Really the only thing I thought was really dumb was the obvious twist with Kreia, but then again KOTOR 1 has the same problem with the main character.
KotOR: II
- Thread starter WillSimplyBe
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I am still waiting for the TSL Restoration Project. KotOR 2 was a good game, but plot had holes like swiss cheese and until we see an un-cut, restored, fully playable version of the game it will never compare to the Original KotOR.
And I hated what they did to MY Revan. Oh, buggered off outside the galaxy did he? I don't think so! MY Revan was a master of the darkside! He would have conquered the galaxy with the Star Forge! The Republic was crippled. Taking it would have been EASY. There is no way MY Revan, regardless of what threat lay outside the galaxy, would have stopped when victory was so near.
And I hated what they did to MY Revan. Oh, buggered off outside the galaxy did he? I don't think so! MY Revan was a master of the darkside! He would have conquered the galaxy with the Star Forge! The Republic was crippled. Taking it would have been EASY. There is no way MY Revan, regardless of what threat lay outside the galaxy, would have stopped when victory was so near.
@Woodsey
*cracks nuckles*
Hmm, I see what your saying, but at the same time, I disagree with your outlook on the characters.
Comparing Handmaiden, a gender triggered accomplice in your mission that wont even JOIN if you have a y chromosome, to the heroine of the first game is rather stilted. If you notice, I wont even talk about her or Apprentice. Actually though, if i remember correctly, both Revan AND the Outcast are canonically FEMALE, so Handmaiden is completely out of canon. I compare Visas <3 more to Juhani, as both of them have taken a walk on the dark side, and as far as just about everything concerning the two of them, Visas Marr <3 could kick Juhani's butt any day of the week.
I also found Bastilla rather annoying, with her whole, "I'm so awesome, I can battle meditate and everything is up to me" snobbery.
I will give you that Kreia was a somewhat annoying character to have on the team, since you kind of get the feeling that talking to her is an exercise in futility, since she gets some sick pleasure in playing mindgames with everyone, and her only responses to your views are "I like you More, Your a bloody twit, or Your an idealistic fool." Which led to me leaving her to wander about the Ebon Hawk more often than not.
But really, other than Kreia, and hanhaar(that was the other woookie), I must say that every other character was great, and their storylines were better. Visas Marr <3 had great story. Especially her redemption, and her showdown with Darth Nihilus was great. She was, In my opinion, the most developed, and possibly best, supporting character in KotOR II.
I dont think you can really say that the characters were bad when all you did was compare handmaiden to Bastilla, you didn't really give any examples or points to your argument there, other than droids.
My response, good sir.
*EDIT*
@Woodsey
lol, its cool, I've written a few full blown essays here as well, I dont fully disagree with your views, but I do love a bit of "Point, Counterpoint."
*cracks nuckles*
Hmm, I see what your saying, but at the same time, I disagree with your outlook on the characters.
Comparing Handmaiden, a gender triggered accomplice in your mission that wont even JOIN if you have a y chromosome, to the heroine of the first game is rather stilted. If you notice, I wont even talk about her or Apprentice. Actually though, if i remember correctly, both Revan AND the Outcast are canonically FEMALE, so Handmaiden is completely out of canon. I compare Visas <3 more to Juhani, as both of them have taken a walk on the dark side, and as far as just about everything concerning the two of them, Visas Marr <3 could kick Juhani's butt any day of the week.
I also found Bastilla rather annoying, with her whole, "I'm so awesome, I can battle meditate and everything is up to me" snobbery.
I will give you that Kreia was a somewhat annoying character to have on the team, since you kind of get the feeling that talking to her is an exercise in futility, since she gets some sick pleasure in playing mindgames with everyone, and her only responses to your views are "I like you More, Your a bloody twit, or Your an idealistic fool." Which led to me leaving her to wander about the Ebon Hawk more often than not.
But really, other than Kreia, and hanhaar(that was the other woookie), I must say that every other character was great, and their storylines were better. Visas Marr <3 had great story. Especially her redemption, and her showdown with Darth Nihilus was great. She was, In my opinion, the most developed, and possibly best, supporting character in KotOR II.
I dont think you can really say that the characters were bad when all you did was compare handmaiden to Bastilla, you didn't really give any examples or points to your argument there, other than droids.
My response, good sir.
*EDIT*
@Woodsey
lol, its cool, I've written a few full blown essays here as well, I dont fully disagree with your views, but I do love a bit of "Point, Counterpoint."
Well...that is the Star Wars canon...him being light side and then buggering off. To not fuck up the timeline, they had to make him do that anyway. That said, the threat of imminent destruction will make people do all sorts of weird stuff. Like leave and martyr yourself.DarkLordofDevon said:
Revan is male.WillSimplyBe said:
I think the main reason that people prefer the original is, like you mentioned, the huge plot twist. That was some pretty epic storytelling. Because of that, people forget how drab and unoriginal the rest of the game's story was. In KOTOR II I actually felt a sense of urgency in recreating the jedi order before this triad of Sith took over. Also, the fact that you were a puppet for the Sith lord was a great turn in a good storyline. To touch on the topic of bugs and glitches, I personally never ran into any terrible ones in my many runs through KOTOR II but hit at least two gamebreaking (as in, have to start over cuz the save doesn't work anymore) glitches in the first one.
Well I'll be happy to engage in some "point, counterpoint, counterpointpoint, etc."WillSimplyBe said:
First off, Revan is canononically male you fiend! And yes I know whilst not canon, that shouldn't be an excuse of putting any less effort into a character - especially one that was tied very closely to important points of the game. Light Side choices are canon in both games, but you don't want a downgraded experience just because you play on the dark side, do you?
If by Visas and Juhani being similar you mean they were both annoying and dull then yes, you would be correct
Seriously though I hated Juhani and Visas I felt was just boring. The connection she had to Nihilus was seriously under played (as was every aspect of him).The reason I liked Bastila was for the exact reason you disliked her funnily enough, I felt as if her character had a progression - something which many characters in KotOR 2 didn't have. Yes she was a brat, but that portrayal was spot-on! She's young, but with an exceptional talent and with a lot of pressure on her - that would make many people act cocky and snobbish.
I think the characters in KotOR 2 create more of an illusion as to being more well rounded with the use of the gimmicky influence system - it really didn't need to be there, and you could miss entire chunks of the game unless you licked everyone's arse. The first game was more structured - you learnt more about people simply by gaining levels and making sure you spoke to them often. In KotOR 2 conversations felt like a mini-game; having to replay them over and over until you say the right thing and gain influence.
Again this amplified Kreia being annoying; even in a game, it's annoying to agree with views that you feel are stupid just to find out tit-bits about something. I don't mind the crypticness of her character (at times I enjoyed it), but in this case it was overused and poorly implemented.
I think I came across wrong about the characters. If I said they weren't bad, just not as good would that make it clearer? I was just trying to match a few that I felt were similar in characteristics. And don't discriminate against the droids (especially HK-47 you meat bag) they were implied to play a very important role and in the end were underplayed again I felt.
GO-TO was just a stupid character and that's that. Canderous was so prolific I thought in the first game, and him and Revan had a bond of respect for each other - I suppose that was another problem that I felt; you felt as if you were only there to be a sidekick to a better and more powerful character that you'd already played.
Atton Rand I must admit was a very interesting character, and would of been someone who I would of been happy to see appear in either game - very well written and very well acted. He had a dark back story, but he was layered so that he just acted like he didn't care about anything. This was something similar to Carth who blamed himself about his family's death (his wife's at least) and the betrayal of Saul Karath. He became different to hide it.
I just enjoyed finding out about the characters in the first game, and found them to be better written and performed then those in KotOR 2.
By the way, quote me if you want to talk about it or I may never know you've replied!
If it had spent another 6 months in development, KotOR 2 could have been one of the best games of all time. As it is, however, it feels rough, incomplete, and very very rushed.
I love Kreia, she is one of my favorite characters from any game. But the rest of the supporting characters (aside from Atton, who was somewhat interesting) felt tacked on and unnecessary--even HK-47, when you finally repair him (right at the end of the game...) lost his charm. And Visas could have been so interesting if Nihilus had ever actually been used in the plot in any significant way.
The cut content was removed in such a clumsy and imprecise way that it leaves just enough tantalizing hints of what you're missing to make you resent them for not including it.
Honestly, I had a big problem with the setting, too. By now having the Jedi Order at the brink of extinction is a bit cliche, don't you think? The explanation was particularly weak "Oh yeah we disbanded the Jedi Order to draw the Sith out of hiding." WTF?
I love Kreia, she is one of my favorite characters from any game. But the rest of the supporting characters (aside from Atton, who was somewhat interesting) felt tacked on and unnecessary--even HK-47, when you finally repair him (right at the end of the game...) lost his charm. And Visas could have been so interesting if Nihilus had ever actually been used in the plot in any significant way.
The cut content was removed in such a clumsy and imprecise way that it leaves just enough tantalizing hints of what you're missing to make you resent them for not including it.
Honestly, I had a big problem with the setting, too. By now having the Jedi Order at the brink of extinction is a bit cliche, don't you think? The explanation was particularly weak "Oh yeah we disbanded the Jedi Order to draw the Sith out of hiding." WTF?
I played both games, and KotOR 2 seems a lot more well-rounded and fleshed out to me. It's one of my favorite games. I love the characters, love the plot, love the gameplay.
I loved both games about the same. The Sith Lords' story wasn't as good as the first though but the design was.
Hmm, it appears you are right, my mistake, lol.dstryfe said:
also TOTALLY unrelated, but I want to say it anyway, I always disliked the good/evil system in KotOR. Let me rephrase that... I disliked the BENEFITS of it. Most lightside exclusives were useless on 2/3rds of all enemies or just worse in general. It was like you couldn't really be an offensive force user on the light side and like you... Wait- I smell new thread... *runs*
molester jester said:
I'm glad there's at least a couple of others willing to defend the first with me.Vuljatar said:
Also, the first had Jolee Bindo - one of my very favourite characters in, well, anything! Charming, funny and with a very interesting backstory, it was fun to talk to him and I seriously wanted to know more about him as soon as I possibly could.
If KOTOR 2 had been finished properly (six months of extra polish would have probably done it), it might have been even better than Bioware's masterpiece. The game's interface was considerably improved and made for less clunky combat, but... well, we all know what happened to the game.
Unfinished, full of bugs, several quests had no ending, terrible ending, and there was glaring evidence that they had planned for an entire extra planet to explore. I also believe that the ending at Malachor was supposed to be a "all hell breaks loose" sort of deal, but... yeah, it was a complete anticlimax.
For this game, I refuse to buy anything by Obsidian.
And one more thing...
Unfinished, full of bugs, several quests had no ending, terrible ending, and there was glaring evidence that they had planned for an entire extra planet to explore. I also believe that the ending at Malachor was supposed to be a "all hell breaks loose" sort of deal, but... yeah, it was a complete anticlimax.
For this game, I refuse to buy anything by Obsidian.
And one more thing...
You fail at basic genetics (males are XY, females XX). The Handmaiden was the character you got if you played a male character. Disciple was if you were a female character.WillSimplyBe said:
I loved both KotOR games, but my heart lies with the second. It was the first Xbox game I played and it's one of the few games from -2005 I still play occasionally. The characters are much more human, and reveal more about themselves throughout the game. Rather than Mass Effect's "Ohay, let's take the five minute elevator to get a two minute chat to learn they have relatives!" The setting is fantastic, the atmosphere is killer, though the ending is a stub the majority of the game well makes up for that.
There is only one thing, ONE THING I HATE about this game. Cookie to he that guesses it.
There is only one thing, ONE THING I HATE about this game. Cookie to he that guesses it.
Not MY Revan. The options that KotOR gave cast my Revan as a cruel Tyrannical ruler with no empathy for any living creature. Why would he martyr himself? Also, how many years would it have taken to conquer the galaxy, considering the Jedi and Republic are crippled from the Assault on the Star Forge, and the Star Forge is full operational producing unlimited amounts of reinforcements? A decade at most, taking all planets of value within the Republic and the Core Worlds leaving nowhere for the Senate to run.dstryfe said:
Now. Should Revan a) Flee the galaxy and hit the enemy head on with limited forces, no reinforcements and no hope of ever actually returning or b) Conquer the galaxy, use the other production facilities across the galaxy to boost his forces and then bunker down and let the enemy break against an impenetrable wall of unlimited reinforcements.
IT MAKES NO SENSE.
Even as a Jedi, leaving with no support, telling no one where he was going is just MORONIC and ARROGENT. Sparing people's lives is 1 thing. Being stupid enough to think you can face a menace alone with no aid, no way to call for help and no way to warn people if you fail is beyond believable. Revan must have been incredibly arrogent of his own abilities, or severly brain dead.
Either way, was not happy with that element of KotOR 2. If they had set is maybe 100, 200 years after Revan, when his Empire had crumbled and the Republic arisen again or after the Sith had been beaten back and Revan long since past away, that MAY have been believable.
That's a problem that most (if not all) morality meters in RPGs have. Although it was the same in both games I believe.WillSimplyBe said:
Going dark side gave you more strength I think , but going fully light side gave you more wisdom which influences your force points, so it balances it out - but the system is dated (and so it should be - these games were made 5/6 years ago).
Yeah. Because they're totally going to actually finish it. : / Just download the damn leak.ZeroMachine said:
EDIT: Oh, and, blahblah KOTOR2 is bettar