Ladies, how about you?

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Your argument that Witchers are fantasy is worthless.

Just because real life is filled with sexism doesn't mean a fantasy world has to be.

Wait what? I'm sorry but are you actually suggesting that all writers and artists and developers should no longer be able to utilize sexism?

I want to go into more detail but I just need to understand if that is what you are really suggesting here.

I think they are suggesting that just because medieval times had sexism a fantasy world with a medieval look to it doesn't have to.

I mean if it has dragons and magic why the hell is sexism the realism you need.

Fantasy is fantasy there aren't really any constraints on it. I disagree that this means sexism isn't allowed but when an author makes a choice to make women oppressed and then condone it I don't think I would be very impressed personally.

There are ways to do it right, like in dishonoured.

I can see what you mean. Listening to the women in the Golden Cat was disturbing. I do wonder about something like The Witcher, given the way that society is set up are Geralt's sexual escapades sexist since Witcher's like him do present women with the opportunity to have and enjoy sex without having to deal with things like child birth or disease? Are the escapades the problem or is it something else about Geralt?

I haven't played the Witcher 2 so I can't comment on that but in the first one the things that made me uncomfortable was A. The Conquest cards (suggesting women are some sort of pokemon collection )
B. The fact that female characters would pretty much change their personality just so the player could live vicariously through Geralt. As an example the Witch is pretty feisty and then she turns around and acts all swoony over him :S It's kind of juvenile and makes Geralt a bit of a Mary Sue.
C. The Women are treated poorly but you never really get the message that this is bad or that they are unhappy. It's just like the writer is saying 'Whoo hoo lads you can treat women how you want in this universe and they won't complain!' It rubs me the wrong way.

 

[shadow skill]

Your argument that Witchers are fantasy is worthless.

Just because real life is filled with sexism doesn't mean a fantasy world has to be.

Wait what? I'm sorry but are you actually suggesting that all writers and artists and developers should no longer be able to utilize sexism?

I want to go into more detail but I just need to understand if that is what you are really suggesting here.

I think they are suggesting that just because medieval times had sexism a fantasy world with a medieval look to it doesn't have to.

I mean if it has dragons and magic why the hell is sexism the realism you need.

Fantasy is fantasy there aren't really any constraints on it. I disagree that this means sexism isn't allowed but when an author makes a choice to make women oppressed and then condone it I don't think I would be very impressed personally.

There are ways to do it right, like in dishonoured.

I can see what you mean. Listening to the women in the Golden Cat was disturbing. I do wonder about something like The Witcher, given the way that society is set up are Geralt's sexual escapades sexist since Witcher's like him do present women with the opportunity to have and enjoy sex without having to deal with things like child birth or disease? Are the escapades the problem or is it something else about Geralt?

I haven't played the Witcher 2 so I can't comment on that but in the first one the things that made me uncomfortable was A. The Conquest cards (suggesting women are some sort of pokemon collection )
B. The fact that female characters would pretty much change their personality just so the player could live vicariously through Geralt. As an example the Witch is pretty feisty and then she turns around and acts all swoony over him :S It's kind of juvenile and makes Geralt a bit of a Mary Sue.
C. The Women are treated poorly but you never really get the message that this is bad or that they are unhappy. It's just like the writer is saying 'Whoo hoo lads you can treat women how you want in this universe and they won't complain!' It rubs me the wrong way.

I thought the same thing about the cards. I found that it did encourage me to try and get every woman I saw naked...Made me feel a bit guilty actually. I really should install it again and try and get through it. It was a pretty interesting game outside of that particular aspect.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It makes me wonder if those saying condoning sexism through games is okay that they think that racist game the kkk made is perfectly fine. Because it's the same thing at the end of the day.

 

[jehk]

That is why I mention the consumer desiring control or at the very least not wanting said content to exist even if the artist, developer, or writer wants it to exist.

I think you might be constructing a strawman. Material can contain sexism without it being sexist. Do you understand the nuance there? Sexist material shouldn't exist. Like I've said it has to do with condoning the sexism.

 

[APersonHere]

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's. Even Nehrim, the German total conversion to Oblivion that creates a now full-sized map and well-written 50-hour campaign, brings on a sense of depth and immersion that no true Elder Scrolls game has approached--in my opinion, of course.

(As a side note, although Oblivion never explicitly tells you so, male characters are physically stronger and have higher endurance while female characters have higher magical abilities. Similarly, in Shivering Islands you had the two matriarchal races in which the males of the population were second-class citizens.)

Having a medieval themed game should not automatically mean sexism and if it does it shouldn't condone it.

Of course not automatically. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. I haven't played any of the Witcher games or know anything about that universe, but what I'm arguing is that there are settings in which it makes sense that sexism / racism influences who can become what--at least in the eyes of society.

 

[jehk]

That is why I mention the consumer desiring control or at the very least not wanting said content to exist even if the artist, developer, or writer wants it to exist.

I think you might be constructing a strawman. Material can contain sexism without it being sexist. Do you understand the nuance there? Sexist material shouldn't exist. Like I've said it has to do with condoning the sexism.

But without sexist or offensive content you wouldn't have content that would enable writers or artists or developers to have another avenue to work with especially if they wish to create content that engages with that material. I mean hell if content like racism or sexism or any offensive content shouldn't exist then you wouldn't even have the X-Men. There would be millions of movies, television shows, books, poems, and even music that wouldn't exist without that offensive content.

Do you understand that from an artistic point of view how limiting it can be if an artist couldn't express oneself because the content they want to create has to do with sexism or other offensive material?

People are offended by pornography and erotic material. Could you imagine what the world would be like if artists weren't able to create erotic material or pornography?

Like I said this is a pretty big strawman and its getting kinda ridiculous now. So, sexist material should exist so other people can produce material that deals with it? What kind of artist wants that?

Gee, I really hope Disney makes another movie like Song of the South so I can confront it in my upcoming tactical RPG.

The other option is for society to move on. Records of sexist material would continue to exist but their production would drop off substantially.

 

[jehk]

Except the crux of your argument is that certain content should not exist in all forms of art. Imagine if a person then did that with other things people find offensive? Do you really think art and humanity would be better off?

I never said all or any offensive material shouldn't exist. That's your strawman. Material being offensive is irrelevant.

Do you understand the difference between erotic material and sexist material? Take some time and think about it. Think about the affect both have on people and society. No. No. No. Don't respond. Think.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Wow I leave for a few days...

Saw some good points - Tenmar, can I throw in on the "allowed" and "not allowed" attitudes you're perceiving? I'm not against sexism being in a game - especially not if it's intentional and serves the story or a purpose, just like I'm not against racism being in literature if it's intentional and serves the story or a purpose. I mean, there's so much great literature that centers on racism and sexism and several other -isms that is absolutely informative about our culture and ripe for analysis and makes a statement - Art, in other words. So yes, video games, I think, should totally keep that creative door open and use it when the occasion arises. I, for one, would love to see games more consistently deliver meaningful ideas about the -isms of the world while still making enjoyable, consumable media.

What's not good, what I think we should be disapproving of - not banning, not censoring, but as an audience disapproving of, is unintentional -isms that perpetuate stereotypes, damaging generalizations, careless or cruel thinking without artistic value (being unintentional and lacking an artistic motive). In pretty much anything we consume, including video games.

I also think that the freedom of fiction is to choose (and I'm not just talking fantasy genre - all fictive art) what you want to portray, how realistic or historically accurate you desire to be in any facet. So, yes I think a video game about a woman who throws cars with one hand is fine - if that's the story, if that's the gameplay, if that's the artist's world. If not, then not.

What I think tends to bother the larger female game playing contingent is we don't see much of that end of the spectrum of creativity, we see other ends of the spectrum where we have heaving bosoms and wear silk underwear as armor rather frequently.

NOW - if in the artist's world silk ribbons are going to stop an arrow, well then that's their world I am not trying to stymie their creativity! I'm not going to buy their creation, if for that (or any other) reason it doesn't appeal to me personally, like I don't buy drapes in leopard pattern, because I detest animal prints. Someone wild about animal prints will no doubt pick up the slack, and I can stick to solid colors and florals. It would be great if some more game makers decided to go the other way on creativity and throw a chick a broadsword made of fire with 8" thick bone plate armor. No reason not to in an openly creative environment, right?

 

[jehk]

Except the crux of your argument is that certain content should not exist in all forms of art. Imagine if a person then did that with other things people find offensive? Do you really think art and humanity would be better off?

I never said all or any offensive material shouldn't exist. That's your strawman. Material being offensive is irrelevant.

Do you understand the difference between erotic material and sexist material? Take some time and think about it. Think about the affect both have on people and society. No. No. No. Don't respond. Think.

I am thinking and I just completely disagree with you on what you think should or should not be allowed when it comes to art and artistic expression. So don't be condescending to me or treat me as if I'm an idiot.

So you can answer my question then? Do you understand the difference between erotic material and sexist material including the affect it has on people and society? I'm not trying to be a jerk but I wonder how much thought you've given this if you're equating the two.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's.

You think it's less immersive because there is no sexism :/ or because of other reasons. Because I find that contradicts your later statement that it doesn't need to be sexist automatically.

There is no reason why a setting that has magic and monsters has to have women as the oppressed sex. It's kind of ridiculous.

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

 

[Headsprouter]

In a case of girl or guy choice, I'd rather play as a dude...

...or an alien.

...actually...anything but a human would be preferred! Bonus points if it's face is made of...if it doesn't have a face but rather a mouth with lots of sharp teeth! That's my favourite type of creature design! FACELESS!!!!

Excuse me. With the announcement of Rewind, Timesplitters has been on the mind a lot recently. I was referring to my avatar as one of my favourite designs ever. And I got to play as him in arcade mode!

So, yeah, in answer to the OP question, as a guy, in a guy/girl choice, I'd rather choose a male, or genderless of any race, species, etc...but I have no issues with playing as a girl if I have to, I just like the immersion of being like me. Or less like me. Dammit, I'm so conflicted!

Basically: the more or less it is like me, the better!

 

[jehk]

EDIT: I'm off to play Fire Emblem for the GC.

Not gonna answer my question huh? Hopefully it sticks with you. Have fun with Fire Emblem.

 

[Phasmal]

So yeah for the artist that wants to put all men in spandex on the battlefield. Yeah for all the developers that want to equip the women in full plate armor. Yeah for the writers that want to make something like drapes enchanted armor with a rose as the ultimate weapon against evil. It's all possible and all possibilities should be open for the artist to express.

I'm just going to point out that artists do not exist in a vacuum and examining why ladies are usually the spandexed-up ones is not saying it `shouldn't be allowed`. Artists benefit from constructive critical examination of their work.
I really don't think we should be afraid of criticizing the things we care about, unless you think there is no way games could improve.

And also I'm up at this ungodly hour because there is a big fuck-off spider in my room.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Snip

That you mention is the point I've been talking about. It should be the artists and developers choice and not that of the consumer. That is what I will respect if that is their vision and how they want their world, narrative and content to be. The thing is that since it is all fiction both can exist and there is no need to actually enforce one's morality on the artist because you don't like their vision. You simply don't buy the game or book or movie and move on.

Saying something should not exist at all in art as if a consumer should have control as to what exists is what boggles my mind. It's not like art are actual living beings that demand equal rights but merely are contained within the fictional realm where anything is possible for better or worse that can challenge our existing concepts as an artist could utilize their art to share how they perceive the world or a moment in their life.

So yeah for the artist that wants to put all men in spandex on the battlefield. Yeah for all the developers that want to equip the women in full plate armor. Yeah for the writers that want to make something like drapes enchanted armor with a rose as the ultimate weapon against evil. It's all possible and all possibilities should be open for the artist to express.

Then we're in accord. Wishing for more of one thing rather than another isn't a the same as trying to replace one thing with the other, but the line does get blurred when people get to feeling like they will never see what they're looking for in particular. People get depressed about it, people get anxious about it, people start to feel like it's what they want that's being made impossible by someone somewhere and retaliate. Not really the right response, but often the human one. I do wish creativity wasn't constrained by financial projections and corporate profit expectations and all the rest of it. Sometimes I think the ire is misdirected just because the invisible hand is invisible.