Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

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ezaviel

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Mar 26, 2011
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Jabberwock xeno said:
ezaviel said:
Jabberwock xeno said:
ezaviel said:
Jabberwock xeno said:
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That's not what I mean either.

I suppose a better way to convey it would be like this:

An individual disk containing any type of non physical data is only worth the amount of the physical disk itself. However, a game, program, movie, whatever, IS worth something, as many people's time and effort went in to it.

The issue with our society is that we put values on things. I'm no expert in economics or history or whatever, but i'm fairly certain that the entire foundation of currency was developed because different objects or substances had a practical use. Like in africa, gold wasn't worth nearly as much as salt, as salt had a much more practical purpose.

Somewhere along the line, a few things happened: We started to assign value based on other factors:

- Scarity/limited-ness: The loss of a amount of these deprived the owner of that use. Or, in other words, the gain of something requires the loss of that thing from other places. Like with a math problem that has stuff on both sides of the = sign. You can't add stuff to one side without subtracting it from the other.

Therefore, things that were harder to obtain became more valuable.

- Entertainment/pleasure:/demand by a person's subjective "worth" of it. Entertainment, pleasure, etc are all subjective things we experience that have no direct physical impact on the world.

- Time/effort: Also, because we don't like spending a lot of effort and time, only to have it not mean anything in the end, some amount of value was placed on time and effort as well. Likewise, things that reduced the amount of effort or time became more valuable.

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Remember the thing I said about the math equations? Well, with digital things, that's not true. You can make an infinite amount of a thing without causing the loss of it in the first place. But you can't just say it's worthless, as the thing was still the result of time and effort.

That's goes directly against of current model of a things worth.

So, with Video games:

- They serve no practical purpose; Worthless in this aspect.
- They have no limited aspect or "scarcity"; ENTIRELY Worthless in this aspect.
- They ARE a major source of entertainment, and are worth a LOT in this aspect.
- A LOT of time and effort goes into making a game, so it's worth a lot here.

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So, what do then?

Well, we know that as you can make an infinite number of these things, you shouldn't be paying for them on a indivual basis, "disc by disc" (I put it in quotes because I don't actually mean discs, as that is worth something by itself, I just can't thing of a equilvent statement for a purely digital purchase.)

Practicality has no bearing on any idea to pay for these, except in case of digital price vs. retail price: digital purchases should cost less, because you aren't paying for a box and a disc.

A price SHOULD be determined by enjoyment, and by time and effort.

As I stated, one way to do this would be to have all profits be made totally by donation. This way, a person wouldn't be paying for the scarcity/practicality of the thing, but they would be paying based on the subjective pleasure they get out of it.

Sadly, it's likely that not enough people would pay enough to make it "profitable" enough in the aspect of time and effort. So, this model really is not any better, and arguably worse than the current.

Another way to do it would be to make the games free, but since the consumers now have more money because they don't pay for games, the CONSUMERS pay the devolpers to MAKE the games, not to buy a already made one.

This also has issues, tough, of course
In my experience, digital games do cost significantly less then physical ones (with some notable and very annoying exceptions).

But, having all pofits based on donation would completly ignore the effort side of the equation, as the donations would end up being based on the subjective enojoyment. While paying the developers up-front would not address how enjoyable the game was, just set a scale for the time/effort they were now willing to put in.

So yeah, I would agrue they are both worse then our current system.
 

incal11

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Oct 24, 2008
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NKnight said:
"Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy" is a preety S*** title. He haven't said anything new, at best he is not the one who brought these up. Piracy bad? Yes. So why not arrest based on IP? Because that's not a good definitive proof of culpability. If someone personal cumputer IP was identified as used for piracy, the owner is probably guilty, PROBABLY. Can you bring a definitive piece of evidence to confirm that? NOOOOOOOOO.... so shut the hell up.

Computer IP is at best a tool to track down suspects, not a conclusive piece of evidence, unfortunately.

Only useful tought is "The solution to piracy should come from publishers offering better ways for customers to enjoy their games, not suing willy-nilly." but that's also not new.

If he says anything that would convince a regular pirate gamer to spend $60 on a game instead of getting it for free on the internet, then I will be impressed.
You haven't answered my last PM, how come ? and I though you disappeared :(
Apparently you forgot the arguments I once made with you...

Personally I won't be convinced to pay 60$ for a new game because most, if not all, of them are just not worth that price. If you think paying only for what you like best will only discourage studios which are not good enough, again :
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110725/04104115231/new-study-piracy-increases-quality-content.shtml
 

hatseflats

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Aug 22, 2011
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ResonanceSD said:
Ok, help me out. What's *a* positive effect of piracy?
Letting people try a game before they buy. Two examples: Skyrim and GTAIV. I thought I wouldn't like them and didn't buy them. A few weeks after the release of GTAIV I realized I could simply pirate the game. I did so, loved it and bought it. Then I was fucked in the ass by GFWL. Anyway, without the option of piracy I wouldn't have bought it. Same for Skyrim. I like Morrowind, didn't like Oblivion and thought Skyrim was going to be the game Oblivion should've been - which is the sort of game I actually don't really like. But I was on the fence, doubted whether it was really not worth the buy, pirated it, liked it and bought it. Those are the only two games I pirated during the last two years. Two extra sales at full price. (not saying this is true for everybody, just an example of a possible positive effect of piracy).
Besides that, piracy might lead to brand awareness and might help unknown, innovative franchises to gain momentum. People are conservative in their buying new games, for ?50 is a lot of money to risk on a game they might not like. A new game might have difficulty selling at first, but a sequel can be very successful due to people being familiar with the franchise because of their pirating the first game. Not saying these effects are large, but they are possible. And that's the problem with piracy: there are several positive and negative effects and determining which are more important than others is key. For that you need quantitative measurement.

Difficulty with piracy is that quantitative measurement of the total effect (positive and negative) is almost impossible. For instance, how to measure the effect of piracy on sales? Let's say I pirate a game. Does that equal a lost sale? That's very important to determine, but also impossible, for one would need to observe an action I can't possibly take: my behaviour if no piracy is possible. I might pirate games I would never have bought even if no piracy is possible (= no lost sales). I might pirate games which I would be willing to pay for but wouldn't be able to afford (= no lost sales). I might pirate games I would be willing and able to afford (= lost sales). It's impossible to determine which of these options is true for my pirating games. This would require a comparison with a situation where no piracy is possible, and there is no such situation.
 

incal11

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Oct 24, 2008
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The challenge is on :)
Smash my arguments whithout sidestepping them and you will have my admiration and respect.

Dastardly said:
And now we are treated to the sounds of:

"It's not a lost sale, because they were never going to buy it anyway." (unverifiable ex-post-facto justification)
That some buy it after they downloaded it is verifiable however, even if it clashes with your concept of human nature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg
https://torrentfreak.com/book-authors-see-bittorrent-as-a-promotional-tool-080428/
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37563/Unity_Piracy_Driving_Huge_Growth_In_Asian_Regions.php
https://torrentfreak.com/paulo-coelho-supports-the-pirate-bay-090415/
http://new-media.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/2010/10/piracy-trumps-obscurity-again/
http://amitay.us/blog/files/piracy_doubled_my_app_sales.php

"Stop calling it theft. The publisher is not denied access or deprived of any property." (a "no true Scotsman" regarding the definition of "theft")
Saying that no honest person share what they have or ever accept others' generosity is a no true scotsman too.

"Well the publishers need to stop being greedy, and maybe people will support them." (a deflection and complete change of topic. could be called "the Robin Hood defense.")
Many are stupid enough to actually use that argument, sadly. It is a deformation of "The publishers need to make themselves popular, and surely more people will support them".
Now I wait for your evidence that making yourself popular makes you less likely to be paid. Links please.

"If they made better games, maybe people wouldn't pirate." (logically inside-out, since any improvement to the game itself would equally improve the pirated copy. No disincentive is established.)
Same, a deformation of "if they made better games they would be better rewarded"
http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-tons-more-music-than-average-folks.ars
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/anime-piracy-and-streaming-found-to-increase-dvd-sales-in-japan-2011027/
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/movie-industry-bins-report-proving-pirates-are-great-consumers-20110720/
On top of the links I gave before.

"People only pirate because of DRM." (reversal of the actual state of cause-effect, since DRM measures were created as a reaction to piracy, and DRM-less games are still frequently pirated)
In fact DRMs cause only some people to download, most often after they bought the game and got fed up with the security measures. To say that everyone download without paying just because of the DRMs is indeed stupid, and in fact I have not seen this argument used as you present it very often.

Trololols and etc.
Hope you take the time to answer.
 

gagoogady

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Apr 1, 2012
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ok im curious as to whether or not anyone agrees with me on this subject; say one wants an out dated game, like...I dunno Battletoads and Double Dragons for the SNES, it hasn't been remade, re-released, or redone in anyway, nor is it being sold anywhere but in a flea market or on Ebay. downloading a copy with emulator shouldn't harm the company who made the game in anyway, in this situation I believe its okay to "pirate" yourself a copy.