not going to see it because I suspected they'd be sticking really closely to the source material, but this revelation is... disheartening.
Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.
Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.
I don't mind it to be honest. I like it when adaptions do something different, keeping the sense of the source material but switching it up so those who have seen the original can still be kept guessing to a degree.
Personally I would have liked to have seen more divergence. If I wanted the Killing Joke I know and love, then I'd reach up to my bookshelf and read it.
Personally I would have liked to have seen more divergence. If I wanted the Killing Joke I know and love, then I'd reach up to my bookshelf and read it.
And this means I wont bother with this movie.
I can tollerate alot, but this simply goes too far.
I can tollerate alot, but this simply goes too far.
The thing that gets me about all the "controversies" surrounding TKJ, quite frankly, is how little an understanding of the workings behind your typical superhero comic people - in many cases, people like Gail "Women in Refrigerators" Simone, who have actually worked in the medium - seem to have.
A superhero is first and foremost an IP and a brand, a name and a likeness - to wit, those of the character on the cover. Its single purpose is to make its parent company's shareholders as much money as possible.
Given that, it's fairly obvious that everything in any of said characters' fictional universe is going to revolve around, and be essentially no more than props to keep interest in, these characters. Secondary characters are no exception, nor can I think of a single logical reason why they should be.
If you have an issue with that model then perhaps you might want to widen your reading horizons. There's plenty of fiction, commercial and otherwise, that doesn't operate under it, really.
A superhero is first and foremost an IP and a brand, a name and a likeness - to wit, those of the character on the cover. Its single purpose is to make its parent company's shareholders as much money as possible.
Given that, it's fairly obvious that everything in any of said characters' fictional universe is going to revolve around, and be essentially no more than props to keep interest in, these characters. Secondary characters are no exception, nor can I think of a single logical reason why they should be.
If you have an issue with that model then perhaps you might want to widen your reading horizons. There's plenty of fiction, commercial and otherwise, that doesn't operate under it, really.
Sounds a lot like the creator doesn't really give a damn about their work or their characters any more. Pity really. But such is the entropy of entertainment.
Conceivably, although I don't really believe there's any "shit writing" to be found anywhere near Moore's TKJ (can't say the same for this movie since I haven't seen it).Don Incognito said:
Good writers (Moore, Gaiman, Veitch, Ellis, Morrison, off the top of my head) have occasionally produced good work while laboring under this model, but that doesn't in any way alter its fundamental facts.
Nothing happened on screen. A conversation between Terry and Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond suggested that she and Bruce might have a thing going on at some point, but pretty much left it at that, and with that knowledge, a conversation in the Mystery of Batwoman (or more specifically the way it was delivered) seems to corroborate the idea. Mind you, I do think that was a bad call to make, but that's likely what inspired the decision.Captain Marvelous said:
Sounds gross and token. Like why not just have Bruce fucking Dick and Tim? 'cause you know, its like tots mature.
I don't have a problem with it. I grew up with the DCAU.
Plus considering the very nature of Batman why WOULDN'T his relationship with Barbra get to that point? He's a damaged loner, shes a young girl that idolizes him. It's fucked up, but it's a fucked up world. I don't see how anyone can point a finger and say this is somehow not okay to do thematically but... say, adopting orphan boys and allow them to put their lives in danger fighting mobs and pyschopathic clowns is okay. Like I love Batman, but part of his deal that he is fucked in the head and his relationships beyond alfred aren't really healthy.
And furthermore, this was never gonna be a feminist vehicle away. She's little more than a prop in this story, so may as well just get most out of it. Gives Batman more motivation and creates conflict between Batman and Gordon. Some might say thats a problem to correct, I don't though. I don't think everything needs to get the SJ-Filter treatment, sometimes it is nice just to watch something problematic. Like I can acknowledge Frank Millar can't write women well at all, but also still enjoy watching Sin City.
Plus considering the very nature of Batman why WOULDN'T his relationship with Barbra get to that point? He's a damaged loner, shes a young girl that idolizes him. It's fucked up, but it's a fucked up world. I don't see how anyone can point a finger and say this is somehow not okay to do thematically but... say, adopting orphan boys and allow them to put their lives in danger fighting mobs and pyschopathic clowns is okay. Like I love Batman, but part of his deal that he is fucked in the head and his relationships beyond alfred aren't really healthy.
And furthermore, this was never gonna be a feminist vehicle away. She's little more than a prop in this story, so may as well just get most out of it. Gives Batman more motivation and creates conflict between Batman and Gordon. Some might say thats a problem to correct, I don't though. I don't think everything needs to get the SJ-Filter treatment, sometimes it is nice just to watch something problematic. Like I can acknowledge Frank Millar can't write women well at all, but also still enjoy watching Sin City.
She was like in college by that point, and it was also part of the reason Nightwing and Batman didn't get along as well after splitting up, because they both dated her.Captain Marvelous said:
Sidenote: I don't get where everyone is getting this Father/Daughter relationship from her and Bats. How? Gordon was totally already a good father figure in her life, it's not like she ever needed a surrogate.
Yeah, but apparently there's a comic that continues after Batman Beyond ends. In the comic, the relationship between Barbara and Bruce is all too real and she's cheating and Dick. Bruce gets her pregnant and he decides to tell Dick about the relationship and the pregnancy. Dick gets pissed off, obviously, and proceeds to beat on Bruce. Meanwhile, the ever heroic Barbara runs off to stop a mugging and apparently suffers a miscarriage. So yeah, TAS Bruce is a jackass... Is what I would say if comics were canon, but clearly they aren't. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha... haha... ha...Asita said:
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...Captain Marvelous said:Yeah, but apparently there's a comic that continues after Batman Beyond ends. In the comic, the relationship between Barbara and Bruce is all too real and she's cheating and Dick. Bruce gets her pregnant and he decides to tell Dick about the relationship and the pregnancy. Dick gets pissed off, obviously, and proceeds to beat on Bruce. Meanwhile, the ever heroic Barbara runs off to stop a mugging and apparently suffers a miscarriage. So yeah, TAS Bruce is a jackass... Is what I would say if comics were canon, but clearly they aren't. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha... haha... ha...Asita said:
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No.
Yeah... from what I can see most people think the idea of Bruce and Barbra being a thing is pretty squicky. Its a combination of the age difference, the fact that she idolized him enough to name her crime fighting persona after him, that she's one of Batmans best friend's daughter, and that she has dated his adopted son. There is just a lot that would get in the way of Bruce banging Barbra. And its not like he's hard up for female attention anyway. You'd think that Catwoman or Talia would be both physically and mentally simulating enough that he wouldn't care even if Barbara revealed that she had a crush on him. He's supposed to be the guy that is in control at all times. Catwoman getting his goat I can understand, but Batgirl? No offence to Barbra but there is no way after finding out that she's Gordon's daughter that she wasn't branded into his brain as a little kid.
The addition of them having a thing to the Killing Joke story line does nothing. If folks thought the complaining about Barabra being fridged was bad before, now she is a love interest as well as someones daughter.They just made her a more blatant plot device.
The addition of them having a thing to the Killing Joke story line does nothing. If folks thought the complaining about Barabra being fridged was bad before, now she is a love interest as well as someones daughter.They just made her a more blatant plot device.