Ladies, how about you?

[CloudAtlas]

(...)

I'd say it was a dodgy choice to decide to have a men only faction just on histories sake alone. I mean surely that's just perpetuating mistakes of the past.

If a writer tells me that he has magic and monsters in his fantasy and then adds sexism because 'That's what it was like in medieval times' I'm going to raise an eyebrow.

I don't want to continue defending the Witcher, because I don't know enough of the world and its back story. In fact, I know very little.
Personally, I have no problem with stories set in a sexist word, if they are told properly, and its female characters are treated with respect. But I can understand why some/many people have a problem with it. I guess that's a really complex topic.


Edit: Moonlight, I read the articles you linked, and even though my initial position was different, I found it very hard to disagree. So, no, I won't defend sexist worlds with the historical accuracy element anymore.

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's.

Are you sure that the reason for that is the (relative) absence of sexism in the Elder Scrolls? And not the relative shallowness of its stories?

 

[CloudAtlas]

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

No. I can "enjoy" it if it is part of a dark, gritty story. And can make this story darker, grittier and perhaps more believable. But within such a story, while experiencing the story, I won't enjoy bad treatment of women. Of course not.

Speaking of feminism, I've seen a few Korean & Chinese MMOs where the men 's armor is just as skimpy & sexy as the women's; Me gusta. The problem was never that women were wearing to little so much as that men were wearing too much.

I do hope, though, that in their efforts to portray both genders more equally, games will provide their female characters with more clothes, instead of going down that route. If men start wearing as little clothing as their female counterparts, it's still a problem. Not one of sexism anymore, but of bad taste.

Then you get something like Mass Effect 1, 2, or 3, where the protagonist is hideous regardless of gender.

That's your personal opinion. I found both the default male and female Shepard to be quite attractive.

I don'T want to go into detail here, but the portrayal of male characters in JRPGs and similar games is often problematic too.

 

[APersonHere]

You think it's less immersive because there is no sexism :/ or because of other reasons. Because I find that contradicts your later statement that it doesn't need to be sexist automatically.

There is no reason why a setting that has magic and monsters has to have women as the oppressed sex. It's kind of ridiculous.

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

Again, I'm not saying all fantasy games HAVE to. My argument is that in SOME universes it DOES fit and DOES enhance the story.

You quote Skyrim as being a good game, but what if you were to remove the racism inherent in that, in which every character acted and treated every other character equally by race? A huge portion of the setting revolves around tensions between Nords and Imperials and the Thalmor, and yet when I played as an Imperial or Thalmor I felt as though the game missed a great opportunity to vary gameplay based on what you'd expect from a political and racial conflict like a civil war--being treated as a marauder, an outcast, a foreigner, a spy, a deserter, etc etc.

And no, having sexism being in a universe does "make guys feel good." (Well, fine, I bet some might.) Being interested in Game of Thrones does not make feel good about being a guy. It just, in my opinion, can allow the setting to be flexible enough for a better story.

Are you sure that the reason for that is the (relative) absence of sexism in the Elder Scrolls? And not the relative shallowness of its stories?

No. Game of Thrones and Nehrim are aimed at more mature audiences and have greater leeway in storytelling. There are many other factors involved in my preferences, and not all are objective. I liked Oblivion more than Skyrim despite it being inferior in most regards largely because I think Skyrim is just Too Damn Cold.

That's your personal opinion. I found both the default male and female Shepard to be quite attractive.

I took some time to make my first version of FemShep in ME1 as ugly as I could by virtue of the facial structure sliders. Sadly, the game crashed and I resorted to a preset.

 

[CloudAtlas]

You quote Skyrim as being a good game, but what if you were to remove the racism inherent in that, in which every character acted and treated every other character equally by race? A huge portion of the setting revolves around tensions between Nords and Imperials and the Thalmor, and yet when I played as an Imperial or Thalmor I felt as though the game missed a great opportunity to vary gameplay based on what you'd expect from a political and racial conflict like a civil war--being treated as a marauder, an outcast, a foreigner, a spy, a deserter, etc etc.

Well, I really like games exploring the theme of racism. But these games do it with fictional races (be it in Skyrim, The Witcher 2 or Mass Effect, to cite a few games already mentioned in this thread), not with real, human ethnicities. This is not really equivalent to exploring sexism. By using fictional races, you can tell a lot about racism while avoiding the (rightfully) touchy subject real-world racism is. With sexism, you don't have the "fictional" option.

 

[APersonHere]

Well, I really like games exploring the theme of racism. But these games do it with fictional races (be it in Skyrim, The Witcher 2 or Mass Effect, to cite a few games already mentioned in this thread), not with real, human ethnicities. This is not really equivalent to exploring sexism. By using fictional races, you can tell a lot about racism while avoiding the (rightfully) touchy subject real-world racism is. With sexism, you don't have the "fictional" option.

I would disagree that they are so different. Even fantasy races often have degrees of parallels to human ones. In the Elder Scrolls series, Redguards are pretty much the most easily identified ones in terms of human history. Imperials = Romans, Nords = vikings, Khajit = Gypsies... Of course these aren't 1-to-1 parallels, but it's still there.

The farther fantasy universes stray from our own, the less understandable (and probably enjoyable) they become to the average reader. There typically must be some kind of balance between a creative new world and what we as humans are already familiar with and can relate to.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I would disagree that they are so different. Even fantasy races often have degrees of parallels to human ones. In the Elder Scrolls series, Redguards are pretty much the most easily identified ones in terms of human history. Imperials = Romans, Nords = vikings, Khajit = Gypsies... Of course these aren't 1-to-1 parallels, but it's still there.

The farther fantasy universes stray from our own, the less understandable (and probably enjoyable) they become to the average reader. There typically must be some kind of balance between a creative new world and what we as humans are already familiar with and can relate to.

Yes, they do have a basis in reality. But the central conflict in Skyrim is not between Nord and Redguard, which would be easily translatable into the real world. It's between Nord and everyone else, between Nord and Imperials, between Imperials and High Elves, all races that you wouldn't identify as Black, Asian, Native American or whatever. There's also a conflict between Redguard and High Elves, I think, but I'd doubt that most white white humans will identify more closely with the "white" elves than with the black humans. Now I don't know about the older games, but at least in the three recent ones it's not like you're given the option to crush a Redguard uprising or something.
Other games, such as Dragon Age and Witcher, revert the roles by making elves, traditionally the "master race" (Lord of the Rings), the victims of racism. And in science fiction, you'll often find humans as species being looked down upon.

 

[rbstewart7263]

That's like saying that a novel that states that men cannot give birth is discriminating against men.

That's pretty a silly thing to say. Witchers are fantasy. It's written by a person. The author was discriminating when he decided that Witchers cannot be women (which isn't even true from what I've read).

There is no discrimination when sex is differentiated during human development.

The writer was creating a male dominated world he was not promoting one.It is hinted at but not confirmed. The fear is that the poisons and potions that witchers consume to become witchers are toxic and kill most men. men in this time were considered more disposable were the first to be subjected to the experiments that led to the process of creating them. Many died or were mutated and were unable to live normal lives. You should look more into the lore there are no women or men jumping at the bit to become outcast hated witchers theyd rather be knights or sorcerers.

Also theres a lady in roches temerian special forces who is well respected by roche and the rest of the men. So your argument that the witcher is sexist has no legs to stand on.

 

[Something Amyss]

This got buried under a cavalcade of more controversial posts, so pardon my lateness.

I define Immersion as "providing me with a living, breathing world that could realistically work, and that I can expect to continue beyond the immediate boundaries of the given story".

That's fine. Nobody's requiring you to use the word right. However, don't expect me to assume your personal definition when you talk on a public forum. It's one of the reasons we have definitions in the first place: so that we have common grounds.

then being popular makes those "a jesus is you" games immersive (or for that matter rpgs).

Please don't strawman me. I said they were popular because this is the cheapest form of immersion, not the other way around.

Remember Kids - Escapism and Immersion are not the same thing.

Second strawman aside, neither are realism and immersion.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's.

You think it's less immersive because there is no sexism :/ or because of other reasons. Because I find that contradicts your later statement that it doesn't need to be sexist automatically.

There is no reason why a setting that has magic and monsters has to have women as the oppressed sex. It's kind of ridiculous.

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

This isnt the first time that youve insinuated that members of the escapist prefer darker fantasies not because we find the struggles of the underprivileged to be compelling and heart wrenching settings to explore, But that we find the setting compelling because "Gee wouldnt it be great if womenz were treated like crap again."

I think they call that being apart of the problem while trying to fix it.

 

[rbstewart7263]

So yeah for the artist that wants to put all men in spandex on the battlefield. Yeah for all the developers that want to equip the women in full plate armor. Yeah for the writers that want to make something like drapes enchanted armor with a rose as the ultimate weapon against evil. It's all possible and all possibilities should be open for the artist to express.

I'm just going to point out that artists do not exist in a vacuum and examining why ladies are usually the spandexed-up ones is not saying it `shouldn't be allowed`. Artists benefit from constructive critical examination of their work.
I really don't think we should be afraid of criticizing the things we care about, unless you think there is no way games could improve.

And also I'm up at this ungodly hour because there is a big fuck-off spider in my room.

I always thought that final fantasy 10 was a reversal of the norm. Tidus was the biggest boywhore of the group!lmao

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's.

You think it's less immersive because there is no sexism :/ or because of other reasons. Because I find that contradicts your later statement that it doesn't need to be sexist automatically.

There is no reason why a setting that has magic and monsters has to have women as the oppressed sex. It's kind of ridiculous.

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

This isnt the first time that youve insinuated that members of the escapist prefer darker fantasies not because we find the struggles of the underprivileged to be compelling and heart wrenching settings to explore, But that we find the setting compelling because "Gee wouldnt it be great if womenz were treated like crap again."

I think they call that being apart of the problem while trying to fix it.

I guess I just don't understand why it's something that's always needed. I mean would you be okay with it if it was men as the underprivileged gender. (not being facetious genuinely asking). They could always tell it a different way too like having elves as the ones suffering from racism.

It's a trope I get tired of. It's not fun getting told that you can't play a female hero because 'That's the way it was in the past', I mean that covers almost all of the past doesn't it up until about the mid eighties.

And then we aren't allowed to be heroes in a lot future settings either

I understand about it being compelling but when it's the norm it gets rather obnoxious, kind of like the damsel in distress trope I guess.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Also a society where men and women are equal does not have to be 'jolly' Look at Skyrim it's hardly jolly is it and yet men and woman are pretty much equal in that game.

And as a result, I personally feel as though the Elder Scrolls universe is far less interesting or immersive than George RR. Martin's.

You think it's less immersive because there is no sexism :/ or because of other reasons. Because I find that contradicts your later statement that it doesn't need to be sexist automatically.

There is no reason why a setting that has magic and monsters has to have women as the oppressed sex. It's kind of ridiculous.

I kind of want to ask do you guys enjoy a sexist setting does it make you feel good? Because you seem very defensive of the idea.

This isnt the first time that youve insinuated that members of the escapist prefer darker fantasies not because we find the struggles of the underprivileged to be compelling and heart wrenching settings to explore, But that we find the setting compelling because "Gee wouldnt it be great if womenz were treated like crap again."

I think they call that being apart of the problem while trying to fix it.

I guess I just don't understand why it's something that's always needed. I mean would you be okay with it if it was men as the underprivileged gender. (not being facetious genuinely asking). They could always tell it a different way too like having elves as the ones suffering from racism.

It's a trope I get tired of. It's not fun getting told that you can't play a female hero because 'That's the way it was in the past', I mean that covers almost all of the past doesn't it up until about the mid eighties.

And then we aren't allowed to be heroes in a lot future settings either

I understand about it being compelling but when it's the norm it gets rather obnoxious, kind of like the damsel in distress trope I guess.

Yes that done right would be FASCINATING! I love george rr martin and all manner of fantasy that likens to his ilk. As long as the world has me convinced that thats a thing then im down.

Also I mus contest the ammount of dark fantasy that you seem to think is around. Game of thrones just premiered on hbo 3 years ago and I cant think of any other games aside from the witcher that depict a world like this thats dark and oppressive.(I dont count dragonage) dragon age and skyrim depict places where theyve got better things to oppress. So one game series doesnt constitute a trend.

Also Im sure were the games not so character focused(because thank god I dont need another skyrim) Im sure you could play a lady. They dont hate your gender moonlight they just love the fonzy of medieval fantasy geralt of rivia and I do to.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Thinking about it I think the drow in Icewind Dale oppress guys? Unless I'm remembering it wrong. I don't mind if a guy is sexually active as long as they, the devs, show the female characters some respect while doing it. The Witcher (the first one) certainly didn't.

I'm hoping Cyberpunk 2077 let's you play as a woman (I have heard that it does) then I can experience CDProjekts work without feeling so majorly squicked out but we will see.

Maybe one day I will bring myself to play The Witcher 2 but I don't think today is that day

On the subject I think it's funny that they said the hero in assassins creed 3 couldn't be a hero 'because history' and then made him native american...yeah because that is so much more believable :/ At least the made the one on the vita a woman (and she looks pretty awesome tbh)

 

[CloudAtlas]

(...)

The argument against including sexism in a game boils down to this:

Games fulfill escapist fantasies. You gotta be the hero. You don't have to struggle with your everyday problems here. And if you are a woman, you don't want to face the same sexism in a game that you experience in your daily life too.

See e.g. this article: http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/

So, even if you personally think that sexism makes a story, a world richer, darker, more realistic or whatever, that's the reason why you, altruistically, might want to oppose sexism as part of a story anyway.


Edit: Sexism against men, well, yes, some worlds feature matriarch or amazonian societies too, that's true. But that's all, for the largest part, just fictional stuff. The best real-world example I can come up with would be a game where you play as a divorced guy who fights for custody of his children. I doubt this setting would be popular with single dads who actually fight these battles in their real life already. Just to name an example where men are disadvantaged in some countries (like Japan).