Ladies, how about you?

[Zannah]

You see games are not respectful depictions of non-player characters. They're about convincing the people who play them to pay real money for a virtual experience, and a great deal of games do this by making the actions or inaction of the player matter a great deal. In some RPGs virtually every NPC lives according to the fiat of the player and could be almost be entirely depopulated if they so will it. Adding empowered female characters to the game means relatively little, because ultimately it is the actions of the protagonist that determine how events unfold, which more often than not takes the form of a simple binary choice between a good or bad ending for the NPC(s) that the player character is dealing with.

The Witcher is about the titular protagonist. It's not about any other character regardless of their gender. The player naturally gets to take on the role of the protagonist, and to a limited degree is allowed a measure of choice as to what sort of fairy cake is used.

But there are relatively few things from Dungeons & Dragons (or any other pen & paper RPG ever devised) as frustratingly annoying as a dungeon master who abuses their position, turning their players into the game's audience and subjecting them to an unending cavalcade of NPCs to which their actions are largely irrelevant. Regardless of the justification, I don't think anyone honestly wants more characters like that in any sort of game they play in.

First of all, this, like anything else is a matter of balance - a world where every npc is a statue, waiting for the glorious chosen one to come by and solve all their problems and determine their further fate (Dragon Age Origins, here's looking at you) is utterly hollow, and not in the slightest immersive. This kind of wish-fullfillment is in unfortunately high demand, which makes me question the sanity of other self-proclaimed role-players, but we don't need to go on that tangent.

The Witcher 2 however - it does all that, which you just called horrible - knocking you over in a cutscene so an enemy can escape, capturing you half a dozen times so you can listen to a bond-villain rant and to give another character a 'badass' moment when they save you - even going so far as to wrestle the camera away from you entirely to show you someone somewhere else. That, narratively speaking, makes it a weak game - according to you anyway.
Now the reason we talk about it - all those characters, that get to have their moments, get to be proactive, get to kick the player around regardless of their decisions - those are all male. While all the supposedly powerful or relevant female characters are either helpless damsels or set up for horrible torture and humiliating death. And that's what makes the game really, really sexist.

 

[Vault101]

oh god...what the hell are you on about?.....

your one of those "there is no problem! LALALALA EVERYTHING IS FINE" people arent you?

I really gotta question the video game library of people who make these complaints like this. I mean I really would like to see what games people own and are investing their own money in that makes them like this.

make us like [i/]what?[/i] are you implying because I would like more female representation in games that I am somehow being unreasonable?

ok genius...here's the thing, I am female, I see the world through a female perspective. Now I'm not about to say "because I'm female you don;t know anything and can't comment" but I will say from a female perspective and someone who consumes alot of media....we don;t have the best representation and I don;t know if your white or not but the fact is

[b/] almost everything is targeted towards you[/b](more or less...even if alot of things learn to wards a slightly more unisex appeal)

maybe people like you forget that and you can;t possibly understand what its like to grow up and in all that entertain ment its the guys who are the heros, the guys who get the focus the guys who get to have all the fun and the girls....not so much

the thing is I don't have an agenda..I don't want to take away your precious fucking games

I'm like a dog...a starving fucking dog that justs wants a fucking bone, and when some people act like I'm gonna eat their entire motherfucking roast chicken it kind of pisses me off

so you can go ahead and wright a whole f wall of text talking about god knows what and "artistic integrity" but you KNOW thats bullshit, this isn't about artistic integrity because [b/]the AAA market has no artistic integrity[/b] because this is actually not a gender issue, this is a an issue of a [b/]serious[/b] stranglehold on creativity within the AAA industry and the "white male protagonist" is a by product of that...hell I dont think I'd care if most protagonists were white or male...as long as they had some fucking personality

this isn't me or other people saying "you have to create THIS!" we are saying "you should have the freedom to create this!"

they DONT have the freedom to create strong female protagonists because theres a perception that that that shit has less chance of selling...its the same reason EA did all that bullshit to dead space....[b/]a symptom of the same problem[/b]


[quote/]Because if you aren't buying these games then I really don't see how you can complain because it is clear you are speaking with your wallet that you aren't interested in those types of games that developers are creating compared to the games you are putting your money towards.[/quote]
oh thats a great Idea....I'll buy all those games I see with a strong female protagonist...OH WAIT

you do realise that I enjoy many games with a white male protagonist? and alot of those games I have no problem with?

[quote/]The only general constructive thing people can say to people which I say to pretty much everyone is when the moment you think you should stop yourself that might improve your life I tell them to not stop and know how great they are as a person. I see too many people who are basically their own stop sign. At least in my rut I have a LONG list of rejection notices and I never stop myself from actually applying for a job for an example.[/quote]
what the fuck I don't even....

youre not making any sense

 

[Padwolf]

There were some harvest moon games where you either got to pick your gender or you played as a female. That much I'm certain. But yeah that franchise pending the narrative could actually have either gender. But the other side to the issue is you have a small development house having to create double the content. Either you create a completely different set of citizens or make everyone a potential candidate for marriage which actually harder than one would think. You have to give motivation and reasoning and it kinda loses part of its immersion when you go from simply being a normal farmer to having the ENTIRE TOWN being centered around you. One of the pieces of charm those games and many sim games have is that they don't put you at the center of attention but more like living the life of that character.

Been a while though since I played a Harvest Moon game. Need to still try the Rune Factory games. Probably try and get the wii versions if I ever get some disposable income.

There were a couple that allowed it. Some of them were pretty awesome, I hear! (I've only played the original and BTN, but I'd love to try a few of the DS ones.) But... there was also the dreaded Harvest Moon 3 GBC.

In HM3, you can play as a boy or a girl. Picking the girl gives you a free cow and brush. But you can't upgrade your tools. And you have less stamina than the boy character.

Like most (all?) other HM games, you can get married in HM3. If you play as a boy and get married, the game continues. If you play as a girl and get married, the game ends.

Seriously. Natsume. What that fuck.

Tenmar, that's what I love about them, that charm that you are living the life of your character. I love the newest Harvest Moon games on the Wii, Animal Parade was one hell of a fantastic game. There is so much you can do with it. Definitely check out Rune Factory Frontier on the Wii or Rune Factory Oceans, they are really good. Though Frontier comes with a hell of a lot of confusion. It does not tell you what to do, it tells you barely anything at all about this "Runey" system it has for growing crops so it is best to have a guide for it. Beyond that the game is brilliant.

Bananafishtoday, I remember that HM3 game. That was just seriously annoying as hell that the game just ends. You should check out the other ones, the DS ones are quite good too, though in all honesty I feel they are sort of lacking in comparison to the Wii HM games. Admittedly it's because one is console the other handheld, but I feel it lacking in terms of the towns and characters and just what you can do with it all.

I have pretty much every single Harvest Moon game and Rune Factory game to date, minus one Playstation one that only came out in America and Japan. Harvest Moon does allow female protagonists now, but Rune Factory has only just really started allowing it, Rune Factory Oceans or Tides of Destiny letting you become a female eventually. I think Rune Factory 4 is the very first that lets you play a female right from the start. I want it so much now Those games are so lovely to play, it just used to annoy me at the start of them that I couldn't play as a female, I'm glad they have that option now.

 

[Vault101]

First of all, this, like anything else is a matter of balance - a world where every npc is a statue, waiting for the glorious chosen one to come by and solve all their problems and determine their further fate (Dragon Age Origins, here's looking at you) is utterly hollow, and not in the slightest immersive. This kind of wish-fullfillment is in unfortunately high demand, which makes me question the sanity of other self-proclaimed role-players, but we don't need to go on that tangent.

high demand? I don;t know...I'd say its just uncreative at best and bad writing at worst

eather way I'd say skyrim is the purest of this kind of thing...part of the reason I really don't like skyrim...you ascend to a position of almost god like power....but its like the whole world is laid out for you...you have no sense of presence in the world aside from "you are the PC in an RPG"

 

[6BlindFolk]

As a woman who also happens to be a physical and ethnic minority, I really relate to the original question of this post. I actually went through something like this a bit myself. I was gravitating away from buying games with male protagonists but my problem wasn't about being able to identify.

I can identify with many characters as ones I inhabit, create an inhabit, or simply control. The way I identify with a character seems to have nothing to do with gender. I play Halo alone: I'm Master Chief. I play Halo co-op with my friends: I'm a female Spartan. I can also inhabit my created heroes even though I create their personalities to be distinct from my own. I saved the galaxy as a black bisexual Fem Shep and quested through Albion as a transsexual male. I control Samus' movements without inhabiting her. After a little bit of reflection this is what I figured out:

The gender of the playable character or existence of gender choice is a good shorthand for whether or not I am going to have to fight to ignore unreasonable amounts of insults against my gender or race.

With such low representation in games, it starts to feel like women simply don't exist or worse that they do but are so unimportant or incapable that no time spent making them is justified. Also insulting is the casual sexism in the way most of the woman who do appear are scripted, designed, dressed, shot, or treated. This behavior can range from ignorable to so insulting I have to stop playing.

I grew up. I got more self-esteem and less time. I exist and I don't like to to constantly immerse myself in games that insult me. After a long day in my mostly male profession (where I may or may not have encountered such BS) I don't want more BS to greet me when I try to relax. Sadly this may mean I might miss out on some fun.

 

[Maxtro]

Any character driven game is going to have the gender defined for the main character. Few game developers are going to make the effort to write a male and female version of their story. Games like Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma, which let the player decide the gender, usually only have a barebones gender-neutral story for the main character

Since the vast majority of gamers are men, high budget games will continue to have male main characters.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

First of all, this, like anything else is a matter of balance - a world where every npc is a statue, waiting for the glorious chosen one to come by and solve all their problems and determine their further fate (Dragon Age Origins, here's looking at you) is utterly hollow, and not in the slightest immersive. This kind of wish-fullfillment is in unfortunately high demand, which makes me question the sanity of other self-proclaimed role-players, but we don't need to go on that tangent.

And I question the sanity of someone who is engaged in a practice, to which they believe themselves as the sole sane practitioner of. Not trying to come across as hostile, but that's my observation. You're quite right about Dragon Age : Origins so far as your opinion lines up with mine, but I never blamed the game for failing to recreate the illusion of an immersive gaming experience with today's available technology. I have simply played too many games like it, and what techniques used to work to create the illusion of an living, breathing artificial world just do not work anymore. Games might look prettier, and when they choose to be they might look more passably realistic than ever before, but underneath the hood of the car the motor hasn't advanced nearly as much.

The Witcher 2 however - it does all that, which you just called horrible - knocking you over in a cutscene so an enemy can escape, capturing you half a dozen times so you can listen to a bond-villain rant and to give another character a 'badass' moment when they save you - even going so far as to wrestle the camera away from you entirely to show you someone somewhere else. That, narratively speaking, makes it a weak game - according to you anyway.

The Witcher 2 is by no means a perfect game. I just feel that your criticism was invalid. Two wrongs do not serve to make a right, nor a half a dozen wrongs or even heaping more on top of that. What you've overlooked is that all of these events ultimately serve to underlay the importance of the protagonist. Some antagonists might be allowed a brief moment to shine, but it only really serves as a means to ramp up the dramatic tension, increase the stakes and portray them as something worth the protagonist's inevitable pummeling. This is especially true in the case of a game's primary antagonist.

Now the reason we talk about it - all those characters, that get to have their moments, get to be proactive, get to kick the player around regardless of their decisions - those are all male. While all the supposedly powerful or relevant female characters are either helpless damsels or set up for horrible torture and humiliating death. And that's what makes the game really, really sexist.

So setting aside the main two narrative roles of protagonist and primary antagonist respectively, how exactly is this different from letting bad things happen, causing bad things to happen or being the bad thing that happens to male characters? Why are you judging this game differently from any other where the main character roams the land acting like the judge, jury and executioner of the will of god? Near all RPGs are built around the premise or conceit that virtually all of the NPCs that will be encountered suck just enough that they require action from the player in order to succeed. The game isn't treating these female characters different from their male counterparts, they're treating them exactly the same, and I can't help but feel that that is what you have a problem with.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Snipped super long (but good).

Thanks for retooling Good points. It might be a passion combined with disgust thing. I'm good though - no major crisis, just muddly about my video game library. I... also might have been (and still am) procrastinating writing a really short but disgustingly stupid paper for my last semester of college which I am just about done with and still stuck churning out 5-6 pages about inane crap, y'know, that sort of thing. No counsellor required, just the next few months to go the hell by already (preferably with some sleep thrown in here and there).

I have to ask you as well. What games do you own? Ever consider making a spreadsheet of your collection? Are you buying games cause of the marketing? Are you staying informed as a consumer? Are those the games you really would want to own personally or are you just buying them cause of the hype?

Also yeah you do have more important projects to do outside your hobby(to which I would emphasize applying for internships and producing your own portfolio online). Also don't know what kind of paper it is but just make sure you know how to properly use a primary and secondary source. Simply just citing the dates, names and event isn't enough. You need to ask how people felt during the event, why did they think that way if they were responding to a letter, what were the circumstances of the interview and how do they connect with your opinion or thesis.

Also yes, get some regular sleep. Stop staying up so late.

Mostly RPGs like I said - that's kinda my genre. Some others, never made a list but it's a small shelf for PS3, I used to have way way more PS2 games but I was younger and had more disposable income then too. Not really a slave to marketing, over marketed games I tend to pass over on the general rule around my house with all media which is: the more hype you see for something the less likely it is to deserve it (movies, books, games - it just seems to be our rule of thumb around here).

... I know how to cite my sources and perform analysis of them. I'm actually an A student... y'know, never mind that's off topic entirely. As constructive criticism: you come off a big condescending. If that's not intentional, you might want to moderate that. Overlap between my hobby and my more important projects might be a problem area - there's been some bleed over one into the other and I will probably have to reestablish boundaries before moving into graduate work with it.

Sleep is good, but long conditioning (and early childhood insomnia) makes me see it as something of a luxury.

** In the interest if getting important stuff done today I'm just hitting the quoted me posts and I'll pass over this thread again once I'm finished with work stuff, so any unanswered: apologies. **

 

[ChemicalAlia]

The kinds of games that let you build your own character don't really appeal to me, and I don't think I've ever actually played one. So I can't really say much about games like Mass Effect where you can choose to be male or female.

I tend to like games that tell the story of a particular character, and I normally have no problem with playing as a male character. What turns me off is when I get the feeling that the experience itself is tailored specifically towards guys, with ass shots, shitty female character design and overt sexual pandering. Then I usually feel like I can't get into the game or relate to it at all.

I do like playing as interesting and distinctive characters who may be very different than me, though. Lee from Walking Dead was probably the neatest character I played as since Valanice and Rosella in King's Quest VII, which was a loooong time ago.

 

[Frankster]

Mmm its true for mmos and rpgs, i do favor male characters as i find myself relating to male characters easier then female characters in those games.

But for other genres, its the quality of the character rather then gender that matters to me, to give some examples...

Lara and solid snake, i find both those characters likeable, and gender flipping them wouldn't matter much to me.

Nathan drake i cant stand, making him female wouldnt make him any more likeable (and no he isnt just a male lara croft imo, lara croft was never an insufferable smug ponce) and my desire to see him/her suffer nasty deaths would remain the same.

 

[Maevine]

I've also been starting to feel disinterested in titles featuring a male protagonist here recently, despite happily gaming as various male characters my entire life. I don't feel there's anything wrong with the characters themselves, but when I look at them and then look back at all of the other characters I've played as, I realize I've been following the story of the same handful of men for the past 15 years. Their ages and occupations and haircolors may change from game to game, but they're all basically the same dudes. The pretty elf boy, the muscle-bound beefcake, the lonely assassin, etc. I guess I'm just ready to play as someone else.

As far as character customization goes, the games that allow it generally turn me off of choosing the female option by making all of their women short, dainty little things with huge tits. Even Skyrim managed to dishearten me when it wouldn't let me make a super ugly, hulking beast of a female character the way I could a male one (though I still had loads of fun with my kitty-characters Fluffums and Sir Foofybottom). When the option is both available and g-cup free, though, I rather like playing as some version of myself. Hopefully I can do it more often as more games come out that acknowledge our sex's existence.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Never apologize for any of that stuff. You aren't spellbound to respond to each quote or reply. More often it is a person who is hopefully just sharing their thoughts on the subject or simply taking the time to answer a question.

As for your studies, well you did kinda mention them. Just trying to help out a bit there cause I know how it feels having to crank out a paper.

Also ehh, really don't know how people ever think I come off as condescending. But as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Grew up being bullied so I learned not to take anyone's bullshit. Problem is with forums more often than not people personally infer their own emotions into what others say and react from that. Not once since the old guard has pretty much been banned or left these forums does this one thing ever happen.

I never see a fellow escapist ask a question back requesting for clarity. Hell, not even just simply asking a question in return. More often than not the person asks a question as the part of a witty retort that is supposed to put a person in their place or the old I'm right and you are wrong scenario. Can't really have a conversation if one isn't willing to ask questions in return or be willing to admit that you simply don't know. This isn't Downton Abbey here where everyone performs the act of double speak.

So as a result, conversations become stale. No one really learns from each other. And it becomes more important about using generalities to talk about "what is wrong with video games" than actually simply sharing their own point of view(to which thankfully this is what this topic is about, you and the desire to play "female only" video games). I know I'm sorta simplifying this but for the sake of brevity give me a bit of slack on that last sentence.

I mean really most of the time I posts in these forums now instead of actually getting a follow up question or trying to come to a consensus like we used to(with a fair bit of spats without actually abusing the report function) I now just see this. Posts like Vault101 here that basically go on some martyr complex while at the same time trying to image me as some "more special" being without a single bone of humility in my body. Yet all we are talking about is our hobby. A hobby that just like any other hobby we pursue as a luxury.

Sure it is fun to think that we are somehow part of the video game industry and there is certainly things we can do to affect it such as NOT buying certain games. At the same time however we must be pragmatic and humble that people who have video games as a hobby does not mean they put in the same amount of time or understanding of what is going on in the industry or knowing developers. Most people who have a hobby just perform the action. I like going fishing but fuck all if I know who the best fishermen in the world are. I just fish. I'm sure it is the same way with video games. Some people just play video games.

I know I'm ranting here but honestly I'd like a lot less ideology pushing here and more about actually being able to really share what games ya do like and why. Help my fellow hobbyists solve problems if it actually is a problem. Find ways to engage with them or show them ways how to get involved. If you really want things to change simply shouting at the problem isn't really going to solve anything compared to making change. Find companies that are making the games you like and buy their product. Kickstart developers that are transparent with the game they want to develop that you like. Take the time to learn a skill related to video games and actually work for a company that you respect. Might give a bit of perspective on how actually humble developers are and how much they actually care about their art. I know it has for me when I volunteered at IndieCade and went to E3 twice.

True, I'm not obligated, but in the interest of that quality of conversation you were mentioning (agree with all that by the by) I like to try - at least when a thread is mine and active to not abandon it and the people who post back to me. Priorities take priority though. For the condescending comment - yeah I didn't think it was intentional, but anyone dispensing somewhat unsolicited advice on the Internet does tend to appear that way - maybe that's a sad commentary on the state of Internet interactions more than anything else though. Good intentions are something I do try to ferret out and appreciate, being so rare these days.

I am on the fence about how much a part of the industry we are. I think we can and should be more a part of the industry, and I think it would flourish for it too, IF and only IF we could pull together on some community issues, and as you point out, we're far from that yet. In time, and with education and continued attempts I think it's still possible. We aren't model train collectors or fine wine aficionados - our hobby is an interactive one and that doesn't need to be person to screen interaction limited. You're right in saying it needs to come from a personal place again - see my comment about politics and tack ideology on it. The "skill related to video games" part, well it just isn't for everyone who loves the hobby - I'm an English and History major for example and science is not my friend, nor math for that matter beyond what one needs to function on an every day basis. I want to open up avenues of skills for video games that fall under these trees though - writing classes for future video game writers for example, instead of just using novel or movie script writers for the task, which of course needs critical analysis of video game writing that's occurred already. There's plenty of room for the field of jobs related to the industry to both widen and become more specialized as we move forward - professional video game voice acting classes, historians for fact checking in video games who can also identify gaps where fictional characters would function most freely, etc. etc.

 

[Vault101]

I mean really most of the time I posts in these forums now instead of actually getting a follow up question or trying to come to a consensus like we used to(with a fair bit of spats without actually abusing the report function) I now just see this. Posts like Vault101 here that basically go on some martyr complex while at the same time trying to image me as some "more special" being without a single bone of humility in my body. Yet all we are talking about is our hobby. A hobby that just like any other hobby we pursue as a luxury.

ok then...explain what it is your saying because I have no fucking clue

I don't have a martyr complex....I am just soo frustrating at people not understanding why thease things are an issue,

if you still can't understnad it let me break it down

I.....WOULD....LIKE....MORE....GAMES....WITH....GOOD....PROTAGONISTS........ALSO........I....
WOULD....LIKE...TOO....SEE....SOME....GOOD....FEMALE....CHARACHTERS

tell me..please, tell me how this is unreasonable, tell me how this hurts YOU, tell me how this hurts the industry,

 

[Something Amyss]

(Just to be clear, I don't count any character you get dialogue options for as a "full character". If I'm making decisions about what they say, then that ruins my fun of getting to know them.)

To be fair, that could still be done and not change the developed character. Most dialogue options are pretty trivial in the first place. The problem is that they usually also appear in games where the characters are ciphers and the plots are virtual blowjobs to the player character.

"Shepherd, you're the youngest seeker in a century!"

Wait, I may have done that wrong.

For example, people I know who are fans of Mass Effect find the scene where Shepard head-butts another character kick-ass when Shepard is male, but hilarious when Shepard is female, which may or may not be the reaction the writers were looking for!

Personally, I found it awesome when she did it. If Captain Janeway headbutted a couple of Kazon, the show would have been ten times as awesome.

"My people have a saying: You go, girl!"

More importantly, swapping gender is very likely to affect how other characters response to the protagonist. Some games like Dragon Age Origins try to cope with this by programming in different responses depending on which gender you picked (so random NPCs can know whether to remark on the hero's bosoms or not), while other games like Mount and Blade don't even bother to swap the pronouns.

In most games, this has almost zero impact.

Let's face it, it's not like most characters have any real depth anyways. Even the most developed characters in gaming tend to be about on par with Bella and Edward.

Playing the same story again, but with a different hero who reacts to situations in different ways is quite a fun idea.

Which we need more of.

As long as that doesn't mean the plot needs to be dull/simplistic/predictable in order to cope with multiple people as the hero.

Unfortunately, that's a weird qualifier, as most protagonists are dull/simplistic/predictable anyway (as are their plots). In a medium that's mostly Master Chiefs and Nathan Drakes, it's hard for me to see much of a difference. I see where you're coming from potentially, but not in actuality. It's not like the Citizen Kane is getting turned into a "choose your own adventure."

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I love playing as a woman but it doesn't really trouble me much if I have to be a male protagonist. The only time I think "ohh... I would have loved to have the option to be a woman" is for the Rune Factory and Harvest Moon games. Though one thing that does bother me is when games really skimp the options for customisation for women, and there are barely any options at all for it.

There were a couple that allowed it. Some of them were pretty awesome, I hear! (I've only played the original and BTN, but I'd love to try a few of the DS ones.) But... there was also the dreaded Harvest Moon 3 GBC.

In HM3, you can play as a boy or a girl. Picking the girl gives you a free cow and brush. But you can't upgrade your tools. And you have less stamina than the boy character.

Like most (all?) other HM games, you can get married in HM3. If you play as a boy and get married, the game continues. If you play as a girl and get married, the game ends.

Seriously. Natsume. What that fuck.

Are you sure and certain that's how it was supposed to work? I know for a fact I upgraded the hell out of my tools on the PSP version I played and I'm pretty sure (though memory hazes a few years back on such minor life details) that the character I actually made it to marriage with kept right on a-farmin. Maybe that's the PSP version only? NO idea - just that's the only one I played ever (really liked it, great time sink and amusing) ... then again - maybe I did get married and the game ended, or I quit playing. One game I missed a wedding... aw crap this is gonna bug me.

 

[Something Amyss]

a world where every npc is a statue, waiting for the glorious chosen one to come by and solve all their problems and determine their further fate (Dragon Age Origins, here's looking at you) is utterly hollow, and not in the slightest immersive. This kind of wish-fullfillment is in unfortunately high demand, which makes me question the sanity of other self-proclaimed role-players, but we don't need to go on that tangent.

On the contrary. This is the cheapest and easiest way to arrive at "immersion." It appears you are using the common internet version of "immersion," where the lack of it means "something I don't like." However, whether or not you like it, peopel tend to immerse themselves in those games. This is one of the big reasons for their popularity.

Posts like Vault101 here that basically go on some martyr complex while at the same time trying to image me as some "more special" being without a single bone of humility in my body.

I'd personally like to see where this is happening. Right now, though, it looks like you're preaching a lack of moderation and communication while misrepresenting someone who disagrees with you.

However, I'm not against being proven wrong.

 

[bananafishtoday]

I love playing as a woman but it doesn't really trouble me much if I have to be a male protagonist. The only time I think "ohh... I would have loved to have the option to be a woman" is for the Rune Factory and Harvest Moon games. Though one thing that does bother me is when games really skimp the options for customisation for women, and there are barely any options at all for it.

There were a couple that allowed it. Some of them were pretty awesome, I hear! (I've only played the original and BTN, but I'd love to try a few of the DS ones.) But... there was also the dreaded Harvest Moon 3 GBC.

In HM3, you can play as a boy or a girl. Picking the girl gives you a free cow and brush. But you can't upgrade your tools. And you have less stamina than the boy character.

Like most (all?) other HM games, you can get married in HM3. If you play as a boy and get married, the game continues. If you play as a girl and get married, the game ends.

Seriously. Natsume. What that fuck.

Are you sure and certain that's how it was supposed to work? I know for a fact I upgraded the hell out of my tools on the PSP version I played and I'm pretty sure (though memory hazes a few years back on such minor life details) that the character I actually made it to marriage with kept right on a-farmin. Maybe that's the PSP version only? NO idea - just that's the only one I played ever (really liked it, great time sink and amusing) ... then again - maybe I did get married and the game ended, or I quit playing. One game I missed a wedding... aw crap this is gonna bug me.

Oops, I worded that poorly! Sorry. I only meant for "Like most (all?) other HM games" to apply to the fact you could get married, not the game ending. That "feature" was, afaik, only in HM3 for GBA. (Also I went looking for videos of it, and I noticed they all feature the male HM protag as the love interest... so now I'm wondering if you even have a choice of your spouse in that game if you played a female char?)

The scene in question:


Reading about the PSP one, it seems really good! Like an expanded edition of BTN, a game I adored.

Edit:
Ugh. Fuck. Actually, googling tells me that getting married as a girl in the PSP Harvest Moon also ends the game on the spot.


And check out how if you turn him down, the game decides to focus on how he feels and how he needs to grow as a person and his new potential love interest and arghhhhdjysrxAZwsxfd god damnit. (But at least you can keep playing.)

Also a lot of the comments are really sad too.

my cliff loves ann too? omg i already married him lol. but is that really finish after the sentence "life is like a festivel?" why i cant continue the farm with cliff? why i cant have baby with cliff? why it ends after married with him?

It's kind of boring when the game ends because, most of the players are girls and ofcourse SOME of them will choose the girl's ver. then after that , if they get married to one of the bachelors, It will be ..... u know .... kind of a boring shock( cause' the game will end without even living with the bachelor u married((

OMG THE GAME DOES END ONCE U MARRY CLIFF!!! T______T

But yeah, a lot of people on that video and on forums confirm it's not just Cliff, but any of the girl marriages. I know DS Cute lets you keep playing as either character though.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Snip.

Oh yeah that first one looks way older than the one I played on PSP - it was really good, I do recommend - sorry - I got the abbreviations all garbled, like I said, I only played the one. Maybe the game I kept playing was the one I screwed up the marriage option - it's really HARD to have time to farm successfully and go courting. I never figured out how to make the little house of fairy helpers help me right either. Happily - the game book comes with a calendar in the back and if you get it I highly highly recommend jotting down everyone's B-day on it either when you learn it naturally or from a list online, when festivals are, etc. Some are marked out for you already but some aren't - they're sneaky that way.

Also - you are totally in competition for every guy, they all have girls in town who like them, but that is the same for the girls if you're playing a boy too. What I didn't like was someone else was going to be put out when I took one of the possible partners, so I think for a game I gave the whole thing a miss and just stuck to being single so the game went on for what seemed like a long long time.

Totally upgradable tools though - of that I'm certain. Not sure if same or less stamina.

Bummer that getting married ends the game for girls - for boys do they start living with you? Do you get a bigger bed? Can your wife be bothered to do chores around the farm like at least cooking? Gosh cooking as the girl in that game was fun, but it was only useful up to a point.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Also - I'm going to reiterate without quoting some people who seemed to have missed a key element here - I don't have a problem playing games that do not offer me my own gender in the main protagonist. I loved Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, all the Final Fantasy games (until XII, because the story and characterization - I felt - was not up to FF standards; XIII was okay but too much flashbang not enough impact for my expectations of FF games), Assassins Creed I, II, Brotherhood, and Revelations, Devil May Cry 1 and 2 (stopped following it, mostly b/c of other games and obligations eating my playtime up), and dozens and dozens of other titles where the main protagonist was a well established male character.

What I said - and am still saying, though the feeling has somewhat abated thanks to this discussion, which is awesome - was that I was less enthusiastic about such games lately.

I think because of a combination of my sticking to "make your own character" type games (Fallout 3, NV, Oblivion, Skyrim) and "swap option" games (ME 1, 2, 3, DA:O, DA:A, and DA2) in the last few months and the frequent, vehement, and vitriolic discussions about gender in games both here and elsewhere lately. Maybe also because I have been future-planning my outlook for graduate work which will involved some game narrative, story-telling mechanic, and trend deconstruction in an attempt to get the world of academia to see video games as a legitimate literacy worthy of both study and teaching. Add a dash of "little things keep going to crap at random intervals" garden variety gloom and here I was.

Just to refresh people, or clear up confusion that seems to have occurred in asking my fellow Escapists (and specifically my female cohorts, because I have no close female friends in real life that also play video games - just guy friends and my fiancé) about if they feel something - or have felt something - similar. Or don't, and if not why not and maybe advice on how I could not.

 

[bananafishtoday]

Oh yeah that looks way older than the one I played - it was really good, I do recommend - sorry - I got the abbreviations all garbled, like I said, I only played the one. Maybe the game I kept playing was the one I screwed up the marriage option - it's really HARD to have time to farm successfully and go courting. I never figured out how to make the little house of fairy helpers help me right either. Happily - the game book comes with a calendar in the back and if you get it I highly highly recommend jotting down everyone's B-day on it either when you learn it naturally or from a list online, when festivals are, etc. Some are marked out for you already but some aren't - they're sneaky that way.

Totally upgradable tools though - of that I'm certain. Not sure if same or less stamina.

Bummer that getting married ends the game for girls - for boys do they start living with you? Do you get a bigger bed? Can your wife be bothered to do chores around the farm like at least cooking? Gosh cooking as the girl in that game was fun, but it was only useful up to a point.

They start living with you if you play as a boy. (You need the biggest house to propose.) The game always lasts for three ingame years, at which point the villagers decide whether you get to stay or not. The wife doesn't really do anything. She gives you food in the morning, never leaves the house except to go to festivals, and can have a baby. It's just really unfortunate, especially since the series always had a huge female fanbase, that there's so much gender roles bullshit.

Omg I loved the cooking too. The way they set it up was so good (and addicting, holy crap.) That's what gave that version so much longevity for me: the fact that I needed to get all the kitchen supplies, needed to have a varied farm to get all the ingredients, mixing stuff to get new recipes was super interesting, adding condiments could improve or ruin dishes... it was so fun! Plus the festivals, plus the way that the town worked with everyone having their own personal schedules and tons of hidden scenes at specific times.

And whoa, the more I read about DS Cute, the more I want to play it. Apparently the Japanese version even allowed gay marriage. (They called it the "best friends" system, but lol. It's tons of romantic dialogue followed by a wedding. C'mon.) Sadly, it was removed in the American version, surprise surprise.