Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS

[Ogoid]

The thing that gets me about all the "controversies" surrounding TKJ, quite frankly, is how little an understanding of the workings behind your typical superhero comic people - in many cases, people like Gail "Women in Refrigerators" Simone, who have actually worked in the medium - seem to have.

A superhero is first and foremost an IP and a brand, a name and a likeness - to wit, those of the character on the cover. Its single purpose is to make its parent company's shareholders as much money as possible.

Given that, it's fairly obvious that everything in any of said characters' fictional universe is going to revolve around, and be essentially no more than props to keep interest in, these characters. Secondary characters are no exception, nor can I think of a single logical reason why they should be.

If you have an issue with that model then perhaps you might want to widen your reading horizons. There's plenty of fiction, commercial and otherwise, that doesn't operate under it, really.

 

[Don Incognito]

snip

So the shit writing is a feature, not a bug?

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Sounds a lot like the creator doesn't really give a damn about their work or their characters any more. Pity really. But such is the entropy of entertainment.

 

[Ogoid]

snip

So the shit writing is a feature, not a bug?

Conceivably, although I don't really believe there's any "shit writing" to be found anywhere near Moore's TKJ (can't say the same for this movie since I haven't seen it).

Good writers (Moore, Gaiman, Veitch, Ellis, Morrison, off the top of my head) have occasionally produced good work while laboring under this model, but that doesn't in any way alter its fundamental facts.

 

[Asita]

Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.

Nothing happened on screen. A conversation between Terry and Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond suggested that she and Bruce might have a thing going on at some point, but pretty much left it at that, and with that knowledge, a conversation in the Mystery of Batwoman (or more specifically the way it was delivered) seems to corroborate the idea. Mind you, I do think that was a bad call to make, but that's likely what inspired the decision.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Sounds gross and token. Like why not just have Bruce fucking Dick and Tim? 'cause you know, its like tots mature.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I don't have a problem with it. I grew up with the DCAU.

Plus considering the very nature of Batman why WOULDN'T his relationship with Barbra get to that point? He's a damaged loner, shes a young girl that idolizes him. It's fucked up, but it's a fucked up world. I don't see how anyone can point a finger and say this is somehow not okay to do thematically but... say, adopting orphan boys and allow them to put their lives in danger fighting mobs and pyschopathic clowns is okay. Like I love Batman, but part of his deal that he is fucked in the head and his relationships beyond alfred aren't really healthy.

And furthermore, this was never gonna be a feminist vehicle away. She's little more than a prop in this story, so may as well just get most out of it. Gives Batman more motivation and creates conflict between Batman and Gordon. Some might say thats a problem to correct, I don't though. I don't think everything needs to get the SJ-Filter treatment, sometimes it is nice just to watch something problematic. Like I can acknowledge Frank Millar can't write women well at all, but also still enjoy watching Sin City.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

As I suspected, much like the comic, the film is going to be one of the greatest crimes against Barbra Gordon. I was already not going to see it because I suspected they'd be sticking really closely to the source material, but this revelation is... disheartening.

Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.

She was like in college by that point, and it was also part of the reason Nightwing and Batman didn't get along as well after splitting up, because they both dated her.

Sidenote: I don't get where everyone is getting this Father/Daughter relationship from her and Bats. How? Gordon was totally already a good father figure in her life, it's not like she ever needed a surrogate.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.

Nothing happened on screen. A conversation between Terry and Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond suggested that she and Bruce might have a thing going on at some point, but pretty much left it at that, and with that knowledge, a conversation in the Mystery of Batwoman (or more specifically the way it was delivered) seems to corroborate the idea. Mind you, I do think that was a bad call to make, but that's likely what inspired the decision.

Yeah, but apparently there's a comic that continues after Batman Beyond ends. In the comic, the relationship between Barbara and Bruce is all too real and she's cheating and Dick. Bruce gets her pregnant and he decides to tell Dick about the relationship and the pregnancy. Dick gets pissed off, obviously, and proceeds to beat on Bruce. Meanwhile, the ever heroic Barbara runs off to stop a mugging and apparently suffers a miscarriage. So yeah, TAS Bruce is a jackass... Is what I would say if comics were canon, but clearly they aren't. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha... haha... ha...


[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]comicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanon[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Spoiler: Barbara telling Bruce

Spoiler: Bruce telling Dick

Spoiler: And they all lived happily ever after

 

[DefunctTheory]

Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.

Nothing happened on screen. A conversation between Terry and Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond suggested that she and Bruce might have a thing going on at some point, but pretty much left it at that, and with that knowledge, a conversation in the Mystery of Batwoman (or more specifically the way it was delivered) seems to corroborate the idea. Mind you, I do think that was a bad call to make, but that's likely what inspired the decision.

Yeah, but apparently there's a comic that continues after Batman Beyond ends. In the comic, the relationship between Barbara and Bruce is all too real and she's cheating and Dick. Bruce gets her pregnant and he decides to tell Dick about the relationship and the pregnancy. Dick gets pissed off, obviously, and proceeds to beat on Bruce. Meanwhile, the ever heroic Barbara runs off to stop a mugging and apparently suffers a miscarriage. So yeah, TAS Bruce is a jackass... Is what I would say if comics were canon, but clearly they aren't. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha... haha... ha...

Spoiler

[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]comicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanon[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Spoiler: Barbara telling Bruce

Spoiler: Bruce telling Dick

Spoiler: And they all lived happily ever after

...

...

...

No.

 

[mecegirl]

Yeah... from what I can see most people think the idea of Bruce and Barbra being a thing is pretty squicky. Its a combination of the age difference, the fact that she idolized him enough to name her crime fighting persona after him, that she's one of Batmans best friend's daughter, and that she has dated his adopted son. There is just a lot that would get in the way of Bruce banging Barbra. And its not like he's hard up for female attention anyway. You'd think that Catwoman or Talia would be both physically and mentally simulating enough that he wouldn't care even if Barbara revealed that she had a crush on him. He's supposed to be the guy that is in control at all times. Catwoman getting his goat I can understand, but Batgirl? No offence to Barbra but there is no way after finding out that she's Gordon's daughter that she wasn't branded into his brain as a little kid.

The addition of them having a thing to the Killing Joke story line does nothing. If folks thought the complaining about Barabra being fridged was bad before, now she is a love interest as well as someones daughter.They just made her a more blatant plot device.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Never take comics seriously palbert. They're usually the bottom rung of writers crafting whatever melodrama they need make to sell copies, regardless of canon or character continuity. That's why every 5 years they do a complete reboot of everything and start fresh with a whole new slate of terrible ideas.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's a comic where Dick gets Bruce pregnant and Barbara beats him up over it.

 

[Asita]

Also, what is this about Barbara and Bruce dating in the animated series? Dear god, I feel like my childhood just got kicked in the nads.

Nothing happened on screen. A conversation between Terry and Commissioner Gordon in Batman Beyond suggested that she and Bruce might have a thing going on at some point, but pretty much left it at that, and with that knowledge, a conversation in the Mystery of Batwoman (or more specifically the way it was delivered) seems to corroborate the idea. Mind you, I do think that was a bad call to make, but that's likely what inspired the decision.

Yeah, but apparently there's a comic that continues after Batman Beyond ends. In the comic, the relationship between Barbara and Bruce is all too real and she's cheating and Dick. Bruce gets her pregnant and he decides to tell Dick about the relationship and the pregnancy. Dick gets pissed off, obviously, and proceeds to beat on Bruce. Meanwhile, the ever heroic Barbara runs off to stop a mugging and apparently suffers a miscarriage. So yeah, TAS Bruce is a jackass... Is what I would say if comics were canon, but clearly they aren't. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha... haha... ha...


[sub][sub][sub][sub][sub]comicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanoncomicbooksarenotcanon[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Spoiler: Barbara telling Bruce

Spoiler: Bruce telling Dick

Spoiler: And they all lived happily ever after

Spoiler: *Ahem*

Honestly, I could stand Beyond's suggestion of it, because it dove just enough into it to touch on how dysfunctional the Bat-Family became over the years before it ultimately fell apart (somewhat of a recurring theme in the series) while leaving it mostly out of sight...but that? Waaaay more detail than that idea ever needed.

 

[Erttheking]

So their idea to make Batgirl more of an entity where her main purpose was to get shot to make other people feel bad...is to give her a creepy, possibly statutory rape depending on the state borderline incestuous relationship with Batman? So in other words, her purpose is still to get shot so that other people feel bad, but with the added purpose of emasculating Batman. You know, as opposed to doing something interesting like having Batman be brutalized and depowered. But when will that ever happen? What's that? Court of Owls? PFFFFFT!

Christ, no wonder Alan Moore doesn't like this comic anymore.

 

[DefunctTheory]

SNIP

Never take comics seriously palbert. They're usually the bottom rung of writers crafting whatever melodrama they need make to sell copies, regardless of canon or character continuity. That's why every 5 years they do a complete reboot of everything and start fresh with a whole new slate of terrible ideas.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's a comic where Dick gets Bruce pregnant and Barbara beats him up over it.

I know all that, but just... still...

It's a new low for me, comics wise. I suppose that's my fault, with my emotional investment in the DCAU.

 

[Zhukov]

Huh.

I've read The Killing Joke. Quite recently. Wasn't too impressed.

I do not recall that being in there.

 

[mecegirl]

Huh.

I've read The Killing Joke. Quite recently. Wasn't too impressed.

I do not recall that being in there.

That's cuz it wasn't. This is something special they added to pad out the movie based on the comic. It was never even hinted at in the comic itself. Its simply not canon to the comic at all.