League of Legends Tournament: LGBT Players Have "Unfair Advantage" - Update

rokkolpo

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deth2munkies said:
Basically what they're scared of is a male LPL team suddenly identifying themselves as female to just clean up the tournament. I mean that's the problem with gendered tournaments nowadays. The whole point is to get women into playing LoL at a high level and get some more exposure to hopefully fix the 100% male pro scene. You can't really do that if guys exploit the ridiculous sensitivity displayed to the issue by just claiming they've always identified as female. It's not something you can actually refute since it's an internal state of mind, and trying to find actual brightlines is just a minefield to the politically correct.

It sucks, but some kind of rule like this is a necessity in gendered tournaments in order to preserve the integrity of the event. It has nothing to do with suggesting that females are worse at gaming or anything like that. Merely that they're underrepresented currently, and the entire point of the tournament is to give female teams exposure to hopefully go pro and bring some diversity to the scene.

EDIT: The best way to actually do this without causing a fuss is a simple "may disqualify any team for any reason" clause, which would let them spontaneously stop this kind of abuse, but not have to seem intolerant.
Quoted for truth. It does make sense they would want to do something like this.

OT: I don't get why the term LBGT is used. Because the term is too broad for a female only competition. I get that they're trying to root out the guys claiming to identify as female (because people can lie for prize money) but also excluding gay people seems weird.
 

Lightknight

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Aaron Sylvester said:
This is somewhat vaguely true to some extent, although very poorly thought/worded from the tournament organiser.

For example, imagine if you had a female-only Street Fighter IV tournament...and this person was allowed to enter:



Ricky Ortiz is a top 10 player currently in the process of becoming a transgender female. I have absolutely no doubts he/she would DESTROY all cis-female players who entered said tournament. Not even the slightest doubt. It would be extremely unfair in all definition of the word.

It's somewhat similar to the issue of transgender females being allowed to enter female sports competitions.
Keep in mind that from what I read they also included Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals. They just said LGBT. I agree with you on the transgendered component for the reasons I stated at the top of this page (assuming this post doesn't pop me into the next page). But as far as I can tell there are no such inherent disparities in girls that like other girls. What's more is did this mean the teams can have one gay man on their lineup? Do they not understand that LGBT isn't just transgendered people?

Ickorus said:
Because women are worse at video games apparently.
There's no lack of evidence for this. What contributes to it is of course up for debate (e.g. they feel pressured not to enter, or whatever)...but as it currently stands women are almost non-existent at higher levels of tournament play in most (if not all) genres.
One contributing component is the one I stated above. That males have a natural advantage in reaction times by a fair margin and that reaction time disparity is highest to visual cues (aka vidya games).

Additionally, differences in how we process spatial awareness also differ with males having the advantage. Even mythbusters tackled and confirmed that bit. Why this would translate into being able to manipulate a 3D environment on a 2D interface should be obvious.

The plus side is that women have other qualities that men don't. Like the ability to multi-task at a higher level than most men. So there must be some sort of trade off there. I wonder if that means that some games can be made that require so much multi-tasking as to give women the advantage or if that reaction time compensates too much?
 

Dragonlayer

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I would *love* to sit down for a pleasant lunchtime chat with the people who made this decision, just to listen to the insane anti-logic they employed when doing so.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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i can see the problem with transgender women being included but i cant see how bisexual or homosexual women might have an unfair advantage in any way shape or form
 

Strazdas

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Doom972 said:
We seem to have a misunderstanding here. Asking about sexual orientation doesn't mean asking "Are you male or female?", which is a reasonable question. Asking about sexual orientation means asking "Are you straight or gay?".
No, i understand what you meant. i just dont agree with you.
Risingblade said:
Strazdas said:
Risingblade said:
The reason is because there are barely any female players in the tournament leagues. Pretty much 0 in the world championships, so pretty much the idea was probably to get more women involved in pro play.
so instead of having sports where the best people win we must have sports that made sure that a number of females win because gender quotas.
What the hell is wrong with you? There's already a league for the best teams in the world, the whole point of these tournaments is to give attention to female players. We can easily have both.
So the whole point of this tournament is to be discriminatory against men? nothing new i guess.

Heres the deal. if the players were good, they would get attention regardless of thier gender. if they arent good, artificial attention wont make them better.

Aaron Sylvester said:
Ricky Ortiz is a top 10 player currently in the process of becoming a transgender female. I have absolutely no doubts he/she would DESTROY all cis-female players who entered said tournament. Not even the slightest doubt. It would be extremely unfair in all definition of the word.
so what you are saying is that females suck at videogames?

Because if that is false then your whole premise is false.
 

Doom972

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Strazdas said:
Doom972 said:
We seem to have a misunderstanding here. Asking about sexual orientation doesn't mean asking "Are you male or female?", which is a reasonable question. Asking about sexual orientation means asking "Are you straight or gay?".
No, i understand what you meant. i just dont agree with you.
So, if a random guy walks up to you in the street and asks you "Do you fuck men or women?" you'll just answer his question. Makes perfect sense.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Sniper Team 4 said:
Oh come on! They can't even tell us what the advantages are? Because I really want to know. I am honestly curious as to what type of crazy theory people came up with that says liking the same sex gives you an advantage in video games.
I think they're referring to trans women who still have their male bodily advantages, such as greater hand eye coordination and spacial awareness, but then again, I don't know what the effect differing chemistries of trans and normal brains have on such advantages. It's likely that, since the LGBT community like to present themselves as a single conglomeration, the tournament opted to err on the side of caution and ban the entire lot of them.

This reminds me of the controversy surrounding a transgendered MMA fighter who fought in the woman's league, despite being technically biologically male. I don't think I need to explain why people might have an issue with that.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Did anyone else notice this as well?:

"...recently announced that it would be running an "Iron Solari all-feminine tournament" in the region"

followed by:

"We always want to make sure we are able to have an inclusive environment where no one feels left out,"

So we want an inclusive environment where no one feels left out, but 50% of the population aren't allowed to participate because they're cis-gendered males?

Anyway, I get that there are slight differences in hand-eye coordination and reaction time and what-not, but the way I look at it is to hell with it; just make these tournaments open to everyone and let anyone participate. You can wargame how to make the playing field 'level and fair' till you're blue in the face, at some point you just have to acknowledge that things are never going to be 100% level or 100% fair, and just let people play the game.
 

Therumancer

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Badly reported article, though to be fair this has happened on so many levels that it's not surprising it trickled down here. On some levels this kind of demonstrates the problems with the liberal bias in gaming journalism and how it causes problems.

My source on this one is people who are apparently in the tournament and also play MMOS and such who have been going on about what a mess this has become, and how it should never have been an issue to begin with, but now that it has been one and a big gaming tournament has backed down for all the wrong reasons, pro-gaming might have just been hurt as a whole.

The bottom line here is this. Boys and girls are wired differently in ways that go beyond who you have sex with, guys tend to be far more aggressive, more resilient, and even to have better competitive reflexes. Competitions tend to separate the genders based on different abilities, especially at a professional level, in some sports men and women even wind up competing in radically different types of events. In Gymnastics for example men and women tend to perform very differently and to be fair tend to be rated for different things.

Just because you emotionally or sexually identify with the other gender does NOT mean you suddenly lose or gain genetic gifts or potential. Oddly a point the LGBT community makes itself in saying more often or not that you shouldn't treat anyone differently. Of course recently it's turned into a case where liberalism has turned it to arguments that people should be treated according to whatever gender definition benefits them most at the time. Oddly when applied to competition this means one could argue a bunch of gay men should all be allowed to play in women's leagues if they actually identify as female... we should say ignore some 6'4" boy going aggressively against girls half his size if he insists his soul's name is Lucy.

Now, I am quite aware we are talking E-sports here and the first reflex for many is to say "well, this is online so none of those kinds of arguments are especially relevant". Actually they are. Gaming has already made it quite clear women can't seriously compete with guys when it gets serious. One of the big "issues" of gaming today is the "hostility" women face especially in competitive games where people trash talk them, and trash talking means using everything, including someone's gender, to get any kind of edge you can by ruffling or distracting them. Indeed intimidation is PART of competition of pretty much every sort, a champion doesn't just need the relevant tools to play, but the aggressive mindset and thick skin to play the other people involved. A lot of the greatest athletes and competitors of all time got there by their mindset and being able to screw with their opponents. Perhaps the greatest example of this being Ali's "Rope A Dope" on Foreman (who otherwise probably would have beaten it) combined with how George's mind was arguably destroyed by being outplayed by Ali. Speaking of which professional fighters are infamous for all the crap they say about each other all the time in general. George, especially vintage George, was NOT a nice man. The point is that all of this is part of the game. Women however simply cannot take it, especially when their gender is attacked then tend to usually not be very thin skinned about it. Tell some dude your going to rape him and he's going to laugh at you and fire back, tell that to a girl and she's likely to get freaked out and go crying to the admins or the liberal media. It's not that sexual assault is a "good" thing by any means but it's an equal threat to either, what's different is the reaction and how seriously it's taken. Given that a "killer instinct" and this kind of mind gaming is part of competition it's easier to separate the girls from the guys into their own leagues... if you've ever wondered what all the "courage" (no fear, fear nothing, etc...) stuff in sports goods advertising is from, it's because of the attitude needed to be a serious competitor, you need to be iron within as well as without... if all you have to do is imply you might rape a girl to totally throw her off her game, obviously she's lacking the iron within since she's scared of you on some level. Some dude tells another dude online that he's going to rape and dominate him what happens? Not much the guy on the receiving end either ignores it, or makes some nasty comment back.


Basically you can't have all these "gamer grrls" organizations and women only tournaments and organizations for multiplayer (Gamerchix, etc...) and take it seriously if your going to say it doesn't matter.

At any rate in this context, some dude who thinks of himself as girl is still a dude, he has all his dude parts, he has his dude strength, his dude size, and his dude brain and biochemistry as many people will point out (often in pro-gay defenses) identifying as a girl makes him no less of a man so to speak. As a result when he goes to town with the intimidation the person on the other side sees at as a guy. What's more he's still going to be a lot more aggressive, especially if interested in competition and playing to full capacity (which can peak out higher) than any real girl would.

The way this was explained to me when I heard people going on about it is that this is about women, who have in many cases gone to great lengths to establish their own competitive circuits to get away from guys and the above issues, not wanting to have guys involved. Some girl implies she's going to hunt you down and beat you up after the game to another girl and it's fair game. Some dude born "Steve" with arms the size of tree trunks says the same thing it tends to mean a lot more even if he insists his soul's name is "Sally".

What's more as an aside purely from me, on the occasions when I've looked into such things the bottom line is that girls tend to be far less proficient on the competitive circuits than guys, especially when you start looking at all girl teams trying to compete in a general sense. The last time I looked into it was a while back we had a team of girls called "Team Siren" running around harassing other players (beyond competitive intimidation) and racking up truly massive numbers of complaints which were never addressed because they kept playing the "Grrls" card while male and mixed teams were getting serious sanctions without anywhere near the same level of behavior or complaints. In looking into things it turned out "Team Siren" while one of the better known/infamous girl teams wasn't even all that highly ranked (which kind of made it funny that they were getting defenders claiming there was some kind of sexist conspiracy to keep them down).


My basic attitude right now is that if people want to hold all-girl, or all-guy tournaments more power to them, and continue to define gender by what kind of body you occupy, that's fine. In my opinion if the LGBT community doesn't like the way things are they should do exactly what the ladies did and try and get the support for their own leagues. Needless to say those pushing for female-exclusive leagues who seem to be at the root of this don't like being forced to accept people they don't want, and were not fighting for, and who like it or not have all the traits they wanted to get away from.

Of course those sponsoring this tournament in the Philippines have the right to set their own rules, but I anticipate this is going to backfire when and if the gamer girls choose to stop supporting the event in the future. Whether that will happen or not, remains to be seen.

Also perhaps some of the ladies here might be able to answer the question but how to organizations like "Da Valkyries" (if they are still around), or that X-box based "Gamer Chicks" thing for women to be able to game exclusively with other women deal with this? Do they accept male members if they claim to identify with the other gender? If some dude say shows up for Gamerchicks night as a really obvious dude but identifies as "Shevaun" saying he's a girl inside and the name makes him feel pretty, and then awkwardly talks about how girly he is (perhaps going into some disturbing stuff about how much he wishes he could have a period and asking others to describe it or whatever) what's the reaction? Does the fiery wrath of the admins fall upon "Shevaun" or is this accepted as long as this guy claims he's a dude inside and acts sufficiently girly (however you might want to define that). Given that it is women's gamer organizations who have pushed for there to be tournaments like the one in question, at the end of the day those are the people that will need to be convinced.

While it's not likely to happen IMO as one person in an STO chat put it "Brace for impact captain, the GLBT community and the feminists are about to open fire on each other, it's going to be one hell of a shockwave"... I think we might be heading there soon given the way this has been explained to me (with the reasoning I mentioned above) and just as interestingly for "Gamersgate" watchers it does seem the liberal gaming media might be setting a pecking order of priorities where LGBT come before women in terms of what cause to prioritize.

Probably not one of my more popular posts, but this is my (rambling) thoughts and how things have been explained to me. In part I'm writing to correct the responses saying that "no reason has been given for this" or that the whole "competitive advantage" thing sounds like a weak excuse. Apparently there was quite a bit said around it and some clear reasoning. At the end of the day it's pretty much women wanting to keep something women only, as opposed to a bunch of generally anti-gay sorts attacking this because they dislike or oppose gays for whatever reason. It's not one of those kinds of battles.
 

Someone Depressing

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What advantage?

If I have mind control or technomancy or something like that and nobody's ever told me, then I'm going to be pissed.

...No, seriously. I'm genuinely very curious. I want to know. I want a good reason, if one can even be salvaged from this horrible discriminatory statement.
 

San Martin

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So men have better reaction times and hand-eye coordination?

My God, are there ANY physical or psychological advantages to being a woman?

I'm a feminist, but I'm also bloody grateful that I wasn't born female because it looks awful!
 

Zefar

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I like how they went.

"We always want to make sure we are able to have an inclusive environment where no one feels left out, and of course for everybody to enjoy,"
Then decides, you know what, THAT group of people are not allowed to enter. It is exactly like saying "I'm not racist buuuut"

At least they removed it. But it honestly shouldn't have happened in the first place.
 

Silvanus

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Maybe I should get into LoL, if my superpowers will give me an advantage.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Strazdas said:
Aaron Sylvester said:
Ricky Ortiz is a top 10 player currently in the process of becoming a transgender female. I have absolutely no doubts he/she would DESTROY all cis-female players who entered said tournament. Not even the slightest doubt. It would be extremely unfair in all definition of the word.
so what you are saying is that females suck at videogames?

Because if that is false then your whole premise is false.

Whatever implications that may hold, his statement is factually correct when it comes to this person and sf4. No female player has ever risen to the heights Ricky Ortiz has. We're talking multiple top 8 in the entire world placements here. We have tournament data from the past 7-8 years to base this off of. Sure, there's of course a "few" women who would hold their ground but they'd still lose horribly cause everyone other than the other very few top 8 regulars are the only ones capable of winning against Ortiz.


Unlike DOTAs, fighting games have just a handful of people who always win everything and are way above everyone else. There's not as many tourneys and they're not as big so the playerbase is comparatively tiny (just a couple thousand participants go for EVO's biggest game) so due to that, once you're one of those top people you can easily know who can and who can't beat you. Who is and who isn't on your level, etc.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Baffle said:
Dreiko said:
Whatever implications that may hold, his statement is factually correct when it comes to this person and sf4. No female player has ever risen to the heights Ricky Ortiz has. We're talking multiple top 8 in the entire world placements here. We have tournament data from the past 7-8 years to base this off of. Sure, there's of course a "few" women who would hold their ground but they'd still lose horribly cause everyone other than the other very few top 8 regulars are the only ones capable of winning against Ortiz.
Is it not just ha-do-ken spamming, or trapping them in the corner with Blanka's electricity crap that he learned from electric eels?.

Nope. It's more like speed-chess that you play while chasing a chicken around, while trying to avoid darts that someone's throwing at you. The fighting game scene is much harder to penetrate and become good at than DOTAs and due to this it's smaller.


Also, not trying to be mean but this kind of description would offend a WHOLE LOT of people. I thankfully play fighting games that are not street fighter (but I follow all the scene since we're all a family, that's the good aspect of having a smaller community) so those tactics are completely nonexistent in the stuff I'm competitive about so I don't get offended but I think it's prudent to bring it to your attention in the future. It'd be like saying "LoL is nothing other than clicking on your foe randomly until he dies". Yes, that degree of wrong and ignorant :p.


Here's an idea of what I play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgNs2c95SmM


Hope it shakes the impression of "spamming hadoukens" :p.
 

Evil Smurf

Admin of Catoholics Anonymous
Nov 11, 2011
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I can't stand bigots, they are the bird shit, on the car door of life. This is what gives the impression that gamers are all toxic cunts, don't be a bigot, don't be a ****.

Also, escapists, stop misgendering people!