Leave me alone PC gamers!

[Drizzitdude]

Is a pc better? Yes. Should we make other people feel like complete and utter shit because of it? No. I mean really there is very few excuses to making other people feel like shit simply because they have to work on a budget or prefer a controller (which I do, despite being a mostly pc gamer) and lets not act like consoles haven't advanced the market as well. For all the problems the consoles can cause the gaming market, they made gaming big and wide spread and without them we wouldn't have nearly as big of a universal gaming community as we do today. Things advance slower with consoles to be sure and it even hampers the progress of other forms of gaming but hey its still SOME progress.

Tl;dr: yes consoles are overall better and easier to use, doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it.

 

[Something Amyss]

If people stopped supporting shitty ports and "dumbed down" or "inferior" consolised games, they wouldn't end up on the PC.

Thank you for proving my point in a post aimed at negating my point, sir.

If that proves your point, your point was the exact opposite of your words.

Ive used a play and charge kit to play on the PC before...

No you haven't. You are confused or mistaken. Microsoft, Wikipedia, and the internet at large say you're wrong. Not to mention personal experience.

The Play and Charge kit is just a power cord for the wireless controller. It does not add wired functionality.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Is a pc better? Yes. Should we make other people feel like complete and utter shit because of it? No.

Except that its pretty much the other way round. Its not PC users mocking console users, its console users picking fights by demanding everyone recognise that consoles are better then PCs. An then its console players who take umbrage when PC players point out that consoles are literally dumbed down, strongly content locked laptops, that lack for the range of a real PC.

If console players don't like the fact that PC's are superior, then maybe they should stop trying to pick fights by saying things they are objectively wrong. Seriously every single one of these fights goes a little like this:

Ice Advocate: Ice is colder then liquid nitrogen

Objective Observer: No its not & here is all the data that shows that ice is not colder then liquid nitrogen.

Ice Advocate: But ice comes in light to carry trays

Objective Observer: Its still not colder

Ice Advocate: Ice is cheaper

Objective Observer: Its still not colder

etc etc.

Scuse me to intervene, and please, do keep going, but the example is not a good one.
Ice can be colder than liquid litrogen, the fact that water freezes at 0°C does not mean that ice always has a temperature of 0°C.
You could very well have some ice cooled to temperatures below -200°C, which would, upon being compared to liquid nitrogen, which could have been warmed to -198°C (boiling point is -196°C), prove itself to be colder.
If you truly want your example to work, you should use cold water and liquid nitrogen, because getting liquid water cooler than -200°C is a real challenge.

But please carry on.

 

[Vault101]

Except that its pretty much the other way round. Its not PC users mocking console users, its console users picking fights by demanding everyone recognise that consoles are better then PCs.

really? because I honestly havn't seen that...least not as dramatic as your making it out to be

around here its really "they bother have their pros/cons" at worst

 

[Dr Hammer]

Is this really over? No more pointless arguing about who's consumer choice/taste in platforms is better/worse? Have the forces of tolerance and acceptance really won?

 

[FitScotGaymer]

I think that the hostility some PC gamers have towards consoles is justified, but its not really the fault of console players per se.

Consoles are pretty much never going to be able to compete with the PC where it is strong; and weirdly for some reason the console makers are trying to make this latest gen of consoles do exactly that.
And it just wont work.

The console makers have for the last few years made a strong push to get publishers and evelopers over to the main consoles and away from PC as part of that whole competition thing that they have going.

The consoles strength used to be that it was cheap, and while not as powerful as most PCs had a standard format that meant everyone (public) could use it and everyone (Developers) could create for it.
Which added to the consoles appeal as well because the standardisation meant a much bigger gaming catalogue (eventually) than what the PC has for any given year/generation.

But now with consoles trying to do what PCs do they have lost the advantages that they had as a console and become little more than bad PCs.

This drive to get everyone over to Consoles has meant that there isnt really such a thing as a PC exclusive game anymore (even though the PC lends itself better to cerain genres of game than the console does) and a lot of the games that really ought to be on PC we either don't get at all or we get a really bad dumbed down port of the console version.
Some PC gamers find it very frustrating because they remember the days of yore when the PC got really good exclusives, or at least Devs would put a little bit of effort into porting the game to PC (Fable 1's port to PC was probably the last decent PC port that I can recall).

I am not excusing it but it is sorta understandable.

 

[Dr Hammer]

The console makers have for the last few years made a strong push to get publishers and developers over to the main consoles and away from PC as part of that whole competition thing that they have going.

The consoles strength used to be that it was cheap, and while not as powerful as most PCs had a standard format that meant everyone (public) could use it and everyone (Developers) could create for it.

This drive to get everyone over to Consoles has meant that there isnt really such a thing as a PC exclusive game anymore

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this dash to console you mention.

The open nature of the PC means that piracy and compatibility can become problematic, affecting the bottom line (either through lost sales or increasing development costs), which is the one thing businesses cannot tolerate. I think publishers saw this, looked at the increasing install base of consoles and figured they'd put their resources where they thought they'd do the most good. Hence the lack of exclusives and crap ports.

And you know what? It seemed to have worked. I daresay piracy is till rampant, but I get the feeling more people are being honest about buying games on PC. It'll be interesting to see how Star Citizen does if it gets made into the game Chris Roberts wants it to be, and what design decisions they implement to mitigate the piracy issue.
I'd love to be able to see into an alternate universe where piracy didn't exist on the PC and look at how the gaming industry was doing over there.

 

[FitScotGaymer]

@DrHammer

That's where you are wrong.

There are a number of increasingly popular developers and publishers that do not use DRM, or use a really low intrusion form of DRM like Steam and consistently report that piracy rates on their games are amongst the lowest in the industry.

CDProjektRED, Paradox Interactive, Stardock. Etc.

The companies that suffer high piracy rates are the companies that put hugely invasive and intrusive DRM onto their games. Pirates take the DRM as a challenge. And bam, cracked.
And then people download these cracked copies so they dont have to deal with nightmarish DRM.

Obviously not all pirates are pirates for that reason. I am sure that many of them are just cheap douches that dont wanna pay money for stuff.

But given the success of companies with an open policy, like CDProjektRED, it seems to me that the majority of "pirates" fall into the aforementioned "lazy gamer" category (as apposed to the "cheap gamers" that pirate).

I think the piracy thing is a false problem. Or perhaps a self perpetuated problem.

 

[Savo]

Is a pc better? Yes. Should we make other people feel like complete and utter shit because of it? No.

Except that its pretty much the other way round. Its not PC users mocking console users, its console users picking fights by demanding everyone recognise that consoles are better then PCs.

I don't see that at all. On this forum and others, I see it either equal or somewhat tilted in the direction of the PC when it comes to people starting arguments over who's gaming machine is better. I actually see much more mocking on the PC side of things rather than the console users.

These arguments make me sad... there is no objectively superior gaming system, each one has stuff the other one doesn't have. People should learn to respect other's opinions, but this is the internet we're talking about after all.

 

[Dr Hammer]

@DrHammer
CDProjektRED, Paradox Interactive, Stardock. Etc.

The companies that suffer high piracy rates are the companies that put hugely invasive and intrusive DRM onto their games. Pirates take the DRM as a challenge. And bam, cracked.
And then people download these cracked copies so they dont have to deal with nightmarish DRM.

That's where you are wrong.

A few months back CDProject started sending letters to people that had been identified as having pirated Witcher 2 asking them for compensation. Before that I think they identified the piracy rate of Witcher 2 to be something like 3-1 (pirated to bought).

I think the key for PC centric developers/publishers is in the marketing - by making games that appeal to people that are unwilling to pirate games and/or are happy to support the companies making these games. Stardock, Paradox and CDP all make/release games for certain markets that aren't what I would consider 'mainstream' (the CoDs, God of War, Assasins Creed, etc. type of games) whether it's by genre or tone. This also ties in with your point of certain companies having really low rates of piracy. I mean, who is going to pirate a Spiderweb game? That's someone with truly no heart/shame.

I think saying people pirate just to avoid DRM is a bit simplistic, I think it's a reason, but there are plenty of others (personally, I suspect people ARE cheap). I do agree crackers are attracted by the lure of a challenge, and while this enables piracy it does not explain it.

Never the less, the facts are the facts. There are few big PC exclusive releases (and certainly waaaaay fewer from the old days). If the companies involved could make more money making games for the PC than console, then why is there such a disparity in the numbers of triple A releases?

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Hasn't it been stated that Witcher 2 is one of the most pirated games right now?

Yes, it's been stated... by people who've never gone back and looked over the numbers and assumptions used to calculate the claim.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

A few months back CDProject started sending letters to people that had been identified as having pirated Witcher 2 asking them for compensation.

By 'a few months back', do you mean last year? When the law firm CDP had contracted to handle the matter started firing off threats and all manner of daft bullshit on the thinnest pretext that forced CDP to step in and terminate the contract with them and publicly announce their ending of that avenue of action? Is that what you mean?

Before that I think they identified the piracy rate of Witcher 2 to be something like 3-1 (pirated to bought).

See my above post... Even if the numbers the calculations were based on are correct, several of the assumptions are laughable... I mean, would you take any piracy claims seriously if the level of piracy claimed was dependent on the average download speed being above 5Mb/s... on public trackers.

 

[Dr Hammer]

A few months back CDProject started sending letters to people that had been identified as having pirated Witcher 2 asking them for compensation.

By 'a few months back', do you mean last year? When the law firm CDP had contracted to handle the matter started firing off threats and all manner of daft bullshit on the thinnest pretext that forced CDP to step in and terminate the contract with them and publicly announce their ending of that avenue of action? Is that what you mean?

Before that I think they identified the piracy rate of Witcher 2 to be something like 3-1 (pirated to bought).

See my above post... Even if the numbers the calculations were based on are correct, several of the assumptions are laughable... I mean, would you take any piracy claims seriously if the level of piracy claimed was dependent on the average download speed being above 5Mb/s... on public trackers.

Yes, this is the incident I am referring to.

It just goes to prove my point that intelligent marketing of a game is important for PC devs/publishers, and that piracy is likely a major factor that drove publishers to the more lucrative console platforms. On a side note it would be interesting to see what CDP would have done if there hadn't been so much negative press around the incident.

 

[FitScotGaymer]

Well I was going by what the companies themselves have said.

That they don't suffer as high piracy rates as some other DRM laden companies.

Also as I said, I wasn't saying that defeating or avoiding DRM was the ONLY reason people pirated. Just that I reckon that many may do so in order to avoid DRM along the lines of um was it starforce? securom? Can't remember off the top of my head the really bad one a few years back.

 

[Dr Hammer]

Well I was going by what the companies themselves have said.

That they don't suffer as high piracy rates as some other DRM laden companies.

Also as I said, I wasn't saying that defeating or avoiding DRM was the ONLY reason people pirated. Just that I reckon that many may do so in order to avoid DRM along the lines of um was it starforce? securom? Can't remember off the top of my head the really bad one a few years back.

I quite agree that draconian DRM doesn't do anything to combat piracy. I might even go as far as to say DRM doesn't work at all. I still have Mass Effect 1 installed on my HDD because I don't want to use up one of my 'installs', even though the chances of me playing it again are practically zero.

But which came first? Did people pirate to avoid DRM or did the publishers start using DRM to stop piracy? And which publishers use the DRM and on which games? Who are these games aimed at?

Personally, I think that if I have legitimately bought a game but the DRM prevented me from playing it I would feel quite virtuous pirating a copy. Sticking it to 'The Man' as it were. But people that skip the 'buying the game' step have no rights to feel morally superior to a publisher using DRM. The argument 'If I am going to be treated as a criminal, I may as well be one and not buy the game in the first place' is a bit immature in my book, but it's the one that people wheel out with depressing regularity.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

It just goes to prove my point that intelligent marketing of a game is important for PC devs/publishers,

No it doesn't. That was a PR cock up not a marketing one.

and that piracy is likely a major factor that drove publishers to the more lucrative console platforms.

Doubtful, no matter what shit they like to spout. What publishers like is the control a closed ecology platform gives them and the buckets of cash Microsoft were giving away back when the Xbox launched to get games developed for it and still give away for shit like 'timed exclusives'.

That isn't to say perceptions on piracy aren't a factor but I doubt they were/are a major one.

On a side note it would be interesting to see what CDP would have done if there hadn't been so much negative press around the incident.

Hard to say... and rests on the issue of whether they stopped the action because of bad press or because they realised the legal firm they hired where a bunch of ambulance chasers.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Hasn't it been stated that Witcher 2 is one of the most pirated games right now?

Yes, it's been stated... by people who've never gone back and looked over the numbers and assumptions used to calculate the claim.

So you are saying that in actuality, Witcher 2 HASN'T been pirated that much,

I'm saying that the calculations include some incorrect assumptions/estimates which wildly skew the numbers upward.

and the developer actually has one of the lowest piracy rates in the industry?

Nope, it's not a binary solution set. Just because it's not 'one of the highest' doesn't automatically make it 'one of the lowest'.

 

[Dr Hammer]

It just goes to prove my point that intelligent marketing of a game is important for PC devs/publishers,

No it doesn't. That was a PR cock up not a marketing one.

and that piracy is likely a major factor that drove publishers to the more lucrative console platforms.

Doubtful, no matter what shit they like to spout. What publishers like is the control a closed ecology platform gives them and the buckets of cash Microsoft were giving away back when the Xbox launched to get games developed for it and still give away for shit like 'timed exclusives'.

That isn't to say perceptions on piracy aren't a factor but I doubt they were/are a major one.

On a side note it would be interesting to see what CDP would have done if there hadn't been so much negative press around the incident.

Hard to say... and rests on the issue of whether they stopped the action because of bad press or because they realised the legal firm they hired where a bunch of ambulance chasers.

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or you just haven't read my earlier post I made before you jumped in?

Companies like money and things like multiple hardware configurations and piracy detract from that. So why not follow the money? Wouldn't you rather take a job that pays more money, if that was the major difference between your current position and one you were considering? I know I would.

 

[Dr Hammer]

Hasn't it been stated that Witcher 2 is one of the most pirated games right now?

Yes, it's been stated... by people who've never gone back and looked over the numbers and assumptions used to calculate the claim.

So you are saying that in actuality, Witcher 2 HASN'T been pirated that much,

I'm saying that the calculations include some incorrect assumptions/estimates which wildly skew the numbers upward.

Any kind of statistical analysis is fraught with validity problems. I'd be interested to hear where you got the data on the incorrect assumptions that were made?

In any case, looking on the most popular Witcher 2 torrent (the SKIDROW one) currently on Pirate Bay there are over 1700 people (leechers and seeders combined) involved with it. And this is for a game well over a year old.

 

[FitScotGaymer]

I don't think piracy rates are really on topic here guys.

I mean, they don't affect PC gamers sneering at console gamers. Frankly I don't think PC gamers do, the only time ive seen it happen is along the lines of the Yahtzee joke about the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race and the Dirty Console Gaming Peasants.