Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS
- Thread starter SirSullymore
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I've been giving it some thought, and there's a more generous interpretation of the "why", and it basically would boil down to trying to change things up a bit from the events of Under the Red Hood and Return of the Joker (And War Games[footnote]I think...was that the one where Steph got the "sidekick hazard treatment"?[/footnote] if we want to count the comics). Ward 1 gets tortured and killed, Ward 2 gets tortured and brainwashed, Ward 3 gets tortured and crippled...it's the same song and dance for Batman each time and the producers may have felt the need to change things up for the Killing Joke by suggesting that they were closer to peers than father-figure and ward. Mind you, I maintain that it was a bad call regardless, but that does provide a competing hypothesis for the 'why' behind it.Orga777 said:
It's not the sexuality that's controversial (the same implied-rape was in the original comic). It's the fact that the writers had thirty minutes or so of new material to fill out Batman and Batgirl's character, and they jumped straight to "and they're banging, so Batman can be double-plus-mad at the Joker."Shinclone said:
It's not a cardinal sin, but it is pretty lazy writing. Batman can have an emotional investment in another character without also investing his dick.
Me, I'm not bothered by it. But I can see why some other people are bothered by it.
Man this is a pretty savage review of Killing Joke
Did anyone see it can anyone confirm because it definitely doesn't make me too keen on ever watching it
http://www.newyorker.com/daily-comment/the-sudden-but-well-deserved-fall-of-rahm-emanuel?mbid=social_facebook
I wish Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill had lent their voices to the Dark Knight Returns instead
Did anyone see it can anyone confirm because it definitely doesn't make me too keen on ever watching it
http://www.newyorker.com/daily-comment/the-sudden-but-well-deserved-fall-of-rahm-emanuel?mbid=social_facebook
I wish Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill had lent their voices to the Dark Knight Returns instead
Oh, it's not just the sex, though that does disgust me in almost every way. It's why they included it. I get that they wanted to pad the movie out a little, but they went ahead and took the role that Barbara originally had in the comic (You know? The victim!) and somehow made it worse. So now she's the victim and the love interest! The sex scene is added to establish a more intimate relationship between Babs and Bruce. But... why? Was their non-sexual relationship really not good enough? Does the new status quo add anything to the story? No. It doesn't. The rest of the adaptation remains unchanged by this relationship and would be the same without it. It's actually rather insulting that the sex scene is added solely so Bruce can have more of a reason to be pissed at the Joker, because avenging a close friend and ally just isn't enough.Davroth said:
All in an attempt to come off as "Dark", "Serious", and "Mature", but, honestly, it comes off as some teenager's terrible fan-fiction. So edge.
Yeah, but that's something that the original was accused of as well, so it really isn't all that controversial. At least, no more than the comic.Shinclone said:
I'm sorry, what? How is she the love interest? Did we watch the same movie? Just because two people have sex doesn't mean they are going to marry and raise kids in suburbs. They just banged. And it's far from the first time that there was implied sexual tension between the two, I used to read a lot of comics, there was always that undertone. What is gross about two consenting adults having sex? Explain yourself.Captain Marvelous said:
Nowhere did the movie state that Barbara was a motivation for Bruce to hate the Joker. If that was the case, the ending would make a lot less sense. He never brings Barbara into it, it's about the Joker and Batman, and actually nobody else. He's not acting like someone driven by revenge for his love interest, at all.
The writer of the comic has already stated way back that the Joker didn't rape Barbara. That discussion is moot.
So I take it this is what's getting so many panties in a twist?
Yeah, sex, whatever. I'm more interested in that edgy, edgy dialogue.
"You haven't been taken to the edge yet. Of the abyss. The place where you don't care anymore. Where all hope dies. Darkness. No parents."
(Damn it, somebody beat me to it.)
Yeah, sex, whatever. I'm more interested in that edgy, edgy dialogue.
"You haven't been taken to the edge yet. Of the abyss. The place where you don't care anymore. Where all hope dies. Darkness. No parents."
(Damn it, somebody beat me to it.)
Ha. Exactly what I said it was and why it makes sense. Batman is Bojack Horseman level broken.Zhukov said:
The only thing that would of made that scene better is if she had placed his hand on her hip for him.
Also, is that Tara Strong? Cause I'm getting total Twilight Sparkles vibe.
I don't get why on one hand we want women to be strong but on the other as soon as they use their strength to do something we disapprove of we deem them weak malleable playthings at the hands of the man in their life who is taking advantage of their womanly dumbs. In fact, being strong entails being free to make any choices, even choosing submissive vulnerability. The importance is that one is allowed to choose, not what they choose.
And to the ones who say that it is the writers, not her, making the choosing. Yes, welcome to fiction. Same goes for whatever other character, including the strong women that you like. They, too, are written by a writer and designed to tickle someone's fancy in some way. Sometimes its yours, sometimes it isn't, the fact that a writer and not the character makes the choices, however, is ubiquitous. To point it out only here so as to discredit this choice, purely because you dislike it, is intellectually dishonest.
And to the ones who say that it is the writers, not her, making the choosing. Yes, welcome to fiction. Same goes for whatever other character, including the strong women that you like. They, too, are written by a writer and designed to tickle someone's fancy in some way. Sometimes its yours, sometimes it isn't, the fact that a writer and not the character makes the choices, however, is ubiquitous. To point it out only here so as to discredit this choice, purely because you dislike it, is intellectually dishonest.
I don't think it's the sex scene itself is what is getting people mad. It's a combination of the fact that Bruce Wayne can most likely be tried for statutory rape, that he's always been a sort of father figure to Barbra and Dick so this is kind of creepy, and the fact that in the end this was only put in the movie to double down on the Women in Refrigerator trope. In the original comic Barbra's only purpose was to get shot and crippled to torment her father and Batman, and now they're adding another layer to it.Zhukov said:
It's just...LAZY!
EDIT: And before anyone says anything I know that they had a relationship in Batman Beyond but A. they were both much older then and B. everyone hated it then too.
Yeaaaah, I know.erttheking said:
I'm just incapable of getting my dander up over a couple of cartoon characters engaging in some off-screen fucking. It's an adaption I have no investment in of a story I was unimpressed by featuring a character I don't care about who has been portrayed in many ways by many different people. Throw this one on the pile.
I get the argument. In the original story the sole female character was only there to suffer and drive the conflict between three men. (Or die to advance the story of a male in the case of Joker's wife, if she actually existed.) They try to flesh out her role in the animated adapted and end up just doubling down on the "error" of the original by having her exist to fuck the male lead then suffer to drive the conflict blah de blah de blah.
I get it.
But I have no intention of dying on this sad little hill.
So, after seeing the movie.
... That's what people were getting upset about?
I mean, yeah, the movie was pretty "Meh" overall, and the whole "Killing Joke" thing is something people are pretty aware of at this stage, so, there's very little that people who know much about Batman are going to be surprised by.
So, I guess when you consider that, it makes sense they play to the whole Batman and Barbra having a fling, but, it's a pretty minor point in the storyline and doesn't really serve much in the way of Batman's motivation. If anything, he seems to not really care much. But, It's Batman, he's not supposed to be emotional. So, he isn't.
In regards to Barbra being raped and that whole thing. It's The Killing Joke. The joker is a murderer, there's nothing redeemable or above him. You're supposed to hate him, you're not supposed to say, "Oh, well, how dare he! That's real awful of him". Yeah, no shit.
So, I mean, even as somebody who's not hardcore into Batman and so on, nothing unexpected.
I was pretty surprised to see Barbra assault a guy for saying he needed space from his girlfriend. Holy shit Barbra, you're supposed to be one of the good guys.
... That's what people were getting upset about?
I mean, yeah, the movie was pretty "Meh" overall, and the whole "Killing Joke" thing is something people are pretty aware of at this stage, so, there's very little that people who know much about Batman are going to be surprised by.
So, I guess when you consider that, it makes sense they play to the whole Batman and Barbra having a fling, but, it's a pretty minor point in the storyline and doesn't really serve much in the way of Batman's motivation. If anything, he seems to not really care much. But, It's Batman, he's not supposed to be emotional. So, he isn't.
In regards to Barbra being raped and that whole thing. It's The Killing Joke. The joker is a murderer, there's nothing redeemable or above him. You're supposed to hate him, you're not supposed to say, "Oh, well, how dare he! That's real awful of him". Yeah, no shit.
So, I mean, even as somebody who's not hardcore into Batman and so on, nothing unexpected.
I was pretty surprised to see Barbra assault a guy for saying he needed space from his girlfriend. Holy shit Barbra, you're supposed to be one of the good guys.
Just another disappointing DC Animated movie. Nothing out of the ordinary since Justice League War.
How can this be?!circularlogic88 said:
Bruce Timm worked on this?!
Oh wait he is only producer....Brian Arazello is the screenwriter and Sam Liu is the director.
Am I the only one disappointed by how half-assed the sex scene itself was?
I mean we literally got to see maybe 2 seconds of Barbara in a bra and that's it. Come on, they could've shown so much more...I mean if you're going there, might as well commit to it.
I mean we literally got to see maybe 2 seconds of Barbara in a bra and that's it. Come on, they could've shown so much more...I mean if you're going there, might as well commit to it.
No that was fine, nobody is making a deal out of it. A girl should be able to let off some steam if she wants to. It's empowering.The Lunatic said: