Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

[RatRace123]

Well, I agree with him. Not that that's saying much though.

This argument has gone on and will go on, hell God could come down from Heaven in a fiery blaze and give his opinion on it and the argument would still go on.

 

[lancar]

The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.

And no amount of backwards logic will ever equate the crime of "theft" to "copyright infringement". You may try, and by god do some people try this ALOT, but it will still never make it true no matter how much you wish for it.

Also, the degree of impact of piracy is debatable as there is no clear correlation between lost sales and pirated copies (unless you're a mindreader?).

These may be tired arguments, but that doesn't make them any less true.


The Lawyer fellow do have a reasonable take on how to limit piracy though. Preying on the common gamer weakness of laziness is a savvy practice, and couple it with limited time offers to get the games significantly cheaper than the prohibitively expensive normal retail prices and you got yourself a recepie for success.
Valve, with Steam, is tackling this problem the correct way.
EA & Ubisoft, with cutting content into DLC and rigging DRM everywhere, are NOT.

CD Projekt, with their DRM free policy, I fear are a bit naive. There is no point in overprotecting something that will be instantly cracked anyway, but there should still be something small in place to stir the laziness gene. If it's not there, you can't exploit it and you'll rely on pure goodwill. We're not a very nice species, so this isn't a very sensible approach imho.
...even if that approach made me pre-order The Witcher 2.

 

[Woodsey]

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

So you're suggesting there's no financial loss from putting money into the game and not seeing a return on all the people who consume it? Would you not perceive a financial loss if people were stealing physical copies by the boat load?

No, a pirated copy doesn't necessarily equate to a lost sale, but it sure as shit doesn't guarantee a purchase.

 

[Gincairn]

What concerns me more, looking at the most pirated games list, Modern Warfare 3 still beat out Battlefield 3 there.

OT: I'm still not sure where I stand on this issue, it's not something that I do but at the same time I understand why some people do (too lazy to work, no money, etc etc we've all heard the excuses)

I don't believe that piracy is a good and valid reason to hike up prices, nor is it a good reason for ridiculous DRM to be installed, they just seem like a way of irritating the paying customers (kind of like the anti-piracy messages at the start of paid for DVD's).
In fact I had this bite me in the ass the other night, playing Battlefield 3 on the PS3, I got kicked out of my single player campaign because I had lost connection to the EA servers. Why should a console game require an internet connection for a single player experience? That's just moronic.

As to how to combat it, a few of you are saying Demos, that works to a certain degree, but how many times have you downloaded a demo, played the 5 minutes they allow or seen a small piece of the game (not enough to actually fully experience it) and the demo ends, case in point Heavenly Sword, Mirror's Edge and Brutal Legend to name a few, only to buy the game and discover that it's absolute shite?

Currently the PS3 market seems to have a good way of tackling this in the form of full game trials, you download the whole game, and you have a 1 hour timer, the whole thing is open to you and allows full access to everything you would get from the disc version, it's a great way of getting around the "We need a demo" or "The demo wasn't long enough" argument.

The other alternative is to wait, prices do drop eventually and if you use a service like Steam or Onlive you can pick up new games for peanuts, again as an example Deus Ex HR for 70p when I got it on Onlive, Mafia 2 and Orcs must die for under a fiver also on Onlive. and Entire bundles of Indie titles through steam on various sales.

There ARE solutions out there, they just need to be found, perfected and then used industry wide.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

CD Projekt, with their DRM free policy, I fear are a bit naive.

Seeing as they've grown from a small Polish game localisation studio to the largest distributor in Eastern Europe and made enough scratch to launch a few game development studios and try their hand at publishing as well, I wouldn't be too worried about their approach.

 

[Sporky111]

I'm just glad he's calling for a solution to come from the market and not from lawyers. About time somebody brought that up.

Lower the price of games, reward legitimate consumers with incentive to purchase instead of punishing them with DRM.

 

[Baldr]

How does a lawyer not understand the difference between 'a lost sale' and 'a lost potential sale'. If piracy equalled a lost sale then yes, it would be near the same level as thievery. (not quite the same because no actual content was stolen, so there's no preventing someone else from buying it.) As it stands, that simply isn't the case.

Piracy means that a potential sale MAY not occur. There's no saying a pirate won't like the game and buy it. Just like there's no saying that without the means to pirate it, the pirate would have bought it.

Possible loss of a potential sale =/= loss of profit.

To state other wise in any way shape or form is disingenuous. Oh wait, we're talking about a lawyer... Of-course it's disingenuous.

If someone playing a game that was all hard work went into making for that players enjoyment and did not pay for it. That is a direct loss of sale, whether the person was "intending" to pay or not.

 

[Caverat]

I don't see how anyone with a brain can seriously hold the belief that a pirated game leads to a sale later.

umm. we believe that because it DOES happen. here's a freakin list.

minecraft
civ 5
portal
portal 2
oblivion
fallout 3
fallout new vegas
cave story
terraria
and many many more.

you see, not everyone has the income to throw down $60 on a game that you have NO WAY of recouping your loss if it's terrible. this is not a "boo hoo i'm poor" argument, it's a "pc gamers have no consumer protection" argument. if i buy a game for PC, 9 times out of 10 i'm stuck with it, no matter how much it sucks. i can't return it, i can't resell it, nothin. THIS is the best (and probably only good) reason i've heard for pirating.

so the best solution to combat piracy?? CONSUMER PROTECTIONS. allow us to resell our games. allow us to return our games. put out demos. it's a sad world we live in where publishers can put out sh*t games and anyone foolish enough to buy it is stuck with a loss. it's unethical. what other product besides PC games (and other digital media) can you do NOTHING to get even some of your money back if you're not happy with it? food? no. clothing? no. furniture, appliances, cosmetics, entertainment, electronics, utensils, services, medicine, office supplies?? no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO. you could return/exchange ANY of these product for most if not ALL your money if you're not satisfied with them. it's because PC gamers are pissed off at being taken advantage of that piracy is booming the way it is today (at least, in my opinion).

/rant

It's still not a good reason, you are not entitled to access the product, deciding that since you are limited in recourse after you decide you don't like a product is not an good excuse to pirate, it is a childish one. If a dev doesn't release a demo for their product, and you don't know if you'll like it or not, don't buy it.

You aren't entitled to access a full copy of that product for free, that is not a consumer's right, it's unethical for you to do so. As to your claim of being able to return any other product, well, there are places where sales are final. Shoes, most places will not accept returns of shoes worn outdoors(You know, the situation you're most likely to wear shoes.)

Yes, a lot of places will accept returns/exchanges of random shit. That is done for reasons other than consumer rights, as they aren't required to accept them. They are more concerned with maintaining a positive relationship with their customer, repeat business being more profitable in the long run than the loss of a return. This isn't done with opened electronic goods because they have no way of knowing if the material was copied or if the serial # was used, it sucks, but it wouldn't be fair to another customer to buy it and be unable to use it because the serial was already in use. Also, it wouldn't be fair for you to get your money back if you had copied the product.

It makes sense that digital merchandise is treated differently with regards to returns, it is silly to suggest otherwise. You can't buy a shirt, produce an exact copy of that same shirt just from possessing it, and return the original for a refund. If you could, they wouldn't accept returns of those either.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Wow another one that dose not get it. IMO at the end of the day its about information and inspiration which can not be defined thus all information needs to be traded freely. However those that own the IP should be the only ones to profit any off its trade.

Right now the system in place is a mess and getting worse so I say most copy right law is a scoff law you can ignore.

I'd like to call it cigital disobedience.

http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/2011/12/31/what-is-cigital-disobedience/

So you're effectively against second-hand sales too?

No either grandfather it in or tax it 10% and funnel the money to the IP owners, the real problem is torrent/sharing sites making money off donations and ad revenue IMO that needs to end.

 

[team star pug]

The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115003-TorrentFreak-Reveals-Top-Pirated-Games-of-2011]. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.

And now we are treated to the sounds of:

"It's not a lost sale, because they were never going to buy it anyway." (unverifiable ex-post-facto justification)

I swear, a guy in my english class (Patrick Lagan) give that same answer to the suggestion of music piracy, but he said "It's ok to steal if you don't want to pay".

 

[Entourian]

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

As I see it, the two polar notions that piracy is always a lost sale and that piracy is never effectively a financial loss are what is truly lacking logic. The truth is in fact somewhere in the middle.

You are correct it is not a loss to the developer/publisher. It is more of monetary stagnation since the developer is not being deprived of a product nor are they given any money. The entire idea that a product is being stolen, since the product is entirely digital, is wrong it would be closer to a copy and paste. Actual theft would walking into a store and taking a copy off of the shelf and taking it home with out paying.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Even though Purewal is a lawyer and should therefor be on board for litigation solving all problems, he's also a gamer.

Just sayian.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Piracy isn't the issue really, it's the DRM that is. I don't pirate games unless they are out of print, but I take offense to any DRM.

He applauds platforms like Steam that are a form of DRM which don't slap paying customers in the face.

Eh, mileage may vary on that point. Just ask anyone who has found themselves unable to play one of their saved games when their internet connection isn't working. Even in "offline mode".

Ignoring that saved games aren't the issue. Steam doesn't save your games online, that's an optional backup system. I don't know what you're talking about.

Point is that Steam allows you to install a game as many times as you want, updated, and allows you to play without a direct connection to the internet. They have no control over what you want to do with your saved games.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Legally, you can't work in 'what ifs'. A company can't say 'Oh they might have bought it if they couldn't pirate it. So we've lost a sale.' That's just blatant bullshit.

Yes they can. That's why they can sue people who distribute music for like 22500x the value of the song. (I pulled that number out of my ass, but it was some huge number like that)

 

[Canadish]

Neil Gaiman talks to the Open Rights Group about how the internet affects the books and publishing industry.

Spoiler

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI[/youtube]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI
In case the embedded video is not working.

Worth listening to. From someone who is "suffering" from these dastardly pirates, trying to ruin everyone's career.

Someone already said it earlier. This lawyer is just trying to present a very grey issue as something black and white. Then this article shows up. It's biased and misleading.

[snip]

I'd just like to add. This is a great post.

EDIT: Because the difference is essentially between a criminal and civil case. Would you rather jail time, or the current practice of fining people we do catch breaching copyright for multiple millions of dollars?

Both system's are completely insane and utterly draconian. And ultimately, both only serve to fuel to the fire.

 

[ResonanceSD]

So, copyright infringement, that's fine then, yeah?

EDIT: Because the difference is essentially between a criminal and civil case. Would you rather jail time, or the current practice of fining people we do catch breaching copyright for multiple millions of dollars?

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I bet less then like 30% of pirates would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it. I hate how the argument says pirating is stealing from the developer. The developer loses nothing except a possible gain which doesn't really count. Is deciding you don't want to buy a game because you played it at a friends illegal? It means the developers lost a sale, you must be a terrible person.
Before I get a warning I still disagree with piracy, just explaining how I hate that argument.

 

[Canadish]

Before I get a warning I still disagree with piracy, just explaining how I hate that argument.

Wow. That censorship.

Sure is feeling North Korea in here.

 

[MysticToast]

Bulletstorm is the lastest I have gotten (Not long after release and I was both horrified and relieved).

You do it because you're a lazy-ass gamer, who puts your own immediate needs ahead of those who actually did the work to make the game.

Case in point: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/04/04/bulletstorm-pc-demo-now-out-on-steam-and-gfwl/

There ARE demo versions, you were just too damned lazy/impatient to bother finding them.

"Not long after release"

Looks like you were too lazy (Edit: Yes, that was a little jab at you insulting him, it was meant to be a thing of "see, doesn't feel good when someone insults you does it" post, figured i'd clear that up) to read through his post properly. The demo didn't come out on the PC until about two months after.

On an on topic note, what argument did he destroy exactly? Is it just because he has a legal degree that the same argument now magically means more?

Man.. now that's funny -- attempting to berate somebody for not reading thoroughly when it's pretty clear that the only one who has a problem reading thoroughly here is you. And because you probably haven't read this message thoroughly either, I'll just point out I bolded some stuff for you.

I insult people who deserve it, moron. Someone admitting flat out that they pirated a game because they're simply too self-entitled to wait to see if a demo comes out is certainly deserving of that.

Beyond that, however, even if a demo had NEVER come out, that still gives the prick no right to download the game. He's certainly free to not purchase it, and to tell the company that without a demo he won't purchase it. And in fact, if we want to encourage demos, that's the exact thing he SHOULD be doing -- not just downloading a copy anyway and using that to decide.

Tell me, at what point should he pay the movie theatre for a ticket once he's gone in and sat down? Or perhaps he should just sneak into clubs and decide after he's watched the band for a while whether it's worth paying the cover charge? Here's a thought, instead of either of those, why not act like a responsible human being and NOT decide his desires for entertainment supersede the rights of developers to charge a price for their product and release/not release demos if they want?

I like you. You speak with logic and reason and you're not even afraid to show it.

OT: Seriously, this guy pretty much says what I think about piracy.

 

[lancar]

CD Projekt, with their DRM free policy, I fear are a bit naive.

Seeing as they've grown from a small Polish game localisation studio to the largest distributor in Eastern Europe and made enough scratch to launch a few game development studios and try their hand at publishing as well, I wouldn't be too worried about their approach.

Yes, I know about their progress. I've been following it with no small degree of interest due to their rather unique approach to the subject, and I admit it's heartening to see them do well for themselves.
Yet we also both know they've been going after the ones that do pirate their games, so they do take part in the system of punishment for piracy, which of course they have every right to do.

The carrot and stick.
Their carrot is DRM free games which garners goodwill, the stick is punishing those who violate their trust.
Yet, only the smallest hoop to jump through would, imho, drastically reduce the size of the stick needed (as it'd stop the ignorant & put a nice sign on the game saying "pirating this is illegal"), and this is why I can't completely get behind their approach.

But then again, when all is said and done, this is the PR image they've decided to brand themselves with. To forsake it now would incur a backlash, so for the time being their best option is probably to just roll with it.